I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

KC scored 21.6 PPG last year. They scored 23.75 in the playoffs.

 

Offenses are expected to struggle lmao. Maybe for certain QBs.

 

you are very adept at making my point for me

 

the reason KC is able to win a championship scoring 23.75 ppg on offense...is because they have a defense that can support that kind of middling offensive production.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

you are very adept at making my point for me

 

the reason KC is able to win a championship scoring 23.75 ppg on offense...is because they have a defense that can support that kind of middling offensive production.

They did last year. They didn’t their 2 other SuperBowls.

 

In 2022, they allowed a playoff PPG of 25. They won anyway.

 

Allowed 35 points and 417 yards of offense in the Super Bowl. They won anyway.

 

Those numbers are nearly identical to McD’s averages vs the Chiefs in the postseason.

 

Some QB’s are built different and can win in spite of their defense. 

Edited July 17 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

They did last year. They didn’t their 2 other SuperBowls.

 

In 2022, they allowed a playoff PPG of 25. They won anyway.

 

Allowed 35 points and 417 yards of offense in the Super Bowl. They won anyway.

 

Some QB’s are built different and can win in spite of their defense. 

josh allen averages more touchdowns and fewer ints per playoff game than patrick mahomes

 

if you want to continue to argue this point go for it but im telling you its a loser

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

josh allen averages more touchdowns and fewer ints per playoff game than patrick mahomes

 

if you want to continue to argue this point go for it but im telling you its a loser

QB’s records when their defense allows 35 points or higher in the playoffs.

 

Mahomes: 2-1

Allen: 0-2

 

I’m sorry my dude. It’s Joever. This “Mahomes is carried by his D” claptrap is revisionist history. The guy played literally perfect against the Eagles in the Super Bowl throwing to JuJu and carried his offense AND defense.

 

Some QB’s are built different.

[YattaOkasan]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Personally I would throw out the Ravens game entirely, for both sides of the ball. That was not a real game of football. FWIW removing that game would put our offensive PPG at 28.0, and our defensive PPG at 27.2.

 

Also FWIW in two of the three other games you listed (Chiefs and Texans) our offense scored more points than the Chiefs did when they won the AFCCG this year. If that's what we're considering as bad playoff games for the offense, that kind of proves the point we're making. The Bengals game is the only one where I would say the offense was outright bad and gave the team no chance to win.

 

So yes it is a crazy take to try and paint the offensive and defensive performances in the playoffs as remotely equivalent in any way. The offense is regularly putting up more points than their opponent typically allows, while the defense is regularly giving up more points than their opponent typically scores.

I generally agree with you that the offense has not been the problem in the playoffs, but doesnt that also sorta suggest there is less blood in that stone?  This part of the thread started by talking about likelihood of success and dismissed the defense as a place for investment cause of playoff failures. 

 

I think its harder to get the offense to be better on average and more consistent than it is just to raise the average of the defense so thats its always acceptable.  If we did that, then wont cost games anymore and the offense is already doing enough to win the games.  That we havent raised the average play of the defense in the playoff is maddening but still seems like the answer.  

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

QB’s records when their defense allows 35 points or higher in the playoffs.

 

Mahomes: 2-1

Allen: 0-2

 

I’m sorry my dude. It’s Joever. This “Mahomes is carried by his D” claptrap is revisionist history. The guy played literally perfect against the Eagles in the Super Bowl throwing to JuJu and carried his offense AND defense.

 

Some QB’s are built different.

 

when the argument that the defense doesnt implode in the playoffs devolves into 'but allen isn't as good as mahomes' it has failed

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

when the argument that the defense doesnt implode in the playoffs devolves into 'but allen isn't as good as mahomes' it has failed

The argument is that we need better offensive weapons to close the gap between Allen and Mahomes so if and when the defense collapses, we can still win with offense like Mahomes does all the time.

 

I have zero expectation for Allen + Coleman and MVS and Samuel to win a playoff game if the defense allows 35+.

 

Get Allen some more weapons and I think he can elevate to Mahomes’ level and start winning more playoff games.

Edited July 17 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

The argument is that we need better offensive weapons to close the gap between Allen and Mahomes so if and when the defense collapses, we can still win with offense like Mahomes does all the time.

 

I have zero expectation for Allen + Coleman and MVS and Samuel to win a playoff game if the defense allows 35+.

 

Get Allen some more weapons and I think he can elevate to Mahomes’ level and start winning more playoff games.

yes we agree on offense, i would obviously take the same approach

 

the difference being i already know he can because he currently is above Mahomes' level in the playoffs😂😂

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

yes we agree on offense, i would obviously take the same approach

 

the difference being i already know he can because he currently is above Mahomes' level in the playoffs😂😂

He needs help, obviously. Or else he would’ve won a lot more playoff games despite poor defensive performances like his contemporary has.

 

This is probably Beane’s thought process. “Allen is on Mahomes’ level, so we don’t need to overinvest on offensive talent.” He’s wrong. And he will be wrong again. We haven’t been good enough to win a shootout in the playoffs in Allen’s entire tenure.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He needs help, obviously. Or else he would’ve won a lot more playoff games despite poor defensive performances like his contemporary has.

 

This is probably Beane’s thought process. “Allen is on Mahomes’ level, so we don’t need to overinvest on offensive talent.” He’s wrong. And he will be wrong again. We haven’t been good enough to win a shootout in the playoffs in Allen’s entire tenure.

i mean we are arguing chicken and egg now basically...the 13second game would have been one in allens pocket and one fewer in mahomes

 

i know you dont believe allen is at mahomes level but i do, so those arguments don't really work for me.

[BADOLBILZ]

16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think I wrote reasonably clear English explaining what I meant.

 

 

The post to which I responded said, and I quote "Diggs/Davis/Beasley/Brown is a Top 3 receiving corps?"

Receiving corps.  Not WR corps.

 

Like most people here, I'm responding to a specific post (by Avesian), not to "50 pages back".  

 

Thanks

 

 

Like I said,  we had long since clarified that we were talking about WR's only.

 

What Avisan was replying to was my post which clearly stated "WR corps".    It wasn't a trick question.

 

And as to whether they had a top 3 group of passing game weapons...............the Bills finished 3rd in reception yardage and 3rd in TD's in 2020.

 

So maybe........if the receiving corps actually includes all the receiving options and not some arbitrarily drawn line.

 

The Bills finished 8th in receiving yards last year.    I didn't see much objection when the Bills WR's were coincidentally ranked as the 8th best group by PFF at the end of last season.  

 

They have the Bills "WR corps" ranked 27th in their preseason rankings for 2024.

 

[HappyDays]

48 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

I generally agree with you that the offense has not been the problem in the playoffs, but doesnt that also sorta suggest there is less blood in that stone?  This part of the thread started by talking about likelihood of success and dismissed the defense as a place for investment cause of playoff failures. 

 

I think its harder to get the offense to be better on average and more consistent than it is just to raise the average of the defense so thats its always acceptable.  If we did that, then wont cost games anymore and the offense is already doing enough to win the games.  That we havent raised the average play of the defense in the playoff is maddening but still seems like the answer.  

 

My take has been that the offense needs better talent to perform better, and the defense needs better coaching. I understand not everyone agrees with that. But since the coaching isn't going to change I think over investing in the offense is the only way we'll ever get a championship.

 

37 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He needs help, obviously. Or else he would’ve won a lot more playoff games despite poor defensive performances like his contemporary has.

 

Mahomes has had 1-2 HoF talents on the field with him, and 1 HoF talent on the sidelines, throughout his entire career. I'm not so unfair that I expect us to give that caliber of help to Allen. But yeah if we're already just giving up the idea that the defense can perform at even an average level in the playoffs, we'll need the offensive talent so Allen can make up for it. If the idea is that Allen has to prop up both a poor defense and a lack of high end talent on offense all the way to a Super Bowl win, that's patently ridiculous and you know it.

 

Edited July 17 by HappyDays

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

lol this is peak offseason

 

when your response is 'sometimes the offense struggles too!'...its the NFL playoffs. you are EXPECTED to struggle. what you aren't expected to do is lay down on defense like we do consistently and without fail. 

 

our defense does not make opposing offenses struggle. in 3 games vs the Chiefs in the playoffs we are allowing 450ypg and 35.6ppg...that is unforgiveable. the bengals somehow manage to actually play professional defense to the tune of 366ypg and 23.5ppg

 

40% of the games the offense has struggled.  That isn't sometimes.  

Our regular season offense is between 27 ppg and 32 ppg.  In 40% of our playoff games, our offense was 15.6 ppg.  That is not acceptable.  

 

You are expected to struggle in the playoffs?  Sorry, that's a pretty ridiculous statement.  The playoffs are supposed to be harder but that doesn't mean struggle.  You are expected to struggle if you're not good.  Why are such things as playoff disappointments if you're expected to struggle?  If you're an elite team, you're expected to step up when the lights are the brightest but you're going to argue you're actually expected to struggle....come on. 

 

Both units are responsible for not getting us to the Super Bowl.  For some reason, that is driving you crazy.

[FireChans]

44 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

My take has been that the offense needs better talent to perform better, and the defense needs better coaching. I understand not everyone agrees with that. But since the coaching isn't going to change I think over investing in the offense is the only way we'll ever get a championship.

 

 

Mahomes has had 1-2 HoF talents on the field with him, and 1 HoF talent on the sidelines, throughout his entire career. I'm not so unfair that I expect us to give that caliber of help to Allen. But yeah if we're already just giving up the idea that the defense can perform at even an average level in the playoffs, we'll need the offensive talent so Allen can make up for it. If the idea is that Allen has to prop up both a poor defense and a lack of high end talent on offense all the way to a Super Bowl win, that's patently ridiculous and you know it.

 

I want more talent. Mahomes can prop up bad defenses in the playoffs. He won two SB’s doing so. we need to help Allen do it with more offensive talent.

[GoBills808]

22 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

40% of the games the offense has struggled.  That isn't sometimes.  

Our regular season offense is between 27 ppg and 32 ppg.  In 40% of our playoff games, our offense was 15.6 ppg.  That is not acceptable.  

 

You are expected to struggle in the playoffs?  Sorry, that's a pretty ridiculous statement.  The playoffs are supposed to be harder but that doesn't mean struggle.  You are expected to struggle if you're not good.  Why are such things as playoff disappointments if you're expected to struggle?  If you're an elite team, you're expected to step up when the lights are the brightest but you're going to argue you're actually expected to struggle....come on. 

 

Both units are responsible for not getting us to the Super Bowl.  For some reason, that is driving you crazy.

lol please don't feel too sorry for me, im not the one arguing that the offense is responsible for us not getting to the Super Bowl when the defense consistently puts up bottom of the league type performances

[Avisan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

They have the Bills "WR corps" ranked 27th in their preseason rankings for 2024.

Do you think the Bills will rank 27th in receiving yards for the 2024 season?

[Rocky Landing]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Like I said,  we had long since clarified that we were talking about WR's only.

 

What Avisan was replying to was my post which clearly stated "WR corps".    It wasn't a trick question.

 

And as to whether they had a top 3 group of passing game weapons...............the Bills finished 3rd in reception yardage and 3rd in TD's in 2020.

 

So maybe........if the receiving corps actually includes all the receiving options and not some arbitrarily drawn line.

 

The Bills finished 8th in receiving yards last year.    I didn't see much objection when the Bills WR's were coincidentally ranked as the 8th best group by PFF at the end of last season.  

 

They have the Bills "WR corps" ranked 27th in their preseason rankings for 2024.

 

It's not really an apples to apples comparison, though, to cite how the receivers in 2020 finished the season, and compare it to how this WR room (with all the unknowns they bring) ranks entering the season. I don't know where the 2020, or 2023 corps ranked entering their seasons, but considering that there is only one player returning in 2024 from last season (Shakir), I would suspect that one factor alone would push the ranking down for many analysts, as would the lack of clear data as a whole.

 

I also believe (and perhaps I'm merely being optimistic here) that this ranking will very likely be higher at the end of the season, than entering the season. Especially if the ranking is for "receiving corps,"and not just "WR corps."

 

How much higher is, of course, speculation. But, it's not really pure speculation. There is relevant data that we can apply. For example, we can look at Samuel, and the QBs, and offenses he has worked under, and make an assumption that he will produce better with Allen. I'm sure you would say that's an optimistic application of the data, and I suppose it is. But it's not unrealistic. It becomes unrealistic when it is over emphasized.

 

Conversely, I think you are overemphasizing some of the contrary data-- like how much more Shakir, Kincaid, and/or Samuel will be pressured by the top defenders in any given game because of Diggs' departure. Certainly, that's going to happen, but I do believe that you, and others, have been overstating it.

[Royale with Cheese]

37 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

lol please don't feel too sorry for me, im not the one arguing that the offense is responsible for us not getting to the Super Bowl when the defense consistently puts up bottom of the league type performances

 

The only thing I feel sorry for you is your statement "you're expected to struggle in the playoffs".  Come on dude...you know that's not correct.

 

Am I only arguing offense?  When I said both units are responsible for us not getting to the Super Bowl, did you think "both" meant just

one and that one was offense?

 

What would 15 ppg rank us in those 4 games?

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The only thing I feel sorry for you is your statement "you're expected to struggle in the playoffs".  Come on dude...you know that's not correct.

 

Am I only arguing offense?  When I said both units are responsible for us not getting to the Super Bowl, did you think "both" meant just

one and that one was offense?

 

What would 15 ppg rank us in those 4 games?

yes, i believe you are supposed to struggle in the playoffs. the competition is better and the level of play is higher. it's more difficult to be successful

 

if that's so incomprehensible to you so be it

 

as for your theory that the offense is responsible for us not getting to the Super Bowl- i don't have the energy to keep refuting it. if believing that makes you happy go for it. this thread is supposed to be about wideouts anyway

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Like I said,  we had long since clarified that we were talking about WR's only.

 

What Avisan was replying to was my post which clearly stated "WR corps".    It wasn't a trick question.

 

And as to whether they had a top 3 group of passing game weapons...............the Bills finished 3rd in reception yardage and 3rd in TD's in 2020.

 

So maybe........if the receiving corps actually includes all the receiving options and not some arbitrarily drawn line.

 

The Bills finished 8th in receiving yards last year.    I didn't see much objection when the Bills WR's were coincidentally ranked as the 8th best group by PFF at the end of last season.  

 

They have the Bills "WR corps" ranked 27th in their preseason rankings for 2024.

 

OP stated that he thought the Bills 2024 WR group could be improved over the 2023 group. 
 

I think he may be correct, but you continually insist that he’s wrong because PFF has them as the 27th graded group. 
 

its an interesting group of WR. 
 

Shakir finished the year on a strong run the final 7 games, among the league leaders in catch % and ypc. Will  this be a springboard to becoming a top 10 WR?

 

Coleman is a promising rookie, with a strong record in college. 
 

Samuel has been a consistent performer, with 600+ receiving yards 4 of the past 5 seasons, with poor QB play. 
 

MVS has had consistent success, averaging 500+ yds and 15+ ypc in 5 of the last 6 seasons. 
 

Claypool had 800+ yds his first 2 seasons (with good qb play), then fell way off. Can he resurrect his career?

 

Hollins has had one good year with 600+ yds 

 

As a group, these WR have been successful NFL WR. They all have question marks, but it’s not as if these guys, as a group, have never had success in the nfl (excepting Coleman, who was their first draft pick this year). 
 

I’ll bet that this group finishes 2024 as better than 27. You in?