I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[JPPT1974]

Tons of Wide Receivers for Josh Allen to throw too!

[zow2]

The WR room is fascinating to me. On the surface, other then Shakir the guys seem a bit meh, like they are decent names but haven’t had these great careers (yet). But on the flip side, they’ve never played with an A+ QB like Allen who extends plays and throws dimes on the run like none other. You also have very motivated guys who might be on their last stop if they can’t succeed. 

[Beck Water]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes I didn't think Bernard was very good when he played in 2022. But I think you slightly miss the point. Scouts, coaches everyone underestimate and over estimate what players can turn into but players don't go from being one type of player to a completely different type of player from one year to the next typically. So he wasn't going to go from possession receiver to downfield gamebreaker. Hence he wasn't it. It is not me saying he wouldn't get better than he was in 2017. It is me saying I could see the type of player he was. This is the first time since then I don't immediately see that true outside, downfield receiver that is going to consistently win his matchups. That receiving corps didn't have it. Or does this one, though I think this one overall has more talent than 2018 did.

 

Thanks for clarifying your point being that players don't go from being one type of player to a completely different type of player.  I do agree that in general, that's true.  And, for example, Zay Jones draft profile comments that his high receptions and yardage were due more to scheme and targets than ability to uncover (separation ability and speed).

 

I will confess that I kind of laid a trail, though.  For example, Bernard's draft profile by Zierlein considers him as "Undersized sub-package nickel linebacker with special-teams value on the next level....lacks the desired frame and play strength"  Bleacher report says "Bernard projects best as a weak-side linebacker."  Can't find a soul who said "This kid projects as a MLB in the NFL" much less "Yeah, this kid's gonna shine as the MLB on a winning team and make fans say "Tremaine Who?" 

Honestly, though, I do see your point that Zay Jones from the point where he was drafted, never looked like a true boundary, downfield receiving option who can win against man.  

 

As far as "this is the first time since then".....I dunno...he was fast before he lost his burst after the ankle injuries, but did you really see John Brown as that true downfield threat?  He could be taken away so easily by physical play and didn't always run crisp routes, especially late in the game.  And I think some guys who love film (Cosell) thought Diggs wasn't that guy either, by 2022, that he was putting up great #s because we were force-feeding him.

 

Whereas, both MVS and, in his first 2 years in the league, Claypool, do legit have the downfield threat chops....they have big ????s Claypool because of his head, and MVS because of his hands, but if we're talking "type of player", that is their jam.

'

Edited June 29 by Beck Water

[QCity]

5 hours ago, klos63 said:

 I'm just stating that we look at players differently if they're on our team. 

 

Understatement of the century. So far this offseason I've learned you cannot win while paying 2 top tier WRs, Samuel is more talented than Diggs, and 40 times don't matter. Fans just twisting themselves into knots trying to convince themselves that everything is ok.

[Richard Noggin]

On 6/25/2024 at 9:45 AM, HappyDays said:

 

I think this is two unrelated statements. We needed a pro-ready outside WR, agreed. That doesn't mean you throw out the draft process though. Early draft picks are about picking premium positions with high ceilings. If you start drafting based on who's more ready on day one you've already lost. That's how you end up with Sam Darnold instead of Josh Allen.

 

That being said I also worry about Coleman being ready to be the starting X from day one which is unfortunately somewhat of a necessity because of how little we invested at the position. The fans will judge him too harshly I fear and that will be Beane's fault, not Coleman's.

 

Was there a "starting X" at all in the draft this year at the back end of the 1st round? Obviously Beane didn't think so, exactly, or he would have stayed put and pulled the trigger. Is Worthy that guy in year one? That seems like a reach tbh. (Nevermind how much I wanted the Bills to draft him at 28.)

 

On 6/25/2024 at 12:11 PM, Einstein's Dog said:

I agree that generally the draft is for the future and you shouldn't draft for immediate need, but sometimes they do.  I would have much preferred a large investment into a top tier WR.

 

I also like using the early picks on premium positions with high ceilings.  Hopefully they've done that.  But if you do that you would generally value the 5th year option.  I have difficulty with that little move down - especially when we ended up with extra draft capital for next year (picked up another 4th along the way).  Looked like Carolina valued the 5th year option for Legette.

 

Lamenting the loss of the 5th year option in that 2nd trade back is kinda silly innit? If Coleman actually turns out to be 5th year option-worthy, then the additional trade-back into the 2nd rd will look even smarter. By that point, there is no current WR in the pipeline preventing the Bills from signing Coleman before and/or after year four. It's a "good problem" to have. 

[oldmanfan]

4 hours ago, QCity said:

 

Understatement of the century. So far this offseason I've learned you cannot win while paying 2 top tier WRs, Samuel is more talented than Diggs, and 40 times don't matter. Fans just twisting themselves into knots trying to convince themselves that everything is ok.

Ask Jerry Rice how much 40 times matter.

[eball]

22 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Not unfounded though. The reduction in the team’s cash spend this season didn’t have to be this severe. The Bills still could have structured many of the contracts more aggressively and made more room than they did. Had they done more of that then I wouldn’t be worried.

 

Completely disagree.  The “core” didn’t get it done and there was no sense trying to “run it back” again.  Beane pulled off the band-aid and prepared this team to be good this year (yes, they will be very good) and position us even better for the future.  The “Pegula is happy with his new stadium and won’t be spending money” stuff is ridiculousness to the max.

 

[Bill from NYC]

52 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Ask Jerry Rice how much 40 times matter.

You raise a good point omf but players today are getting faster, not slower.

[oldmanfan]

20 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

You raise a good point omf but players today are getting faster, not slower.

On both sides of the ball.   Straight line speed counts for WR and DBs then.

 

Our WR corps has guys that are fast.  The critical things about the relative success of our WRs will be how Brady schemes route trees and such to get guys open, and Josh distributing the ball to the open guy and not trying to force feed any individual guy.

[Eastport bills]

Here’s why we’re better at receiver now.  If you look at the way our offense operated since Brady took over when we got hot last season, Diggs became more of a decoy to suck up double coverage in order to open up Cook’s impact along with Kincaid and Shakir’s underneath contributions. Davis was a non-factor during the stretch run. Diggs sulked not getting touches and lost his aggression and his edge. This year we have a proven weapon in Samuel that thrived with Brady at Carolina along with Coleman who is a demon on contested catches and has that edge that Diggs had earlier. Shakir has emerged as the dependable 1st down machine that Josh has come to trust. The addition of MVS is a big plus. He had nice seasons with Rodger’s and Josh makes everyone better. Look for him to be a prime deep threat. Considering we got nothing out of Sherfield or Harty, the new additions should be an upgrade with Hollins being a versatile guy who blocks well and is a good locker room guy for the young players. Throw in Knox who will be better in the 2nd year of Brady’s handling the 12 personnel offense. With the emergence of Cook as a matchup nightmare out of the backfield, this offense should be dynamic after playing together for a month. We would have been going backwards with a malcontent as our #1 and it would have compromised the development of our new additions.Bills fan should be excited.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Completely disagree.  The “core” didn’t get it done and there was no sense trying to “run it back” again.  Beane pulled off the band-aid and prepared this team to be good this year (yes, they will be very good) and position us even better for the future.  The “Pegula is happy with his new stadium and won’t be spending money” stuff is ridiculousness to the max.

 

 

But most of the “core” of the team is still here. The Bills only parted ways with the older, more expensive, injured and/or disgruntled players. The starting offense is the same except for two WRs and Morse. The defense is only flipping the safeties and a CB who has been injured. You put forth a narrative that may be appealing, but it is not at all accurate.

 

As for the Pegulas appetite for spending as the team moves forward, I hope it is big. But it’s TBD. 

[NewEra]

6 hours ago, QCity said:

 

Understatement of the century. So far this offseason I've learned you cannot win while paying 2 top tier WRs, Samuel is more talented than Diggs, and 40 times don't matter. Fans just twisting themselves into knots trying to convince themselves that everything is ok.

On the flip side- we have fans just twisting themselves into knots trying to convince themselves that we’re doomed and can’t win a Super Bowl unless we have an elite WR.  
 

goes both ways.

 

i have no clue if this will pan out-  I don’t see any reason to sit there and predict doom.  Some people choose to only see the negative in everything 

[Einstein's Dog]

5 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Lamenting the loss of the 5th year option in that 2nd trade back is kinda silly innit? If Coleman actually turns out to be 5th year option-worthy, then the additional trade-back into the 2nd rd will look even smarter. By that point, there is no current WR in the pipeline preventing the Bills from signing Coleman before and/or after year four. It's a "good problem" to have. 

Yes, the 5th year option is a minor issue.  But it certainly will not look smarter if K Coleman is 5th year option worthy and they don't have it.  It looks like Carolina traded up just to get this 5th year option.  If Leggette goes big Carolina will look smart.

 

But you touch on the larger issue, "no current WR in the pipeline".  That's a problem whose cause goes directly to our FO.  Most of us feel WR will be one of the top priorities to fix next off-season.  This is not good planning. 

 

[Einstein's Dog]

11 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

But most of the “core” of the team is still here. The Bills only parted ways with the older, more expensive, injured and/or disgruntled players. The starting offense is the same except for two WRs and Morse. The defense is only flipping the safeties and a CB who has been injured. You put forth a narrative that may be appealing, but it is not at all accurate.

 

As for the Pegulas appetite for spending as the team moves forward, I hope it is big. But it’s TBD. 

On the positive side, under almost all scenarios there should be a significant spend next off-season.  It makes sense from a business perspective.

 

What would be interesting to know is what expectations Pegula has for the current season.  What's it going to take for the Beane/McD/Brady to keep their jobs.

[QCity]

26 minutes ago, NewEra said:

On the flip side- we have fans just twisting themselves into knots trying to convince themselves that we’re doomed and can’t win a Super Bowl unless we have an elite WR.  
 

goes both ways.

 

i have no clue if this will pan out-  I don’t see any reason to sit there and predict doom.  Some people choose to only see the negative in everything 

 

There isn't a single poster here predicting doom. As moronic as this thread is, nobody has said we can't win a Super Bowl without an elite receiver.  There's a lot of  reasoned points about how our WR room is lacking. 

 

There is no flip side. It doesn't go both ways.  

 

For rational people, criticism of the team doesn't mean  "choose to only see the negative in everything."  

 

[QCity]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Ask Jerry Rice how much 40 times matter.

 

Hey I got bad news, Red Grange has passed. But on the positive side, we have this thing called "plastics" now.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29 by QCity

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Eastport bills said:

Here’s why we’re better at receiver now.  If you look at the way our offense operated since Brady took over when we got hot last season, Diggs became more of a decoy to suck up double coverage in order to open up Cook’s impact along with Kincaid and Shakir’s underneath contributions. Davis was a non-factor during the stretch run. Diggs sulked not getting touches and lost his aggression and his edge. This year we have a proven weapon in Samuel that thrived with Brady at Carolina along with Coleman who is a demon on contested catches and has that edge that Diggs had earlier. Shakir has emerged as the dependable 1st down machine that Josh has come to trust. The addition of MVS is a big plus. He had nice seasons with Rodger’s and Josh makes everyone better. Look for him to be a prime deep threat. Considering we got nothing out of Sherfield or Harty, the new additions should be an upgrade with Hollins being a versatile guy who blocks well and is a good locker room guy for the young players. Throw in Knox who will be better in the 2nd year of Brady’s handling the 12 personnel offense. With the emergence of Cook as a matchup nightmare out of the backfield, this offense should be dynamic after playing together for a month. We would have been going backwards with a malcontent as our #1 and it would have compromised the development of our new additions.Bills fan should be excited.

Who’s doing this now?

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Lamenting the loss of the 5th year option in that 2nd trade back is kinda silly innit? If Coleman actually turns out to be 5th year option-worthy, then the additional trade-back into the 2nd rd will look even smarter. By that point, there is no current WR in the pipeline preventing the Bills from signing Coleman before and/or after year four. It's a "good problem" to have. 

 

The 5th year option for a WR can be a valuable tool, especially with a player who may be slower to develop so the team isn't quite ready to bet a market rate 2nd contract on him going into his 4th season.

But, what people who whinge about it aren't considering, is the cost-controlled contracts of the players we were able to draft because of the trade- backs.  We didn't have a 3rd round pick, and we had multiple 6th round picks.  We got a 3rd round pick, and we moved way up in the 5th.  

 

With those picks, we drafted DT DeWayne Carter and C Sedrick Van Pran.  If either of those guys work out for us long-term, that value needs to be factored in.

[Eastport bills]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Who’s doing this now?

You expect a response? 

[oldmanfan]

38 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

Hey I got bad news, Red Grange has passed. But on the positive side, we have this thing called "plastics" now.

 

 

 

 

I would have to go back and look at the data again, but I think between 1-2% of all throws in the league last year travelled over 40 yards.   This is not the Mad Bomber days where you put a guy outside in one on one man coverage and he just sprints down the field to get open.  Defenses are too complex now.   Straight line speed in today’s league is more important to get more yards after a catch, and in that regard so called  football speed is more important.  Hence my using Rice as an example.  Regardless of 40 time, no one caught him from behind on a football field.