I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Mikey152]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Everything is an objective opinion at the point. This is an objective opinion from a person that’s career is evaluating this stuff. I share a similar opinion. 
 

It’s fine to be optimistic or pessimistic. I’ve elected realistic. At this point, there is no reason to believe that they are better than that. The resumes and pedigrees of most of the roster doesn’t support optimism. Could they overachieve? Sure? If they overachieve, that could catapult them to 22 perhaps? That’s still not good enough.
 

When you have Josh Allen, his weapons shouldn’t be outside of the top 10. His job shouldn’t be to overcome the limitations of the guys around him. They should be amplifying his immense talents. 

This is subjective, not objective. 
 

Objective - The Bills were the 28th least productive receiving core in 2023, based on yards (or whatever)

 

Subjective - The Bills have the 28th best Wr core for 2024, based on their 2023 production (or whatever reason) 

 

the objective statement is a fact, the subjective statement is an opinion based on facts. What makes it subjective is your statement is based on evidence you have deemed important. You defined what productive means, what talented means, etc. those are opinions, not facts. That is why this thread is so many pages…it is full of opinions. 
 

Opinions are fine…everyone has them. This thread however, has been incredibly disrespectful…mostly because some opinions are being presented as objective facts.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

This is subjective, not objective. 
 

Objective - The Bills were the 28th least productive receiving core in 2023, based on yards (or whatever)

 

Subjective - The Bills have the 28th best Wr core for 2024, based on their 2023 production (or whatever reason) 

 

the objective statement is a fact, the subjective statement is an opinion based on facts. What makes it subjective is your statement is based on evidence you have deemed important. You defined what productive means, what talented means, etc. those are opinions, not facts. That is why this thread is so many pages…it is full of opinions. 
 

Opinions are fine…everyone has them. This thread however, has been incredibly disrespectful…mostly because some opinions are being presented as objective facts.

Objective: Isabella, Claypool, Hamler and MVS all flamed out in their previous stops. Feel free to dispute that if you believe that not to be a fact. 
 

Keon Coleman was the 8th WR drafted. 
 

Khalil Shakir has 49 career catches.

 

Curtis Samuel has averaged 45 catches a year. 
 

Lol, Warren Sharp ranked them 28th based on talent, pedigree and resumes (I presume). Feel free to dispute it but list the teams that you THINK are worse. Don’t just say you don’t agree. Support your point. List the teams that are worse.

Edited July 23 by Kirby Jackson

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

When you have Josh Allen, his weapons shouldn’t be outside of the top 10. His job shouldn’t be to overcome the limitations of the guys around him. They should be amplifying his immense talents. 

 

I can live with a year of them being outside top 10 for a year while they are in a mini reset mode. But the last offseason where anyone would legitimately have made a realistic argument the Bills have "upgraded" the WR room is 2021 when they "upgraded" Brown with Sanders. I think that was at best a marginal gain but you could make the argument. That means we have now gone through three offseasons without any serious attempt to upgrade the wide receiver room. That shouldn't happen when you have Josh, because if you are standing still you are getting worse. 

[BillsVet]

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I can live with a year of them being outside top 10 for a year while they are in a mini reset mode. But the last offseason where anyone would legitimately have made a realistic argument the Bills have "upgraded" the WR room is 2021 when they "upgraded" Brown with Sanders. I think that was at best a marginal gain but you could make the argument. That means we have now gone through three offseasons without any serious attempt to upgrade the wide receiver room. That shouldn't happen when you have Josh, because if you are standing still you are getting worse. 

 

Looking back, their significant moves at WR amount to:

 

2017: Draft Z. Jones (trade up in 2nd) and trade for Benjamin (cost a 3rd)

2018: ?

2019: Signed Brown and Beasley in UFA 

2020: Trade for Diggs (cost a 1st) and perhaps G. Davis in 4th

2021: Sign E. Sanders in UFA to 1 year deal

2022: ?

2023: ?

2024: Sign Samuel in UFA and draft Coleman (2x trade downs in 2nd)

 

Slim investment at a position of high positional value...particularly when the draft regularly offers talent.  And yeah, shouldn't happen with Josh as your QB.  

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

This is subjective, not objective. 
 

Objective - The Bills were the 28th least productive receiving core in 2023, based on yards (or whatever)

 

Subjective - The Bills have the 28th best Wr core for 2024, based on their 2023 production (or whatever reason) 

 

the objective statement is a fact, the subjective statement is an opinion based on facts. What makes it subjective is your statement is based on evidence you have deemed important. You defined what productive means, what talented means, etc. those are opinions, not facts. That is why this thread is so many pages…it is full of opinions. 
 

Opinions are fine…everyone has them. This thread however, has been incredibly disrespectful…mostly because some opinions are being presented as objective facts.

Just list the teams you think are better or worse than the Bills WR’s.

If your subjective take is that we are the 10th best group or whatever, post it.

 

If you won’t, it just means you don’t really believe it lol.

Edited July 23 by FireChans

[MikePJ76]

Just now, FireChans said:

Just list what teams you have the Bills WR’s better 

If your subjective take is that we are the 10th best group or whatever, post it.

 

If you won’t, it just means you don’t really believe it lol.

This isn't my fight but I have to butt in and ask.

 

Why are you so concerned with where a wr group ranks?  Also who is doing the ranking and what are they basing it on.

 

Isn't it more important that the Bills have a good offensive unit that works well together?  

 

Outside of fantasy football I fail to see the obsession over the wr group rankings.

[Mikey152]

45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I can live with a year of them being outside top 10 for a year while they are in a mini reset mode. But the last offseason where anyone would legitimately have made a realistic argument the Bills have "upgraded" the WR room is 2021 when they "upgraded" Brown with Sanders. I think that was at best a marginal gain but you could make the argument. That means we have now gone through three offseasons without any serious attempt to upgrade the wide receiver room. That shouldn't happen when you have Josh, because if you are standing still you are getting worse. 

2021 really shot us in the foot in this regard...

 

Gabe had that big game against KC, Stef was hitting the weight room, McKenzie had that breakout game against the Patriots...I just don't think we thought we needed a guy, but we did draft Shakir. They were clearly wrong. In 2023 draft, they were clearly going to address it, but all the viable WR were taken ahead of the Bills so they took a TE instead. I looked, and aside from Puka I don't really see any other receivers they could have drafted instead of Torrence without trading up.

[FireChans]

Just now, MikePJ76 said:

This isn't my fight but I have to butt in and ask.

 

Why are you so concerned with where a wr group ranks?  Also who is doing the ranking and what are they basing it on.

 

Isn't it more important that the Bills have a good offensive unit that works well together?  

 

Outside of fantasy football I fail to see the obsession over the wr group rankings.

It’s about the talent at the position relative to the rest of the NFL ie our competition to win the Lombardi trophy

 

If you don’t care about how good the WR’s are, go ahead and have that take. 

[MikePJ76]

Just now, FireChans said:

It’s about the talent at the position relative to the rest of the NFL ie our competition to win the Lombardi trophy

 

If you don’t care about how good the WR’s are, go ahead and have that take. 

To be clear,

 

I do not care where the bills wr group is ranked.  

 

I am pretty comfortable with their talent level.

[FireChans]

Just now, MikePJ76 said:

To be clear,

 

I do not care where the bills wr group is ranked.  

 

I am pretty comfortable with their talent level.

Okay.

 

I am not comfortable with their talent level. I think they are full of guys who actually kinda suck and/or are unproven and/or who are limited compared to the NFL at large.
 

I think anyone who argues to the contrary but also won’t rate their talent compared to the NFL at large is at best a coward and at worst completely dishonest.

[MikePJ76]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Okay.

 

I am not comfortable with their talent level. I think they are full of guys who actually kinda suck and/or are unproven and/or who are limited compared to the NFL at large.
 

I think anyone who argues to the contrary but also won’t rate their talent compared to the NFL at large is at best a coward and at worst completely dishonest.

That's fair.  We all have our own opinions.

[Mikey152]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Just list the teams you think are better or worse than the Bills WR’s.

If your subjective take is that we are the 10th best group or whatever, post it.

 

If you won’t, it just means you don’t really believe it lol.

I have never really had ANY subjective takes in this thread. Certainly not one that compares them directly to other teams. Mostly because I understand that there are several variables that go into a passing game.

 

But, objectively speaking, here is what I know: The Bills projected 6 WR (Coleman, Samuel, Shakir, Claypool, MVS and Hollins) are considerably bigger and faster than last season, and their catch rates are generally better than the guys they are replacing. Better or worse is TBD, but they are certainly different. It could be a much better group than it looks like on paper is all I have ever said. They aren't a bunch of UDFAs or even late round picks.

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Okay.

 

I am not comfortable with their talent level. I think they are full of guys who actually kinda suck and/or are unproven and/or who are limited compared to the NFL at large.
 

I think anyone who argues to the contrary but also won’t rate their talent compared to the NFL at large is at best a coward and at worst completely dishonest.

I don't know you from anyone, and you don't know me...why on earth would our rating matter?  So you can argue with whatever stats or observations you think are important?

 

You understand that there is no right answer, right?  

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Mikey152 said:

I have never really had ANY subjective takes in this thread. Certainly not one that compares them directly to other teams. Mostly because I understand that there are several variables that go into a passing game.

 

But, objectively speaking, here is what I know: The Bills projected 6 WR (Coleman, Samuel, Shakir, Claypool, MVS and Hollins) are considerably bigger and faster than last season, and their catch rates are generally better than the guys they are replacing. Better or worse is TBD, but they are certainly different. It could be a much better group than it looks like on paper is all I have ever said. They aren't a bunch of UDFAs or even late round picks.

Speak subjectively. 
 

If you want to dispute someone else’s subjective opinion that this is a bottom 5 group, post your own. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

I am not comfortable with their talent level. I think they are full of guys who actually kinda suck and/or are unproven and/or who are limited compared to the NFL at large.

you are hardly alone

 

this is the position of most neutral observers

[Mikey152]

Just now, FireChans said:

Speak subjectively. 
 

If you want to dispute someone else’s subjective opinion that this is a bottom 5 group, post your own. 

I didn't dispute it...in fact, I said I understand why you would feel that way.

 

I just also reminded you that most of the criteria that generated that opinion is only one way to look at it.

 

 

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

you are hardly alone

 

this is the position of most neutral observers

Nobody is neutral. Everyone is bias.

 

 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I didn't dispute it...in fact, I said I understand why you would feel that way.

 

I just also reminded you that most of the criteria that generated that opinion is only one way to look at it.

 

 

Okay so you think that this is a bottom 5-6 WR group is a reasonable take. 

WTF are we even arguing then lol.

[Mikey152]

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Okay so you think that this is a bottom 5-6 WR group is a reasonable take. 

WTF are we even arguing then lol.

Because you seem to be attached to this idea that it is the ONLY take, and that any notion to the contrary is some wild, homerish take.

 

I personally take issue with the idea that the Bills WR group isn't talented. That's just false. Strictly from a physical perspective (using something like RAS score) I am certain they rank higher than 28, for example. Now, I haven't done all the legwork for that, so I am sure Ill have somebody tell me how bad a take that was...but of that projected top 6 I posted they have 2 guys that run under a 4.4 (Samuel, MVS), a few that were just over (Shakir and Claypool) and a couple of bigger guys that run 4.5 or 4.6 in Hollins and Coleman. They all can jump. The smallest guy is 5'11 and the lightest is 190. 4 or them are 6'3 or taller and over 200 lbs. Physically, they are impressive

 

Edited July 23 by Mikey152

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Because you seem to be attached to this idea that it is the ONLY take, and that any notion to the contrary is some wild, homerish take.

 

I personally take issue with the idea that the Bills WR group isn't talented. That's just false. Strictly from a physical perspective (using something like RAS score) I am certain they rank higher than 28, for example. Now, I haven't done all the legwork for that, so I am sure Ill have somebody tell me how bad a take that was...but of that projected top 6 I posted they have 2 guys that run under a 4.4 (Samuel, MVS), a few that were just over (Shakir and Claypool) and a couple of bigger guys that run 4.5 or 4.6 in Hollins and Coleman. The smallest guy is 5'11 and the lightest is 190. 4 or them are 6'3 or taller and over 200 lbs. Physically, they are impressive

If there is a “notion to the contrary” someone should list the teams lower and support it. We are seeing a bunch of “they are better than Warren Sharp’s ranking” but no one is stepping up and listing the teams that they are better than. That doesn’t feel right. I have them bottom 3 with New England and LA Chargers. 

Edited July 23 by Kirby Jackson

[Avisan]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If there is a “notion to the contrary” someone should list the teams lower and support it. We are seeing a bunch of “they are better than Warren Sharp’s ranking” but no one is stepping up and listing the teams that they are better than. That doesn’t feel right.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread-- it just isn't a very productive line of conversation?  I think our passing offense will rank top 10, production-wise, and that's more or less all I care about.  I think we have 4 players that are proven NFL-caliber players, plus Coleman and Claypool, and if either of them pan out we have a top 16 group and if they both pan out we have a top 12 group.  If neither pan out we have a top 28 group.  The degree of uncertainty with Coleman and Claypool limits the fruitfulness of the conversation.  I think the Bills can have solid production with the current group, though.

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Avisan said:

I mentioned this earlier in the thread-- it just isn't a very productive line of conversation?  I think our passing offense will rank top 10, production-wise, and that's more or less all I care about.  I think we have 4 players that are proven NFL-caliber players, plus Coleman and Claypool, and if either of them pan out we have a top 16 group and if they both pan out we have a top 12 group.  If neither pan out we have a top 28 group.  The degree of uncertainty with Coleman and Claypool limits the fruitfulness of the conversation.  I think the Bills can have solid production with the current group, though.

 

4 proven NFL calibre players.... possibly (depends how you treat Hollins but I certainly agree with 3). Zero who are proven even as true #2 receivers. We have three proven #3s.