I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I guess that I didn’t realize Hardman was a 2nd round pick. They have 6 WRs drafted in the 1st 2 rounds then. 

So we have 5 guys picked in round 2 (including Hamler, Isabella and Claypool fighting for roster spots). They have 3 guys that were drafted in the 2nd and 3 more drafted in the 1st. They’ve committed to bringing in talent.

 

I think it's clear that overall, I agree with the point that KC has invested more at WR.  And they have Xavier Worthy and Marquise Brown - who is a disappointment as a 1st round pick, but can legit play NFL WR and may blossom with Mahomes throwing to him.  But I think you actually kind of weaken your point with Kadarius Toney.  He was exactly the same kind of rifle shot for them that signing Chase Claypool and KJ Hamler was for us.

[Billl]

6 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

The best WR aren't always the ones with the best stats, because WR stats are heavily situational. Rashee Rice wasn't the 28th best receiver in the NFL last year...he was just the #1 WR on a team with Andy Reid as a coach and Patrick Mahomes as a QB. There are probably 50 guys in the NFL that could have done as good or better in that situation. I mean, Juju's stats the year before were identical and he is pretty much a JAG at this point.

WTF is this?  Who are these 50 guys could have put up better numbers than Rashee Rice?  His last 10 games, he saw 89 targets.  He caught 69 passes for 780 yards and 4 TDs.  In just those 10 games, he put up as good or better numbers in every category than any pass catcher currently under contract for the Bills put up all season.  He did that while being the #2 option on the team.  And you know what his team still did after the season?  They went out and made their biggest FA pickup a WR.  Then they traded up in the first round of the draft to grab another WR.

[BADOLBILZ]

39 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

 I think you actually kind of weaken your point with Kadarius Toney.  He was exactly the same kind of rifle shot for them that signing Chase Claypool and KJ Hamler was for us.

 

That's ridiculous.

 

Toney played 2 games into his second season and got in the dog house with Daboll and traded to KC.     He had day 2 trade value.   

 

Hamler hasn't even played in an NFL game since October of 2022.  

 

I mean........do better.

[Avisan]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

I can’t even. 
 

Using top 10 in the NFL as his benchmark but doesn’t care about comparison amongst the league.

 

Legendary.

 

@GoBills808 you got got buddy.

See here's the thing: I'm pretty consistent and specific in what I argue when I am making an argument.  I have reframed a few times when for whatever reason someone hasn't accurately translated those specific frames into their perception of my argument, or has otherwise chosen to shift their argument to something else in their response.

 

So when we're discussing production and targets and what to expect/what our team is capable of, and things start veering off into whose WR rooms a given poster decides are better or worse than ours, I don't care.  I have no reason to care.  Even if I did care, and provided a good faith response, it would devolve into an argument over how I could really prefer the Bills' WR room over x team's WR team, even though it's a purely subjective discussion to begin with.

 

What I do care about is what our WR room is capable of contributing production-wise and how that stacks up against the league in aggregate, because that is ultimately how we are going to measure and rank our passing offense's quality relative to other teams.  This is adjacent to, but not the same as, a poo-throwing contest over whose WR rooms can beat up whom's.

 

TL;DR: Names and production are not actually the same thing

 

 

[Mikey152]

5 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, I have no argument against that at all - totally valid points.  But I was responding to @Mikey152, who was countering @Kirby Jackson's points about the amount of resources KC has expended on WR vs. Buffalo by pointing out that the Bills have a lot of 2nd round picks on the roster.

 

What you say is actually part of my counterpoint - it's not the same thing to spend 3 - 2nd round draft picks on WR, a 1st round pick on a RB, and this year another 1st round pick on a WR (trading up), which is what KC has done over the past 6 seasons

 

vs.

 

What the Bills have done, which is to use 2 - 6th round picks, a 4th, 2- 5ths, and finally this year a 2nd, PLUS bring in a bunch of 2nd round picks hoping to resurrect their careers (or have one).  Now it's fair to point out that in this time, the Bills also used a 1st round pick on an TE, as well as a 2nd round and 2 3rd round picks on RB, so it's not as though offensive investment in the top 3 rounds has been AWOL, but until this year, investment in WR certainly was.  

 

Counting a TE as a receiver, the Bills have invested a 1st and 2nd at receiver over the past 6 seasons in the first 3 rounds, VS. KC expending a 1st and 3 2nd round picks.  It's kind of like double the investment.

This is such a silly argument to make.

 

Tyreek was traded two seasons ago. The chiefs have been trying to find his replacement ever since. They’ve also fail, multiple times.  
 

over that same span, how many first and second round TEs did they draft? Could it be because they already had a good one?

 

The Bills, on the other hand, had one of the top WR in the NFL. He probably made more than KCs entire receiving core. They also clearly thought they hit on Gabe Davis. As such, they invested modestly at WR over the last two seasons.

 

Off-season without Davis and later Diggs (but no money) they drafted a WR with their first pick, signed a FA to 30 mil deal, and brought in a bunch of guys who have had recent success on the NFL on cheap prove it deals. Next season they are likely to spend on skill players too unless somebody blows up this year.

 

Not exactly apples to oranges.

Edited July 21 by Mikey152

[Alphadawg7]

16 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, I have no argument against that at all - totally valid points.  But I was responding to @Mikey152, who was countering @Kirby Jackson's points about the amount of resources KC has expended on WR vs. Buffalo by pointing out that the Bills have a lot of 2nd round picks on the roster.

 

What you say is actually part of my counterpoint - it's not the same thing to spend 3 - 2nd round draft picks on WR, a 1st round pick on a RB, and this year another 1st round pick on a WR (trading up), which is what KC has done over the past 6 seasons

 

vs.

 

What the Bills have done, which is to use 2 - 6th round picks, a 4th, 2- 5ths, and finally this year a 2nd, PLUS bring in a bunch of 2nd round picks hoping to resurrect their careers (or have one).  Now it's fair to point out that in this time, the Bills also used a 1st round pick on an TE, as well as a 2nd round and 2 3rd round picks on RB, so it's not as though offensive investment in the top 3 rounds has been AWOL, but until this year, investment in WR certainly was.  

 

Counting a TE as a receiver, the Bills have invested a 1st and 2nd at receiver over the past 6 seasons in the first 3 rounds, VS. KC expending a 1st and 3 2nd round picks.  It's kind of like double the investment.

 

Don't forget Bills also used a 1st and 4th to acquire a WR in his prime in Diggs.  So in 3 of the past 5 drafts the Bills used their first pick in the draft on a receiving weapon for Josh.  

 

So my person opinion is that I just do not believe at all they had expected to replace both Diggs and Davis in one offseason.  First, they extended him with a big extension...then last offseason they restructured him making him difficult to trade because of the massive cap hit, so their actions clearly support that IMO.  But, between the fresh start preferred by what sounds like by both sides, and the fact Beane was able to get a lot more for Diggs now vs later, they moved up the moving on from him a season and pulled the trigger now.  Especially after Brady came in and turned the season around where Diggs was leaned on a lot less.  

[Awwufelloff]

Still wish we took worthy 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C9sQV_4xGmY/?igsh=MWhxN2t4YXJqOTVrMg==

[MikePJ76]

27 minutes ago, Awwufelloff said:

Still wish we took worthy 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C9sQV_4xGmY/?igsh=MWhxN2t4YXJqOTVrMg==

Not Me.

 

I think Coleman will have a nice role here and DeWayne Carter has a shot to be the breakout star of this camp and a huge difference maker as the season wears on.  He looks to have all the tools and the power he plays with is going to be fun to watch.

 

Would Allen love to have a blazing fast outside wr to stretch the field, Yes everyone would but Carter and Coleman over Worthy for me everyday.  

 

I mean Yea I wish they made that trade with like the panthers or something and worthy did not go to KC but whatever you have to build your own team.

Edited July 21 by MikePJ76

[FireChans]

17 hours ago, Avisan said:

See here's the thing: I'm pretty consistent and specific in what I argue when I am making an argument.  I have reframed a few times when for whatever reason someone hasn't accurately translated those specific frames into their perception of my argument, or has otherwise chosen to shift their argument to something else in their response.

 

So when we're discussing production and targets and what to expect/what our team is capable of, and things start veering off into whose WR rooms a given poster decides are better or worse than ours, I don't care.  I have no reason to care.  Even if I did care, and provided a good faith response, it would devolve into an argument over how I could really prefer the Bills' WR room over x team's WR team, even though it's a purely subjective discussion to begin with.

 

What I do care about is what our WR room is capable of contributing production-wise and how that stacks up against the league in aggregate, because that is ultimately how we are going to measure and rank our passing offense's quality relative to other teams.  This is adjacent to, but not the same as, a poo-throwing contest over whose WR rooms can beat up whom's.

 

TL;DR: Names and production are not actually the same thing

 

 

Production is semi-dependent on their names though. 
 

There’s a reason bad players don’t get a lot of targets. 
 

Yes, on a terrible team, SOMEONE has to get some production, but usually the passing offense is still bad. 
 

Arguing that 5 Mack Hollinses would produce a good passing attack is absurd. We just watched Mahomes have the 15th best offense in the NFL, with superior coaching and superior talent compared to the 2023 Bills. 
 

The far more likely scenario is that Allen’s numbers start looking 2019-like despite him being 10x the QB he was then.

[FireChans]

13 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

This is such a silly argument to make.

 

Tyreek was traded two seasons ago. The chiefs have been trying to find his replacement ever since. They’ve also fail, multiple times.  
 

over that same span, how many first and second round TEs did they draft? Could it be because they already had a good one?

 

The Bills, on the other hand, had one of the top WR in the NFL. He probably made more than KCs entire receiving core. They also clearly thought they hit on Gabe Davis. As such, they invested modestly at WR over the last two seasons.

 

Off-season without Davis and later Diggs (but no money) they drafted a WR with their first pick, signed a FA to 30 mil deal, and brought in a bunch of guys who have had recent success on the NFL on cheap prove it deals. Next season they are likely to spend on skill players too unless somebody blows up this year.

 

Not exactly apples to oranges.

What lmao.

 

During Tyreek’s tenure in KC, they drafted another WR in the second. We did not draft a WR even close to that high during Diggs’ tenure.

[Avisan]

17 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Production is semi-dependent on their names though. 
 

There’s a reason bad players don’t get a lot of targets. 
 

Yes, on a terrible team, SOMEONE has to get some production, but usually the passing offense is still bad. 
 

Arguing that 5 Mack Hollinses would produce a good passing attack is absurd. We just watched Mahomes have the 15th best offense in the NFL, with superior coaching and superior talent compared to the 2023 Bills. 
 

The far more likely scenario is that Allen’s numbers start looking 2019-like despite him being 10x the QB he was then.

Guess we'll find out in a couple of months!

[Kirby Jackson]

19 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think it's clear that overall, I agree with the point that KC has invested more at WR.  And they have Xavier Worthy and Marquise Brown - who is a disappointment as a 1st round pick, but can legit play NFL WR and may blossom with Mahomes throwing to him.  But I think you actually kind of weaken your point with Kadarius Toney.  He was exactly the same kind of rifle shot for them that signing Chase Claypool and KJ Hamler was for us.

Sorry for the confusion. I agree on Toney and put that earlier somewhere. The only difference is that they traded a 3rd & 6th for Toney who was only in his 2nd year at the time (at least I think). It hasn’t worked out but his resume of struggles was much shorter than Isabella and Hamler (Claypool too but he’s also had success). Toney is more like those guys but the Chiefs invested fairly heavily to get him (vs. waiver wire guys).

[Bill from NYC]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Don't forget Bills also used a 1st and 4th to acquire a WR in his prime in Diggs.  So in 3 of the past 5 drafts the Bills used their first pick in the draft on a receiving weapon for Josh.  

 

Well, maybe we should also remember that McDermott traded out of round one to draft Coleman. He traded UP for Elam and Edmunds, this after trading away the Mahomes pick in order to draft a cornerback.

 

Everybody is 100% entitled to his or her opinion, but it is certainly a reach to believe that McDermott does NOT care more about defense than he does about offense, this on a team with the GREAT Josh Allen.

[Avisan]

16 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Well, maybe we should also remember that McDermott traded out of round one to draft Coleman. He traded UP for Elam and Edmunds, this after trading away the Mahomes pick in order to draft a cornerback.

 

Everybody is 100% entitled to his or her opinion, but it is certainly a reach to believe that McDermott does NOT care more about defense than he does about offense, this on a team with the GREAT Josh Allen.

Pop quiz: Who is the General Manager of the Buffalo Bills?

[Bill from NYC]

Pop Quiz: Please name me someone who actually hired their "boss."

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Don't forget Bills also used a 1st and 4th to acquire a WR in his prime in Diggs.  So in 3 of the past 5 drafts the Bills used their first pick in the draft on a receiving weapon for Josh.

 

Fair point.  I was more focused on draft resources used in my answer.  

 

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

So my person opinion is that I just do not believe at all they had expected to replace both Diggs and Davis in one offseason.  First, they extended him with a big extension...then last offseason they restructured him making him difficult to trade because of the massive cap hit, so their actions clearly support that IMO.  But, between the fresh start preferred by what sounds like by both sides, and the fact Beane was able to get a lot more for Diggs now vs later, they moved up the moving on from him a season and pulled the trigger now.  Especially after Brady came in and turned the season around where Diggs was leaned on a lot less.  

 

I think this is Right On.  When the Bills extended Diggs they thought he and Josh were a gonna be a solid pairing for 3-4 yrs.  Reportedly "Things Fell Apart" the second half of last season, so when Houston made a good offer, the Bills looked at the 6 straight games with minimal contributions from Diggs and said "time to go"

But the Bills had no expectation of moving on from Diggs and Davis at the same time.

 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Sorry for the confusion. I agree on Toney and put that earlier somewhere. The only difference is that they traded a 3rd & 6th for Toney who was only in his 2nd year at the time (at least I think). It hasn’t worked out but his resume of struggles was much shorter than Isabella and Hamler (Claypool too but he’s also had success). Toney is more like those guys but the Chiefs invested fairly heavily to get him (vs. waiver wire guys).

 

Agree again about Toney, but while the duration of his struggles is shorter - when a team drafts a guy in the 1st round and essentially gives up on him after 2 games played in his 2nd season, the steepness of the decline in confidence kind of makes up for the short duration of struggles.  But yeah, the Chiefs sent some decent draft capital to the Giants to acquire him. 

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

Pop Quiz: Please name me someone who actually hired their "boss."

Beane isn’t McD’s boss and vice versa.  They each report to the owner.

[Avisan]

55 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Agree again about Toney, but while the duration of his struggles is shorter - when a team drafts a guy in the 1st round and essentially gives up on him after 2 games played in his 2nd season, the steepness of the decline in confidence kind of makes up for the short duration of struggles.  But yeah, the Chiefs sent some decent draft capital to the Giants to acquire him. 

I, for one, would feel much better about the Bills' offensive investments if they overpaid draft capital for a player like Toney.

[Bill from NYC]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Beane isn’t McD’s boss and vice versa.  They each report to the owner.

Right. So you think that Mr. Pegula decides who the Bills draft?