eball Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 58 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said: You make an excellent point. If McDermott loved Coleman SO much, why would he be willing to trade away not once but twice before selecting him? Now, he may have had some sort of agreement with the Panthers prior to the second trade. This I will admit, but still; he received a scant return for the deal. Beane is the GM, Bill. Come on, you can remember that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 6 minutes ago, eball said: Beane is the GM, Bill. Come on, you can remember that. McDermott got him hired. Come on, you can remember that. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 hours ago, YattaOkasan said: Agree it comes down to likelihoods, but I would say we dont have a ton of data on how likely many of these things are. There would be points and counter points that are both unknown (how much squatting in the middle vs allens arm scaring them is a good example). To your last point about getting more WR production than projected I think there is pretty significant data to say that will happen. Beasley, Brown, Diggs all had career years and outproduced expectations after their move. If I could guess your counter point (and its one of those unknowns), they are coming in with low expectations so beating those doesnt necessarily mean we have a good offense (even though we expect to out perform those expectations). God Hamler flying so far under the radar. Don't know what to make of him, but if hes over injuries he brings supreme speed and playmaking ability. Your line about options drafted in the first two rounds reminded me of him and he wasnt even on your list. You see I would say that there is an abundance of data that tells us to expect these guys to underwhelm. Samuel, entering year 8. MVS year 7. Claypool year 5. KJ Hamler year 5. Shakir year 3. It's not like it's some young, unproven(one way or another) group that's 23 years of combined NFL experience. They have A LOT of history that proves who they are. As fo players getting a bump in production playing with Allen..........in reality that data isn't very encouraging either. The lesser invested players have all failed to produce. MVS, Claypool and Hamler(who is kept together with popsicle sticks and gum at this point) are all dumpster dives. It's not like they paid good money for productive players like Diggs, Brown and Beasley. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 4 hours ago, BarleyNY said: Obviously you’re free to use those interchangeably, but it’ll cause unnecessary confusion since they are much more commonly used to mean different things. So it’s on you if people misunderstand you. As for the rest of your post, I was not arguing any of that. Just pointing out where a misunderstanding might have been. Since you’ve made a lot of incorrect assumptions about my opinions, I’ll put my take on Coleman here for the record. I was not impressed by his senior season’s tape and had a 3rd round grade on him. That was driven by potential and “wow” moments that made him intriguing. His performance was very inconsistent though and he did not impress on a play-by-play basis. Thus the 3rd round grade. In general, I very much dislike contested catch WRs as they rarely find success in the NFL. But here’s the thing - on the occasions that they do, they are often among the most elite. Coleman obviously has some special gifts and he is young and still developing. So he’s definitely got a shot at hitting and becoming one of the best WRs in the game. The Bills swung for the fences with him and while my brain tells me the odds favor a miss, it also knows there is the possibility they knocked it out of the park. My heart is certainly rooting hard for the home run. I think @Alphadawg7 is gaslighting us here. If Beane had called Coleman the Bills WR1 at any point every Bills podcaster would have had milk come out of their nose in that moment.........whether they were drinking any at the time or had to generate their own. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein's Dog Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 hours ago, Mikey152 said: what I don't get is why there are so many glass half empty fans on a Bills message board. If you are that frustrated in the offseason, why even be a fan in the first place? Perhaps you need to take a look at yourselves in the mirror and check your pride at the door. For me the frustration is in the realization that the FO has the WR group as a low priority. Baldo and Gunner have previously said it, but I didn't believe it. Only the diehards like the OP, can rearrange what is staring us all in the face and paint a rosy picture with it. For the group of Bills fans that would like to have Josh slinging the ball to excellent WRs, this does not seem to be the year for them. And then there is the uncertainty of what happens if the Bills have a good season with using pathetic WRs? Does it continue? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 13 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said: For me the frustration is in the realization that the FO has the WR group as a low priority. Baldo and Gunner have previously said it, but I didn't believe it. Only the diehards like the OP, can rearrange what is staring us all in the face and paint a rosy picture with it. For the group of Bills fans that would like to have Josh slinging the ball to excellent WRs, this does not seem to be the year for them. And then there is the uncertainty of what happens if the Bills have a good season with using pathetic WRs? Does it continue? Would you and the others cut the crap? Pathetic WRs? How about actually watching football? Samuel is good. Shakir is good. MVS has his moments. And we’ll see what we have in Coleman. You’re the guy begging the Bills to take a guy like Franklin in the 4th as if he was going to be the answer? Please. Let’s see how they all actually play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein's Dog Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Would you and the others cut the crap? Pathetic WRs? How about actually watching football? Samuel is good. Shakir is good. MVS has his moments. And we’ll see what we have in Coleman. You’re the guy begging the Bills to take a guy like Franklin in the 4th as if he was going to be the answer? Please. Let’s see how they all actually play. Samuel cost $8M, that's less than G Davis and Samuel is the most expensive WR for the Bills this year. Hard not to think that investing in WR is a low priority. Seems you have me confused with someone else, I was not begging for Franklin, quite the opposite. I thought at the time if the FO didn't double dip they had plans to trade for a WR when the Tre money became available. I didn't think a great GM would go into the season with their best WR being C Samuel (and at the time I thought Beane was a great GM), especially in the midst of Josh's prime. So yeah, it's been a rough off-season for me (and some others here). I've never rooted for the Bills to lose but now I have to wonder what kind of record would it take for Pegula to pull the plug on Beane/McD and get someone in here who make it a priority to surround Josh with weapons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 23 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: I think @Alphadawg7 is gaslighting us here. If Beane had called Coleman the Bills WR1 at any point every Bills podcaster would have had milk come out of their nose in that moment.........whether they were drinking any at the time or had to generate their own. Gaslighting? OMG that is rich coming from you haha. FYI: Brandon Beane literally said Keon is playing the "WR1 and X role with some Z" for the Bills...verbatim in one of his post draft interviews. No one spit anything out. But again...this wasn't even about Keon, you are deflecting as usual considering this started by addressing your post that Samuel is probably the WR1. You stated that Samuel is "probably the WR1"...you have now made clear you mean in the sense as being the top receiver for the Bills. Now you have simultaneously told me that you believe Shakir himself will put up 900 yards this season. You have said both these things in the last couple of days. This isn't like an old take vs a new take. You even stated that defenses are going to assign there best corner to cover Samuel...which is an interesting take on its own considering he plays a lot in the slot and backfield and teams don't even always do that with legit WR1's. So no time to waffle now Badol or try some PR spin here about these statements...go ahead and own that and state you believe that Samuel is going to be WR1 and exceed 900 yards...because you can't believe he is the WR1 if you don't believe he will surpass Shakir who you very specifically stated you believe will put up 900 yards this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 32 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said: So yeah, it's been a rough off-season for me (and some others here). I've never rooted for the Bills to lose but now I have to wonder what kind of record would it take for Pegula to pull the plug on Beane/McD and get someone in here who make it a priority to surround Josh with weapons. If the season goes poorly, don’t you think they’ve earned the right to tear it down and try again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 32 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said: Samuel cost $8M, that's less than G Davis and Samuel is the most expensive WR for the Bills this year. Hard not to think that investing in WR is a low priority. Listing their cost when our top 3 weapons are on rookie contracts in Kincaid, Shakir, and Keon (with 1 of those being a 5th round rookie contract) is a disingenuous way to judge "priority". You want to talk priority...how about the fact that in 3 of the past 5 drafts the Bills used the first pick in the draft on a receiving weapon for Allen. How about the Bills last 2 first round picks were used to acquire weapons for Josh to throw to. Then there is the fact that they paid Diggs multiple times big money in the 4 years he was here after investing a 1st and 4th round pick in him. They also invested a lot to keep Knox after he came off a 9 TD season and had proved to be a good TE. So yeah...isolating rookie contracts to say the Bills have a low priority in investing in WR or weapons for Josh is on returning a false positive conclusion. It isn't the "low priority" some of you exaggerate it to be by cherry picking obscure facts like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Listing their cost when our top 3 weapons are on rookie contracts in Kincaid, Shakir, and Keon (with 1 of those being a 5th round rookie contract) is a disingenuous way to judge "priority". You want to talk priority...how about the fact that in 3 of the past 5 drafts the Bills used the first pick in the draft on a receiving weapon for Allen. How about the Bills last 2 first round picks were used to acquire weapons for Josh to throw to. Then there is the fact that they paid Diggs multiple times big money in the 4 years he was here after investing a 1st and 4th round pick in him. They also invested a lot to keep Knox after he came off a 9 TD season and had proved to be a good TE. So yeah...isolating rookie contracts to say the Bills have a low priority in investing in WR or weapons for Josh is on returning a false positive conclusion. It isn't the "low priority" some of you exaggerate it to be by cherry picking obscure facts like this. Or quality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 40 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said: Samuel cost $8M, that's less than G Davis and Samuel is the most expensive WR for the Bills this year. Hard not to think that investing in WR is a low priority. Seems you have me confused with someone else, I was not begging for Franklin, quite the opposite. I thought at the time if the FO didn't double dip they had plans to trade for a WR when the Tre money became available. I didn't think a great GM would go into the season with their best WR being C Samuel (and at the time I thought Beane was a great GM), especially in the midst of Josh's prime. So yeah, it's been a rough off-season for me (and some others here). I've never rooted for the Bills to lose but now I have to wonder what kind of record would it take for Pegula to pull the plug on Beane/McD and get someone in here who make it a priority to surround Josh with weapons. If you ever root for the Bills to lose to me you give up being a fan. As for surrounding with weapons, the last 3 drafts: Cook Kincaid Coleman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: You stated that Samuel is "probably the WR1"...you have now made clear you mean in the sense as being the top receiver for the Bills. Now you have simultaneously told me that you believe Shakir himself will put up 900 yards this season. You have said both these things in the last couple of days. This isn't like an old take vs a new take. You even stated that defenses are going to assign there best corner to cover Samuel...which is an interesting take on its own considering he plays a lot in the slot and backfield and teams don't even always do that with legit WR1's. So no time to waffle now Badol or try some PR spin here about these statements...go ahead and own that and state you believe that Samuel is going to be WR1 and exceed 900 yards...because you can't believe he is the WR1 if you don't believe he will surpass Shakir who you very specifically stated you believe will put up 900 yards this year. You really need to just stop with this nonsense. Your WR1 is the guy that is the most common first option in the passing game. If that is a player who lines up out wide, they’ll typically have the other team’s best CB lined up against him if that CB travels. If he plays in the slot, the opposing team has CBs dedicated to certain sides of the field, plays zone, etc., then you’ll commonly see them help by shading a Safety or LB his way. Don’t believe me? Try googling “what is a WR1 in the NFL” and see how far you have to scroll until you find something that agrees with you. I’d suggest blocking out the rest of your evening first. Edited July 15 by Billl 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: Would you and the others cut the crap? Pathetic WRs? How about actually watching football? Samuel is good. Shakir is good. MVS has his moments. And we’ll see what we have in Coleman. You’re the guy begging the Bills to take a guy like Franklin in the 4th as if he was going to be the answer? Please. Let’s see how they all actually play. Will Troy Franklin or MVS/Claypool/Hamler/Hollins have more yards in 2024? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 Just now, FireChans said: Will Troy Franklin or MVS/Claypool/Hamler/Hollins have more yards in 2024? The latter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Listing their cost when our top 3 weapons are on rookie contracts in Kincaid, Shakir, and Keon (with 1 of those being a 5th round rookie contract) is a disingenuous way to judge "priority". You want to talk priority...how about the fact that in 3 of the past 5 drafts the Bills used the first pick in the draft on a receiving weapon for Allen. How about the Bills last 2 first round picks were used to acquire weapons for Josh to throw to. Then there is the fact that they paid Diggs multiple times big money in the 4 years he was here after investing a 1st and 4th round pick in him. They also invested a lot to keep Knox after he came off a 9 TD season and had proved to be a good TE. So yeah...isolating rookie contracts to say the Bills have a low priority in investing in WR or weapons for Josh is on returning a false positive conclusion. It isn't the "low priority" some of you exaggerate it to be by cherry picking obscure facts like this. The bills last 2 first round picks were Kincaid and Elam...Coleman was a 2nd Talk about disingenuous 😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: The bills last 2 first round picks were Kincaid and Elam...Coleman was a 2nd Talk about disingenuous 😂😂 Come on man. Trading back into the second to get the #8 WR in the draft is basically the same as taking a guy in the top 10 lol Edited July 15 by FireChans 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein's Dog Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 3 minutes ago, Billl said: If the season goes poorly, don’t you think they’ve earned the right to tear it down and try again? No, I hope not. I don't like the idea that the FO doesn't prioritize offensive weaponry for Josh. 10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Listing their cost when our top 3 weapons are on rookie contracts in Kincaid, Shakir, and Keon (with 1 of those being a 5th round rookie contract) is a disingenuous way to judge "priority". You want to talk priority...how about the fact that in 3 of the past 5 drafts the Bills used the first pick in the draft on a receiving weapon for Allen. How about the Bills last 2 first round picks were used to acquire weapons for Josh to throw to. Then there is the fact that they paid Diggs multiple times big money in the 4 years he was here after investing a 1st and 4th round pick in him. They also invested a lot to keep Knox after he came off a 9 TD season and had proved to be a good TE. So yeah...isolating rookie contracts to say the Bills have a low priority in investing in WR or weapons for Josh is on returning a false positive conclusion. It isn't the "low priority" some of you exaggerate it to be by cherry picking obscure facts like this. Having one top tier WR on your team is the average. And at one point when we had Diggs/Brown/Beasley we were cooking. But I think when we lost DaBoll the Bills lost a strong voice for offense and the overall plan for weaponry for Josh has suffered. IMO, you reach a false positive conclusion by only looking at additions and not taking into account the subtractions. To highlight this, by your account this year showed a high priority because they invested their first pick. When in reality, we all know this has been a huge step backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said: McDermott got him hired. Come on, you can remember that. Get some rest, Bill. This crusade has to be exhausting for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: The bills last 2 first round picks were Kincaid and Elam...Coleman was a 2nd Talk about disingenuous 😂😂 Their first picks in the draft is more accurate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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