I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[GoBills808]

36 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

It’s not being argumentative.  You just don’t have a logical answer.  
 

Im not saying Allen has had the same level of talent.  Its not that dramatic of a difference as you make it out to be.  
Allen doesn’t have his success without help from his supporting cast.  
 

 

this is your idea of logical-

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

How good would the Chiefs offense be if they had a good QB?

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Since 2020, the Chiefs have had better weapons and an offensive genius calling their players.

 

We have a defensive minded HC who you will say isn’t that smart.  Inferior WR’s, tight end and offensive line.

 

With the superior everything the Chiefs have….why are they behind the Bills in total points scored in those last 4 seasons?  You had Kelce and Hill in their primes in 3 of those seasons.  Offensive production wise, the Bills are every bit on the level as the Chiefs with inferior coaching and players.

 

 

The Chiefs became a contender 2 years earlier........their 2018 team put up an amazing 565 points.......3rd most in NFL history.......but failed to reach the SB.  

 

They had already mastered the regular season before the Bills became contenders in 2020.

 

The Chiefs learned how to build their team for the postseason.   The regular season has been a formality for them while the Bills have been chasing.  

 

The Bills offense has been built to put up points with receivers who get open against soft, regular season coverage.   When the playoffs hit.......they lose that edge.    

 

The Chiefs receiving targets have always had a much higher degree of physicality and that's why they seem to outscore the Bills with such little resistance in the playoffs.

 

The Bills seem to have caught on to what the Chiefs have been doing for the past few years but their choices to try to mimic the 2022-2023 Chiefs are suspect.   Primarily because the top of the Bills receiving order doesn't begin with anything close to Travis Kelce.    

 

Meanwhile, the Chiefs have pivoted to stacking speed on top of the physicality of Kelce and Rice..........probably because they've gotten less efficient in the regular season and want to assure they get back to controlling the #1 seed.  

 

Bills are always finding themselves a step or two behind.

[Royale with Cheese]

29 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

this is your idea of logical-

So you are going to pick my one sarcastic response and run with it?

 

Lets look at it with another angle then.

 

Reid has arguably the best TE in the history of the game.  Had the one of the best playmakers and fastest WR’s in NFL history and the greatest start of a career by an NFL QB.  Not to mention all pro offensive lineman.
 

Yet this offensive genius can’t blow the Bills out of the water with offensive production when his offense is significantly more talented?  
Or maybe the Bills aren’t depleted with talent as much as you want to believe.

Allen isn’t the only reason.

[oldmanfan]

56 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I get it people have hopes for Shorter and there's also Tyrell Shavers and another UDFA Bryan Thompson who the Bills liked enough to hang on to after a season on PS.

 

I do think the "Beane Should Have Double Dipped" folks were thinking of late 2nd through early 5th round

 

 

The guy I responded to wanted Franklin in the 4th

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

So you are going to pick my one sarcastic response and run with it?

 

Lets look at it with another angle then.

 

Reid has arguably the best TE in the history of the game.  Had the one of the best playmakers and fastest WR’s in NFL history and the greatest start of a career by an NFL QB.  Not to mention all pro offensive lineman.
 

Yet this offensive genius can’t blow the Bills out of the water with offensive production when his offense is significantly more talented?  
Or maybe the Bills aren’t depleted with talent as much as you want to believe.

Allen isn’t the only reason.

Hill was only there for 2 of the 4 seasons.

 

The Chiefs scored 1449 from 2020-2022. 483 pt average per year.

 

The Bills scored 1439 from 2020-2022. 479 pt average per year.

 

In 2023, the two ships diverged.

 

Chiefs scored 371.

 

Because of their crappy talent.

Bills scored 451.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

All McDermott's DTs are "rotational guys"

 

I'm gonna sound like a gol durn broken record, but there was much ranting and wailing and gnashing of teeth about Beane drafting Terrel Bernard in Rd 3 - a guy who was too small and light and projected out as a weak side LB in the NFL.  Well, so far the evidence says that it may have been a good pick (and may also be an example of drafting to fill an essential position before it's a desperate need), since he and Tre Edmunds overlapped a year.  Even more wailing and gnashing about Dorian Williams last season, if he works out this season Beane looks smart and look, drafting before it's a desperate hole.  Ditto DeWayne Carter - we drafted him while he has a year to develop.

 

Of course, if he doesn't work out, like Cody Ford didn't work out on OL and Zack Moss didn't work out here at RB, then Beane is dumb.

 

I see where you are going with it but I think it is pretty undeniable that Daquan and Ed Oliver are the starters. The other guys are pure rotational pieces. I don't see DeWayne ever being more than that. If I am wrong I will say so, but I thought he was a reach in the 3rd. I didn't have a view on Bernard in 2022 I hadn't watched any of him at all. And I liked the Dorian Williams pick last year (although I didn't love his play as a rookie the game was still happening too fast for him). So you can throw me in with others gnashing teeth if you like but I'm not sure it adds much to this.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

With the superior everything the Chiefs have….why are they behind the Bills in total points scored in those last 4 seasons?  You had Kelce and Hill in their primes in 3 of those seasons.  Offensive production wise, the Bills are every bit on the level as the Chiefs with inferior coaching and players.

 

Yes it is rather striking that an offense which featured 1-2 HOF pass catchers at any given time and a HOF offensive coach has been outscored by our offense over a 4 year period. One specific thought comes to mind. Here's an unrelated thread I'm randomly posting a link to:

 

 

But anyways it's undeniable the Chiefs have had better offensive talent every single year Allen has been our QB. Their #1 and #2 pass catchers have been superior to ours each of those years. This year that will almost certainly be the case again unless Kelce shatters his knee and Rice is suspended the entire season.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Hill was only there for 2 of the 4 seasons.

 

The Chiefs scored 1449 from 2020-2022. 483 pt average per year.

 

The Bills scored 1439 from 2020-2022. 479 pt average per year.

 

In 2023, the two ships diverged.

 

Chiefs scored 371.

 

Because of their crappy talent.

Bills scored 451.

 

In 2022. the Chiefs played 17 games and the Bills only played 16 games because of the cancelled Cincy game after the Hamlin incident.  The Bills only needed to score 11 points in that game to where they would be the highest scoring in the league from 2020 to 2022 and they already had 3 when the game got cancelled.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

In 2022. the Chiefs played 17 games and the Bills only played 16 games because of the cancelled Cincy game after the Hamlin incident.  The Bills only needed to score 11 points in that game to where they would be the highest scoring in the league from 2020 to 2022 and they already had 3 when the game got cancelled.

That’s true.
 

But still, the meme of “we outscored the Chiefs over the last 4 years” is really driven by last year, when the Chiefs offense kinda sucked all year, and is a defense for replicating that strategy to have the same sucky offense for some reason.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

That’s true.
 

But still, the meme of “we outscored the Chiefs over the last 4 years” is really driven by last year, when the Chiefs offense kinda sucked all year, and is a defense for replicating that strategy to have the same sucky offense for some reason.

i am coming out of retirement to say thank you for proving my point and somehow getting @Royale with Cheeseto agree w you

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I see where you are going with it but I think it is pretty undeniable that Daquan and Ed Oliver are the starters. The other guys are pure rotational pieces. I don't see DeWayne ever being more than that. If I am wrong I will say so, but I thought he was a reach in the 3rd. I didn't have a view on Bernard in 2022 I hadn't watched any of him at all. And I liked the Dorian Williams pick last year (although I didn't love his play as a rookie the game was still happening too fast for him). So you can throw me in with others gnashing teeth if you like but I'm not sure it adds much to this.

 

It's a fair point.  I'd counter that prior to his injury, DaQuan Jones was averaging just a scootch over 50% of the snaps (rising to 55% and 60% in the playoffs)

If you look it up it says 43% but that's silliness arising from him going down with injury early in a game.  Ed Oliver on the other hand has been a rising tide, with as many as 80-90% of the snaps in some games.  Overall 72% last season and I think they'd like it to be a bit lower, they just ran out of quality bodies when Phillips went down.

 

Personally, I think there's an argument to be made for the starter/rotational player with one guy getting 70-80% of the snaps and his backup giving him breathers, but McDermott has pretty much made it clear he will ride-or-die with a DL rotation as HC, and the impacts that has on cap and draft strategy - and this is one area where I would bet lunch money that McDermott influences draft strategy heavily.

 

The point I was trying to make was not to label you as a teeth gnasher, but that as fans, our viewpoint about the wisdom or un-wisdom of a pick really depends upon how the player works out (and I include myself in this, just to be clear).   Right after the draft, there are always "that guy was a reach" and "WTF, Beane, we need a MLB and the one thing that guy isn't projected as is just that".  

 

Then, in a couple years, if the player bombs with us, some are happy to thump their manly bosoms and say "I told you all that was a waste of a pick with no chance to work out here" and if he succeeds against predictions, you are a welcome exception but others will post their retraction in fine print on page 44

 

FWIW Lance Zierlein projected DeWayne as a 4th-5th round pick, but also as the 11th best DT in the draft (and he was the 8 DT drafted), so Zierlein would agree with you on the "reach".  I'm not sure how much that means, as every year even the better draft pundits grade some players higher and others lower than the teams.
 

[Alphadawg7]

48 minutes ago, FireChans said:

That’s true.
 

But still, the meme of “we outscored the Chiefs over the last 4 years” is really driven by last year, when the Chiefs offense kinda sucked all year, and is a defense for replicating that strategy to have the same sucky offense for some reason.

 

Not really...on a PPG average, the Bills were higher even before last year (again, only reason not in total points is the Hamlin game getting cancelled because we would have certainly scored 11 or more points that game).

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Not really...on a PPG average, the Bills were higher even before last year (again, only reason not in total points is the Hamlin game getting cancelled because we would have certainly scored 11 or more points that game).

Sure, but we could probably play that game on step further and throw out games that Mahomes didn't play because they locked up the one seed.

[Alphadawg7]

22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

FWIW Lance Zierlein projected DeWayne as a 4th-5th round pick, but also as the 11th best DT in the draft (and he was the 8 DT drafted), so Zierlein would agree with you on the "reach".  I'm not sure how much that means, as every year even the better draft pundits grade some players higher and others lower than the teams.

 

Many of those pundits thought Allen was a reach at 7th.  And almost unanimously those pundits said Trubisky was the best QB in a draft with Mahomes and Watson.  

 

So...I would say it means very little.  Everyone on planet Earth is wrong more than they are right about these players and projecting who should go where, who is a reach, etc.  If you redraft every draft in history now every single one would be drastically different.  

 

And more importantly, deciding someone is a reach or a steal on day 3 is a total waste of time.  No one has any clue to where guys will really go and no one has any clue as to why a team likes said player or how they see the players remaining specifically fitting into their team, locker room and scheme.

But we all do it...label guys steals and reaches...but honestly way too much is made of that and it really is a waste of time.

Edited July 4 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Sure, but we could probably play that game on step further and throw out games that Mahomes didn't play because they locked up the one seed.

Could we?  Cuz that was one game and Henne led the Chiefs to a 38 point game, higher than the the team average under Mahomes that year. 
 

So the gap would actually get wider if you took that game out.  lol

[Kirby Jackson]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I like Malik as well but he is ANOTHER slot guy. This team needs outside receivers to move the needle. They were pretty much all gone by early round 4 which is why picking a DT who is at best, IMO, a rotational guy in the 3rd made little sense.

That’s fair. I liked Carter a lot more than you did. He reminds me of Harrison Phillips (and I mean that as a compliment). WR was just a bigger need than everything else. I thought that it was CRUCIAL to get 2 WRs that could play including one that was in the top 2 on their depth chart. They drafted my least favorite of the top end WRs and didn’t take another guy. 

[FireChans]

28 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Could we?  Cuz that was one game and Henne led the Chiefs to a 38 point game, higher than the the team average under Mahomes that year. 
 

So the gap would actually get wider if you took that game out.  lol

No they scored 21 with Henne in 2020.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Sure, but we could probably play that game on step further and throw out games that Mahomes didn't play because they locked up the one seed.

What about the several 4th quarters Allen didn’t play?  We lead the league for a while in point differential and it was by a wide margin.  We had several games where we were up by 3-4 scores going into the 4th.

Allen either didn’t play or just handed the ball off.  This wasn’t one season’s worth, this was over multiple seasons.

 

But the point still remains….

All time great Andy Reid

All Time Great Patrick Mahomes

All Time Great Tyreek Hill

All Time Great Travis Kelce

 

Great QB in Allen

Terrible HC

Terrible OC’s

Terrible Offensive line

Terrible drafting

Only 1 good WR in Diggs

 

Somehow both of these units have similar production….hmmm

 

[pennstate10]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Chiefs became a contender 2 years earlier........their 2018 team put up an amazing 565 points.......3rd most in NFL history.......but failed to reach the SB.  

 

They had already mastered the regular season before the Bills became contenders in 2020.

 

The Chiefs learned how to build their team for the postseason.   The regular season has been a formality for them while the Bills have been chasing.  

 

The Bills offense has been built to put up points with receivers who get open against soft, regular season coverage.   When the playoffs hit.......they lose that edge.    

 

The Chiefs receiving targets have always had a much higher degree of physicality and that's why they seem to outscore the Bills with such little resistance in the playoffs.

 

The Bills seem to have caught on to what the Chiefs have been doing for the past few years but their choices to try to mimic the 2022-2023 Chiefs are suspect.   Primarily because the top of the Bills receiving order doesn't begin with anything close to Travis Kelce.    

 

Meanwhile, the Chiefs have pivoted to stacking speed on top of the physicality of Kelce and Rice..........probably because they've gotten less efficient in the regular season and want to assure they get back to controlling the #1 seed.  

 

Bills are always finding themselves a step or two behind.

"The Bills offense has been built to put up points with receivers who get open against soft, regular season coverage.   When the playoffs hit.......they lose that edge. "   

 

This is a really good point.

 

Bills WR room wasnt working for elite games, so it was a good idea to blow it up and try something different.  Maybe get some bigger, more physical receivers.  Like Kincaid, Coleman, Claypool, Hollins for Harty, Sherfield, Diggs.

 

Sorta what the OP was saying...

 

 

[FireChans]

8 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

What about the several 4th quarters Allen didn’t play?  We lead the league for a while in point differential and it was by a wide margin.  We had several games where we were up by 3-4 scores going into the 4th.

Allen either didn’t play or just handed the ball off.  This wasn’t one season’s worth, this was over multiple seasons.

 

But the point still remains….

All time great Andy Reid

All Time Great Patrick Mahomes

All Time Great Tyreek Hill

All Time Great Travis Kelce

 

Great QB in Allen

Terrible HC

Terrible OC’s

Terrible Offensive line

Terrible drafting

Only 1 good WR in Diggs

 

Somehow both of these units have similar production….hmmm

 

Okay. let’s just ask another way.

 

Why was the Chiefs offense so bad last year?