I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Mikey152]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I promise you my dude, nobody wants the Bills WR’s to be a crappy group on paper.

 

everyone here wants them to be awesome.

 

If Coleman is JJ 2.0, the WR group will be good enough to my standards. If he is a normal rookie, I think this will be the weakest group since 2019 that Josh has had.
 

I will enjoy the ride every Sunday, but there’s no reason to lie to ourselves either. I look around the league and I think the Bills are in the bottom 10 as it stands as a WR group. I pay attention to the entire NFL.
 

Why would I pretend differently? Of what benefit is it to me? So we can all hold hands and sing about how great they are while we wait for the season to start?

 

some folks enjoy the actual football aspect as well as being fans of the Bills. Other folks like the Bills exclusively. Neither is wrong for consuming their entertainment the way they would like, but asking folks to lie to themselves is bizarre.

Are there facts about Nate or just opinions?

 

I mean, CLAYPOOL has been shown the door by 3 franchises in 2 seasons. He’s a league minimum guy who by physical talent alone should be worth more in the league.
 

But there can’t be facts that he’s probably gonna suck, just opinions, which are subjective. Right?

Claypool isn't a savior...and I don't think the Bills see him as one.

 

But it is clear that instead of taking late round fliers on WR, they chose to pick up a bunch of recently highly drafted WR that flopped in the NFL to varying degrees for whatever reason.

 

I think the starters are pretty much locked in as Shakir, Samuel, Kincaid and Cook. Only X and how much 12 we play (and who comes off) is really much of a question at this point. If some combination of Coleman and MVS do a decent job, the Bills will be fine.

 

I know what you think of my opinion, and it is whatever...but as someone who has seen ALOT of Curtis Samuel football, we should be excited to hear he is playing flanker and going in motion a lot.

[dgrochester55]

I am confident that the number three and four options this year will do much better than Sherfeld and Harty.  Thrown in an improving Kincaid and Cook and there is no doubt that the ball can be spread around more. 

 

As all of us are aware, the biggest factor is what can the top two options offer.  Shakir, Coleman, Samuel, MVS and Claypool do not have consistent experience as #1 or #2 targets and all have a large gap between their ceiling and floor.  If they play to their potential, we could have an deep group. If they all disappoint, we could have 2018 all over again.  There are a lot of variables and ways that this could go.  

Edited July 24 by dgrochester55

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Avisan said:

Opinions unbacked by any facts are of comparably lower value than opinions backed by a non-zero quantity of facts.

 

Is anybody here making an argument that the Bills' WR room is going to be good because they expect Claypool to be our starting lineup?

That’s just your opinion of opinions.

 

See how silly this rabbit hole gets?

[Avisan]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

That’s just your opinion of opinions.

 

See how silly this rabbit hole gets?

I am very aware that arguments made in bad faith typically fail to lead to productive discussions, yes.

[FireChans]

On 7/23/2024 at 8:13 AM, Mikey152 said:

Let's start with Atlanta, since you named them.

 

Mack Hollins was second on that team in catches and yards last season. He might not even see the field on this team. Pitts and Mooney had 1000 yard seasons in 2021, but haven't really come close since. Honestly, outside of Drake London, Pitts and Mooney (and I guess Rondale Moore from college)...I don't even really know anything about the other guys on their roster aside from the fact that they have like zero production and were late picks or undrafted.

 

And yet, they are #16 on the list. So clearly the #1's are getting a lot of weight and London is seen as an up and comer who just needs a QB. 

 

I'd call TE a wash, I definitely think Samuel is better than Mooney, and the Bills go way deeper. So it really comes down to Drake London, I guess.

Just so we’re clear, Mack Hollins was actually 5th in yards on Atlanta last year. He was also tied for 5th in catches.

 

Jonnu Smith, a garbage TE, and Bijan Robinson, a really good RB, cleared him by a mile in receiving production.

 

maybe it was your subjective opinion that he was second last year?

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Just so we’re clear, Mack Hollins was actually 5th in yards on Atlanta last year. He was also tied for 5th in catches.

 

Jonnu Smith, a garbage TE, and Bijan Robinson, a really good RB, cleared him by a mile in receiving production.

 

maybe it was your subjective opinion that he was second last year?

 

Pass catchers other than WR only count when we're talking about the Bills. Obviously.

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

Claypool isn't a savior...and I don't think the Bills see him as one.

 

But it is clear that instead of taking late round fliers on WR, they chose to pick up a bunch of recently highly drafted WR that flopped in the NFL to varying degrees for whatever reason.

 

I think the starters are pretty much locked in as Shakir, Samuel, Kincaid and Cook. Only X and how much 12 we play (and who comes off) is really much of a question at this point. If some combination of Coleman and MVS do a decent job, the Bills will be fine.

 

I know what you think of my opinion, and it is whatever...but as someone who has seen ALOT of Curtis Samuel football, we should be excited to hear he is playing flanker and going in motion a lot.

so the challenge here:

 

not an insult as I believe both have talent and a spot in the league but… which of shakir and Samuel do you consider a top 30 wr? 
 

Honestly, pen to paper are either confidently top 40? It’s hard to get them there. 
 

if we don’t have a top 40 guy we are talking average WR2 for our top WR?

 

Unless Keon plays much better than the 8th picked WR should, we are looking at a rough overall room.

Edited July 24 by NoSaint

[Avisan]

49 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

Honestly, pen to paper are either confidently top 40? It’s hard to get them there.

Shakir's production under Brady extrapolates out to 906 yards over 17 games, which would have been 34th highest among all pass catchers last season.  That wasn't particularly difficult, unless you think we'll be unable or unwilling to use Shakir in the same way we did under Brady last season.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

38 minutes ago, Avisan said:

Shakir's production under Brady extrapolates out to 906 yards over 17 games, which would have been 34th highest among all pass catchers last season.  That wasn't particularly difficult, unless you think we'll be unable or unwilling to use Shakir in the same way we did under Brady last season.

yay! Our WR1 is 34th best. Do you hear what you’re stretching to say?

 

the truth is we needed to add to last years group. There was talk of adding a true #2 or 1B to compliment Diggs and push Davis to #3

 

instead both are gone and we have a second round rookie and some bottom of the roster players for depth. 

[Avisan]

8 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

yay! Our WR1 is 34th best. Do you hear what you’re stretching to say?

 

the truth is we needed to add to last years group. There was talk of adding a true #2 or 1B to compliment Diggs and push Davis to #3

 

instead both are gone and we have a second round rookie and some bottom of the roster players for depth. 

?

 

I was addressing a specific argument because it was quantifiable and therefore easy to address.  It ends the ambiguity and allows the conversation to progress based on that shared reality.

[Mikey152]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Just so we’re clear, Mack Hollins was actually 5th in yards on Atlanta last year. He was also tied for 5th in catches.

 

Jonnu Smith, a garbage TE, and Bijan Robinson, a really good RB, cleared him by a mile in receiving production.

 

maybe it was your subjective opinion that he was second last year?

We both know I was talking about receivers. But great job grabbing a post from a few pages back, not actually commenting on any of the points or telling me why the falcons TE and WR are 12 spots better, and pointing out my error. Not enough bad news today to gloat about, I guess.

 

you win. You’ve officially killed the thread. 

[NoSaint]

50 minutes ago, Avisan said:

?

 

I was addressing a specific argument because it was quantifiable and therefore easy to address.  It ends the ambiguity and allows the conversation to progress based on that shared reality.

yea, like I said, top 30 really tough, top 40 with work, right? And I think just yards is a tough metric to rank guys on solely. You know, injuries, poor qb play, incoming rookies. We project his best stretch to 17 healthy games with a top qb but probably a handful of other guys would push up if you did the same. 
 

if you just take a list of the top 100 wrs and start sorting ours… it gets hard to push anyone above 40. A few places I’ve seen start our best one around 50, which is basically dead center of the WR2 group (I’ve never thought 45 vs 55 is any real distinction for instance)

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

so the challenge here:

 

not an insult as I believe both have talent and a spot in the league but… which of shakir and Samuel do you consider a top 30 wr? 
 

Honestly, pen to paper are either confidently top 40? It’s hard to get them there. 
 

if we don’t have a top 40 guy we are talking average WR2 for our top WR?

 

Unless Keon plays much better than the 8th picked WR should, we are looking at a rough overall room.

 

And we have nobody who has even proven to be that. Curtis Samuel has one year of that type of production in his seven year career (reason to be optimistic it was with this OC). Shakir might still be ascending but hasn't proven to be that yet and MVS is clearly proven to be a #3. 

 

If we get low end #2 type production - say 700-750 yards and 4 or 5 TDs - that would be a reasonable outcome given prior production.

[Lfod]

So I think this thread boils down to how people see the glass that is half full or half empty. I really can understand both sides but not to the extremes that some go. 

 

In some ways I am a little skeptical. At the very least, any WR walking through the door is getting a monster at QB. I don't know about this OC. I am not sold all the way yet. I need to see a full season, without pulling a dorsey and getting predictible. 

 

I think the real place I disagree with people is that I understand why it has to be this way and I still buy into the process. It might get ugly but this in the opening of a new window. 

 

 

 

 

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

We both know I was talking about receivers. But great job grabbing a post from a few pages back, not actually commenting on any of the points or telling me why the falcons TE and WR are 12 spots better, and pointing out my error. Not enough bad news today to gloat about, I guess.

 

you win. You’ve officially killed the thread. 

Lmao you said Mack Hollins was their #2  last year (he wasn’t) and he may not see the field here this year. It was the crux of your argument as to why we should be ranked higher on Sharp’s weapons ranking (which included TE)
 

It was intentionally misleading at best. Nobody fact checked you because they assumed you wouldnt be low enough do such a thing. Dishonesty knows no bounds I suppose.

Edited July 25 by FireChans

[bobobonators]

15 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

Claypool isn't a savior...and I don't think the Bills see him as one.

 

But it is clear that instead of taking late round fliers on WR, they chose to pick up a bunch of recently highly drafted WR that flopped in the NFL to varying degrees for whatever reason.

 

I think the starters are pretty much locked in as Shakir, Samuel, Kincaid and Cook. Only X and how much 12 we play (and who comes off) is really much of a question at this point. If some combination of Coleman and MVS do a decent job, the Bills will be fine.

 

I know what you think of my opinion, and it is whatever...but as someone who has seen ALOT of Curtis Samuel football, we should be excited to hear he is playing flanker and going in motion a lot.

For real. Samuel wasted away in DC - he’s Deebo Samuel light. I’m psyched. 

[Doc]

12 hours ago, FireChans said:

Just so we’re clear, Mack Hollins was actually 5th in yards on Atlanta last year. He was also tied for 5th in catches.

 

Jonnu Smith, a garbage TE, and Bijan Robinson, a really good RB, cleared him by a mile in receiving production.

 

maybe it was your subjective opinion that he was second last year?

 

That's because Hollins only had 30 targets.

 

12 hours ago, NoSaint said:

so the challenge here:

 

not an insult as I believe both have talent and a spot in the league but… which of shakir and Samuel do you consider a top 30 wr? 
 

Honestly, pen to paper are either confidently top 40? It’s hard to get them there. 
 

if we don’t have a top 40 guy we are talking average WR2 for our top WR?

 

Unless Keon plays much better than the 8th picked WR should, we are looking at a rough overall room.

 

The Packers didn't have a receiver in the top-40.  Is it that important to have one in the top 30?

[ddaryl]

Josh Allen should be better not having a true highly paid #1 WR. He no longer has to look Diggs way to make sure he is involved and force throws to him. I see a offense where we have multiple contribuors and D's won't be able to shift to accomodate that #1 WR because someone else will be open.

Only time/games played will answer this.

[NoSaint]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And we have nobody who has even proven to be that. Curtis Samuel has one year of that type of production in his seven year career (reason to be optimistic it was with this OC). Shakir might still be ascending but hasn't proven to be that yet and MVS is clearly proven to be a #3. 

 

If we get low end #2 type production - say 700-750 yards and 4 or 5 TDs - that would be a reasonable outcome given prior production.

someone, maybe multiple, should have career production years- we will have a certain level of passing production and SOMEONE will catch those passes. 
 

will those guys be playing better than they previously have, or will they just be getting volume? That answer will go a long way to defining our offense 

22 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

That's because Hollins only had 30 targets.

 

 

The Packers didn't have a receiver in the top-40.  Is it that important to have one in the top 30?

Brady was drafted in the 6th but is it your business model? 
 

also, Watson would be wr1 here 

 

also, also, when did their season end?

[Magox]

I can envision a realistic scenario that as a whole the entire receiving group including RB's and TE's will perform at a highly efficient level without any WR being considered a top 15% WR in the league.

 

Samuels is going to surprise people this year, he's a much better intermediate route runner than people realize.

 

Shakir is going to continue to ascend and be another productive receiver.

 

Coleman will have a better rookie season than I think people are expecting out of him for this year.  I think he's going to be a really good red zone target and will bail out Josh similar to what Diggs and Davis would do on those scramble plays.

 

The other wide receivers will perform better than most WR 4 and WR 5's in the league.

 

Dalton Kincaid is going to break out and become a household name.

 

Knox will be a top end TE #2 in the league.

 

Cook is an upper tier receiving RB

 

Ray Davis will show that he is a quality receiving RB

 

Ty Johnson/Gore will also get their catches when given opportunities.

 

As a whole the receiving group I think will perform better than TBD expectations.