I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[MikePJ76]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I agree.  I would say if they don’t like the way the WRs are shaping up Beane may go get a guy like Adams or Aiyuk in a trade.  But doubtful.

I really don't see that happening.  They got burned chasing saviors in Diggs and Miller.

 

They have a lot of draft capital and can move around in the draft or just sign someone in free agency next year.  

 

I really think the days of them signing another wr who wants out and makes a lot of money are over.  Unless it is like a 1 year guy who makes moderate money I don't see them adding.  they seemed to have set a new course.  Younger players to grow together all respecting the QB.  Saviors that come in to save the day like diggs will be seen as above the qb on the pecking order again and that is not good for the locker room.

 

If you want the ultimate examples go ask Donovan McNabb and Tony Romo about T.O. or Tom Brady about Antonio Brown.  

 

I think and hope they have learned their lesson about the WR as savior.

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

I was going to write a long post, but I guess I have a simpler question for you…

 

What makes a football player better or worse than another football player, in your mind? Their draft slot, their production, their size, their 40 time? When you say “objectively” what exactly do you mean, because all I have seen is subjectivity. 
 

if we can leave this thread agreeing on anything, it should be the fact that ANYBODYS take on where the Bills WR rank in a season that hasn’t even happened yet is 100% subjective (ie an opinion) supported by whatever objective facts they deem appropriate (thus making it subjective). 
 

Because it is subjective…it can also be (shocker) wrong. And it happens A LOT in football. Like more than people are right if we are being honest. So why be so pressed? 

I keep using talent, pedigree and production. Justin Shorter was the number 3 WR recruit in the country.https://n.rivals.com/content/athletes/justin-shorter-17797?view=pv I’d put that in the pedigree category. His production in college would probably say that his talent was a little overrated. The production isn’t good. He would be 1 out of 3. Production trumps all. 

Objectively, would be the “not influenced by personal feelings” definition. Feel free to look it up. There is no bias in my analysis of this group. It is an emotionless opinion. When I discuss the Bills on this thread I try to provide OBJECTIVE analysis.

Edited July 24 by Kirby Jackson

[Mikey152]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I keep using talent, pedigree and production. Justin Shorter was the number 3 WR recruit in the country.https://n.rivals.com/content/athletes/justin-shorter-17797?view=pv I’d put that in the pedigree category. His production in college would probably say that his talent was a little overrated. The production isn’t good. He would be 1 out of 3. Production trumps all. 

Objectively, would be the “not influenced by personal feelings” definition. Feel free to look it up. There is no bias in my analysis of this group. It is an emotionless opinion. When I discuss the Bills on this thread I try to provide OBJECTIVE analysis.

I know what the difference between objective and subjective is…I am a scientist.

 

If you can put “I think” “We think” or “he thinks” in front of what you are saying, it’s an opinion. THAT is a fact.

 

“I think the Bills receivers will be terrible in 2024”

 

”Warren sharp thinks the Bills are the 28th best receiver group”

 

Neither of these are facts. They are opinions. To make them objective, you would need to say something like “Based on historical production, the Buffalo Bills have the 28th least productive WR group in the NFL. Teams with historically poor production from WR are often unsuccessful” That could be a fact, I guess. But you’ll notice the distinction…it only talks about what has happened (ie facts) not on what will happen (ie opinion)

 

the reason your post isn’t a fact is because there are exceptions to everything you claim. Exceptions that have been pointed out countless times in this thread. You and your ilk continuously choose to not acknowledge this bias in your findings. 

they have a term for that…it’s called confirmation bias.

 

what is fascinating to me about all of this is most of us are Bills fans. The thing I am leaving this thread with isn’t even anything about the receivers…it’s really about fan frustration. Between the receivers, the coaches, the FO…there are quite a few bitter fans out there.
 

Honestly, that amazes me. During the drought, I totally got it. I probably even get wrapped up in it. “You” are so focused on a SB you started hating the thing you love. The truth is, it probably won’t even get better if and when they do win. It will never be enough, because the problem isn’t the players or the coaches or the FO…it’s you and your perspective on football and life.

Edited July 24 by Mikey152

[Meatloaf63]

33 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I know what the difference between objective and subjective is…I am a scientist.

 

If you can put “I think” “We think” or “he thinks” in front of what you are saying, it’s an opinion. THAT is a fact.

 

“I think the Bills receivers will be terrible in 2024”

 

”Warren sharp thinks the Bills are the 28th best receiver group”

 

Neither of these are facts. They are opinions. To make them objective, you would need to say something like “Based on historical production, the Buffalo Bills have the 28th least productive WR group in the NFL. Teams with historically poor production from WR are often unsuccessful” That could be a fact, I guess. But you’ll notice the distinction…it only talks about what has happened (ie facts) not on what will happen (ie opinion)

 

the reason your post isn’t a fact is because there are exceptions to everything you claim. Exceptions that have been pointed out countless times in this thread. You and your ilk continuously choose to not acknowledge this bias in your findings. 

they have a term for that…it’s called confirmation bias.

 

what is fascinating to me about all of this is most of us are Bills fans. The thing I am leaving this thread with isn’t even anything about the receivers…it’s really about fan frustration. Between the receivers, the coaches, the FO…there are quite a few bitter fans out there.
 

Honestly, that amazes me. During the drought, I totally got it. I probably even get wrapped up in it. “You” are so focused on a SB you started hating the thing you love. The truth is, it probably won’t even get better if and when they do win. It will never be enough, because the problem isn’t the players or the coaches or the FO…it’s you and your perspective on football and life.

Very well written response…

[FireChans]

35 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I know what the difference between objective and subjective is…I am a scientist.

 

If you can put “I think” “We think” or “he thinks” in front of what you are saying, it’s an opinion. THAT is a fact.

 

“I think the Bills receivers will be terrible in 2024”

 

”Warren sharp thinks the Bills are the 28th best receiver group”

 

Neither of these are facts. They are opinions. To make them objective, you would need to say something like “Based on historical production, the Buffalo Bills have the 28th least productive WR group in the NFL. Teams with historically poor production from WR are often unsuccessful” That could be a fact, I guess. But you’ll notice the distinction…it only talks about what has happened (ie facts) not on what will happen (ie opinion)

 

the reason your post isn’t a fact is because there are exceptions to everything you claim. Exceptions that have been pointed out countless times in this thread. You and your ilk continuously choose to not acknowledge this bias in your findings. 

they have a term for that…it’s called confirmation bias.

 

what is fascinating to me about all of this is most of us are Bills fans. The thing I am leaving this thread with isn’t even anything about the receivers…it’s really about fan frustration. Between the receivers, the coaches, the FO…there are quite a few bitter fans out there.
 

Honestly, that amazes me. During the drought, I totally got it. I probably even get wrapped up in it. “You” are so focused on a SB you started hating the thing you love. The truth is, it probably won’t even get better if and when they do win. It will never be enough, because the problem isn’t the players or the coaches or the FO…it’s you and your perspective on football and life.

Lmao. 
 

Here’s the definition of bias.

 

Here’s my reasons why it’s your failure as a fan to think the WR room sucks.

 

bad take palooza CONTINUES

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

I know what the difference between objective and subjective is…I am a scientist.

 

If you can put “I think” “We think” or “he thinks” in front of what you are saying, it’s an opinion. THAT is a fact.

 

“I think the Bills receivers will be terrible in 2024”

 

”Warren sharp thinks the Bills are the 28th best receiver group”

 

Neither of these are facts. They are opinions. To make them objective, you would need to say something like “Based on historical production, the Buffalo Bills have the 28th least productive WR group in the NFL. Teams with historically poor production from WR are often unsuccessful” That could be a fact, I guess. But you’ll notice the distinction…it only talks about what has happened (ie facts) not on what will happen (ie opinion)

 

the reason your post isn’t a fact is because there are exceptions to everything you claim. Exceptions that have been pointed out countless times in this thread. You and your ilk continuously choose to not acknowledge this bias in your findings. 

they have a term for that…it’s called confirmation bias.

 

what is fascinating to me about all of this is most of us are Bills fans. The thing I am leaving this thread with isn’t even anything about the receivers…it’s really about fan frustration. Between the receivers, the coaches, the FO…there are quite a few bitter fans out there.
 

Honestly, that amazes me. During the drought, I totally got it. I probably even get wrapped up in it. “You” are so focused on a SB you started hating the thing you love. The truth is, it probably won’t even get better if and when they do win. It will never be enough, because the problem isn’t the players or the coaches or the FO…it’s you and your perspective on football and life.

Um, it is a fact that Warren Sharp ranked them 28th. That it his opinion. Both are true. His opinion is based on his analysis of data (like a scientist). 
 

My perspective and expectation is Super Bowl appearances. Their point differential and 40 straight games without a loss over 6 points supports that. I spend hundreds of hours a year and tens of thousands of dollars annually on this team. My commitment isn’t in question. I hold them to the standard that they should be held to. In 2017, I was thrilled with a playoff appearance. In 2023, I was not thrilled with another Divisional Round loss. 

[Mikey152]

12 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Um, it is a fact that Warren Sharp ranked them 28th. That it his opinion. Both are true. His opinion is based on his analysis of data (like a scientist). 
 

My perspective and expectation is Super Bowl appearances. Their point differential and 40 straight games without a loss over 6 points supports that. I spend hundreds of hours a year and tens of thousands of dollars annually on this team. My commitment isn’t in question. I hold them to the standard that they should be held to. In 2017, I was thrilled with a playoff appearance. In 2023, I was not thrilled with another Divisional Round loss. 

Do you think maybe that frustration might have some influence on your opinion?

 

Also, for the record...that's not how scientific method works. If it were scientific, according to his observations his hypothesis would be the Bills are 28th best based on whatever his criteria is, and the season would would either confirm or deny it.

 

Either way, a hypothesis is really just an informed guess. If a scientist were to claim his hypothesis is correct without testing it, he isnt much of a scientist

 

Just curious what you think of all the twitter notes from practice today...guess it's time to start worrying about the defense if they can't shut these scrubs down, huh?

Edited July 24 by Mikey152

[BullBuchanan]

3 hours ago, MikePJ76 said:

I really don't see that happening.  They got burned chasing saviors in Diggs and Miller.

 

They have a lot of draft capital and can move around in the draft or just sign someone in free agency next year.  

 

I really think the days of them signing another wr who wants out and makes a lot of money are over.  Unless it is like a 1 year guy who makes moderate money I don't see them adding.  they seemed to have set a new course.  Younger players to grow together all respecting the QB.  Saviors that come in to save the day like diggs will be seen as above the qb on the pecking order again and that is not good for the locker room.

 

If you want the ultimate examples go ask Donovan McNabb and Tony Romo about T.O. or Tom Brady about Antonio Brown.  

 

I think and hope they have learned their lesson about the WR as savior.

They didn't get "burned" at all with Diggs. With him on the roster JA put together his best season ever as a pro, and diggs was in the top 5 in the league 3 of his years and top 12 int he 4th.

[Avisan]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Lmao. 
 

Here’s the definition of bias.

 

Here’s my reasons why it’s your failure as a fan to think the WR room sucks.

 

bad take palooza CONTINUES

You can think the WR room sucks all you want-- once you start insisting that it is a fact that the WR room sucks, or that it's preposterous to think they might be decent, is where things get hairy.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

Do you think maybe that frustration might have some influence on your opinion?

 

Also, for the record...that's not how scientific method works. If it were scientific, according to his observations his hypothesis would be the Bills are 28th best based on whatever his criteria is, and the season would would either confirm or deny it.

 

Either way, a hypothesis is really just an informed guess. If a scientist were to claim his hypothesis is correct without testing it, he isnt much of a scientist

 

Just curious what you think of all the twitter notes from practice today...guess it's time to start worrying about the defense if they can't shut these scrubs down, huh?

Lol, I didn’t say that his opinion was factual. I said that it is a fact that he ranked them 28th. It is.

 

Thoughts on practice is Kincaid is the guy that has a chance to be a stud. It sounds like he was today. They need that. He can be a top 5 TE and is probably a top 10 TE today. It’s the WRs that I think aren’t very good. I hope that I’m wrong. One practice, in shorts, isn’t changing my thoughts on anything. Opinions are the same now as before. I’m not sure why you take issue, that a bunch of guys with spotty production/resume/pedigree are concerning? Why should we be optimistic? Aren’t those the elements that would lead someone to be optimistic? 

[NoSaint]

9 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Lol, I didn’t say that his opinion was factual. I said that it is a fact that he ranked them 28th. It is.

 

Thoughts on practice is Kincaid is the guy that has a chance to be a stud. It sounds like he was today. They need that. He can be a top 5 TE and is probably a top 10 TE today. It’s the WRs that I think aren’t very good. I hope that I’m wrong. One practice, in shorts, isn’t changing my thoughts on anything. Opinions are the same now as before. I’m not sure why you take issue, that a bunch of guys with spotty production/resume/pedigree are concerning? Why should we be optimistic? Aren’t those the elements that would lead someone to be optimistic? 

its wild to watch him argue definitions but have it fly by him that you can state that someone factually has a stated opinion on the subject. 
 

that he ranked them 28 is a fact. That opinion was derived from whatever analysis he made of the various groups. 

[Alphadawg7]

55 minutes ago, Avisan said:

You can think the WR room sucks all you want-- once you start insisting that it is a fact that the WR room sucks, or that it's preposterous to think they might be decent, is where things get hairy.

 

Guess what you won't see...any of the usual suspects here in the training camp thread liking or commenting on any of the positive news today.  It is day 1, nothing will be proven or disproven with any single day of camp/practice/preseason.  But to not even as a fan take in some enjoyment from seeing a positive start is the same thing they do all season long where they barely post, if at all, in a week with a big win and then all over the board flaming everything and everyone in a week with a loss.  If the news today was bad, they would be ALL OVER that negative stuff in here and they know it.

 

Whether true or not, it just comes across as an insistence on being right about their negative bias than actually really wanting to see the team/players prove them wrong.  Nothing wrong with with having a negative opinion or view on any Bills topic...but maybe now that camp is open they should just put the bias and agenda in the background and smile and enjoy the good stuff when it happens too 👍

 

Edited July 24 by Alphadawg7

[Mikey152]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

its wild to watch him argue definitions but have it fly by him that you can state that someone factually has a stated opinion on the subject. 
 

that he ranked them 28 is a fact. That opinion was derived from whatever analysis he made of the various groups. 

Fly by me? Of course it is a fact he wrote that...the ranking is the opinion.

 

Not sure this is the gotcha you think it is...I never debated that Warren Sharp ranked them 28th...clearly he did.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Fly by me? Of course it is a fact he wrote that...the ranking is the opinion.

 

Not sure this is the gotcha you think it is...I never debated that Warren Sharp ranked them 28th...clearly he did.

Warren Sharp is a bad Bills fans too apparently. He will just never be happy.

2 hours ago, Avisan said:

You can think the WR room sucks all you want-- once you start insisting that it is a fact that the WR room sucks, or that it's preposterous to think they might be decent, is where things get hairy.

It’s about as close to a fact as you can get. The only way the WR room could get worse is if Coleman was proven mediocre commodity in the league. He is the only saving grace that he’s basically unproven.

 

otherwise, why can’t we believe that maybe Nate Peterman can still be a franchise guy?

Edited July 24 by FireChans

[Avisan]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

It’s about as close to a fact as you can get.

 

otherwise, why can’t we believe that maybe Nate Peterman can still be a franchise guy?

Oof, this is a rough take, and a rough comparison.

 

Five out of our expected top 6 have had seasons as productive NFL players with significant roles.  One of those five is a reclamation project, unrelated to his physical talent.  The remaining player is a rookie that has NFL size and talent.

 

Nathan Peterman has exactly zero games against NFL starters that show he can even be a stopgap. 

 

Not all hypotheticals are equally likely.

[Mikey152]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Warren Sharp is a bad Bills fans too apparently. He will just never be happy.

First off, I read the article...It said Warren Sharp analysis team, whoever that is.

 

 

And they even said the rankings were based on whatever criteria the voter decided was appropriate. It's not hard to see how someone would look at the Bills receivers and think they are bad...Coleman is a bust, Shakir has short arms, Samuel is a gadget guy, MVS can't catch, Claypool is a head case and who the heck is Mack Hollins. That's probably what most people think. Most of those statements even have some truth to them. It's just not the whole truth.

 

I really need to follow my instincts and push away from this thread once and for all. There really is no point. It will be exactly like Alpha said...If theyre good, there will be some excuse like "I did say if Keon or Kincaid stepped up, they might be ok" and if they are bad, full of I told you so.

 

Im not trying to be right. Im not even trying to make a prediction. Im just saying that maybe you should enjoy the ride a little instead of assuming it is gonna suck before it even starts. "Worrying only means you suffer twice"

 

Trying to convince Bills fans their team doesn't suck is just strange.

 

Edited July 24 by Mikey152

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, Avisan said:

Oof, this is a rough take, and a rough comparison.

 

Five out of our expected top 6 have had seasons as productive NFL players with significant roles.  One of those five is a reclamation project, unrelated to his physical talent.  The remaining player is a rookie that has NFL size and talent.

 

Nathan Peterman has exactly zero games against NFL starters that show he can even be a stopgap. 

 

Not all hypotheticals are equally likely.

It’s the same logic, yeah?

 

We don’t know anything about Nate in 2024. Who knows if he could be great? There are no facts about him sucking, just opinions, which are subjective. 

[Avisan]

Just now, FireChans said:

It’s the same logic, yeah?

 

We don’t know anything about Nate in 2024. Who knows if he could be great? There are no facts about him sucking, just opinions, which are subjective. 

Surely you can do better than this, right?

 

...Right?

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

First off, I read the article...It said Warren Sharp analysis team, whoever that is.

 

 

And they even said the rankings were based on whatever criteria the voter decided was appropriate. It's not hard to see how someone would look at the Bills receivers and think they are bad...Coleman is a bust, Shakir has short arms, Samuel is a gadget guy, MVS can't catch, Claypool is a head case and who the heck is Mack Hollins. That's probably what most people think. Most of those statements even have some truth to them. It's just not the whole truth.

 

I really need to follow my instincts and push away from this thread once and for all. There really is no point. It will be exactly like Alpha said...If theyre good, there will be some excuse like "I did say if Keon or Kincaid stepped up, they might be ok" and if they are bad, full of I told you so.

 

Im not trying to be right. Im not even trying to make a prediction. Im just saying that maybe you should enjoy the ride a little instead of assuming it is gonna suck before it even starts. "Worrying only means you suffer twice"

 

Trying to convince Bills fans their team doesn't suck is just strange.

 

I promise you my dude, nobody wants the Bills WR’s to be a crappy group on paper.

 

everyone here wants them to be awesome.

 

If Coleman is JJ 2.0, the WR group will be good enough to my standards. If he is a normal rookie, I think this will be the weakest group since 2019 that Josh has had.
 

I will enjoy the ride every Sunday, but there’s no reason to lie to ourselves either. I look around the league and I think the Bills are in the bottom 10 as it stands as a WR group. I pay attention to the entire NFL.
 

Why would I pretend differently? Of what benefit is it to me? So we can all hold hands and sing about how great they are while we wait for the season to start?

 

some folks enjoy the actual football aspect as well as being fans of the Bills. Other folks like the Bills exclusively. Neither is wrong for consuming their entertainment the way they would like, but asking folks to lie to themselves is bizarre.

3 minutes ago, Avisan said:

Surely you can do better than this, right?

 

...Right?

Are there facts about Nate or just opinions?

 

I mean, CLAYPOOL has been shown the door by 3 franchises in 2 seasons. He’s a league minimum guy who by physical talent alone should be worth more in the league.
 

But there can’t be facts that he’s probably gonna suck, just opinions, which are subjective. Right?

[Avisan]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Are there facts about Nate or just opinions?

 

I mean, CLAYPOOL has been shown the door by 3 franchises in 2 seasons. He’s a league minimum guy who by physical talent alone should be worth more in the league.
 

But there can’t be facts that he’s probably gonna suck, just opinions, which are subjective. Right?

Opinions unbacked by any facts are of comparably lower value than opinions backed by a non-zero quantity of facts.

 

Is anybody here making an argument that the Bills' WR room is going to be good because they expect Claypool to be our starting lineup?