I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

And then it costs you on in other spots.  Take the Fish.  They are doing what you ask but they lost a ton on the defensive side of the ball due to cap constraints.  And now they also have a disgruntled QB.

 

I just hope Samuel or Shakir or Coleman or whoever come up big and shut everyone up.

 

 

There are always choices to be made, but the playing field is not level either. The teams willing to spend more do have a big advantage over those that don’t. The Eagles have been at or near the top in cash spending for several seasons. They lead the way this season, spending $345.5M. The Bills had been spending at a high rate the last couple seasons, but pulled back in a major way this year. They sit at 25th with a cash spend of only $248.4M. The advantage to teams like the Eagles should be obvious. I expect the Bills to ramp their spending back up in the next couple seasons, but it bears watching to see if/when it happens. Ofc KC has managed to win on a budget so that’s possible too. 

 

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cash/_/year/2024/sort/cash_total

 

[T master]

On 6/23/2024 at 7:09 AM, JerseyBills said:

Lets just start with the top 5 WRs, Bills just dropped a video yesterday or the day before , so pretty much confirmed our top 5..

 

Last year                This year

Diggs                       Coleman

Davis                        Samuel

Shakir                       Shakir

Harty                         Hollins

Sherfield                   MVS

 

There's obviously a huge question mark with Coleman, as with any rookie WR but should be dynamic in this O. 

 

I'm huge on Shakir, I really think he's going to be a stud this year and eclipse 1k yards. 

 

Huge fan of Samuel,  he does it all, you can put this guy anywhere, including the backfield and he's explosive and makes plays and that was on a terrible O with terrible QB play. Skys the limit, loved the signing. 

 

Hollins is interesting but he's an elite run blocker , which Brady has shown,  we're running the ball, bottom line , and not a great year statistically last year but I could see him having his 22 season where he put up 57 rec 690 yards 4 TDs. This was Gabe his first 2 years and this is his replacement for much cheaper. Plus he's a certified leader..

 

MVS , yes the drops and statistically wasn't great in the regular season but you can argue he's the reason KC won the SB. In our game he had 62 yards, 17 more yards than Kincaid who was our top guy w 45 yards. Would've loved to have him in January last year. Made huge big , long catches. Meanwhile Diggs is dropping wide open TDs which win us that game.. 

 

And at 6 , Claypool, Hamler, Shorter etc will fight it out 

 

Bottom line , this is a much deeper WR group. Harty/Sherfield were busts, they were awful. And with Gabe injured vs KC, it showed how weak our depth was. No offense,  but I never want to see Andy Isabella playing in a playoff game and that won't happen again with the depth added. Sherfield/Harty also had no business being out there. 

 

Obviously Coleman is a huge key to this group and puzzle but I see no reason he can't be the guy we expect him to be. Plus Kincaid year 2. Cook year 3. Upgraded RB room

This is going to be a fun O to watch. Probably the best we've seen with Allen because of WR depth, elite RB/TE and Brady calling plays

 

*Not to crap on Diggs, I really admire his game and intensity, I have him as my profile picture but the fact that Beane ate 30+ mil and took a future 2, clearly they thought he was just to disruptive in the locker room, as a leader. The Cincy game leaving his teammates,  as a captain, speaks volumes.

McBeane has built this team on family and doing your 1/11th on o and d and Diggs just didn't fit that culture. Good luck but good riddance 

 

 

I agree on a lot of your points especially that Sherfield & Harty had no reason being on the field, given the expectations that they had for them . It woud have been a perfect time on at least a couple of games to bring up Hamler or Isaballa to see how they played at game speed .

 

Some guys just seem to be better when the lights are on & that could have been what those 2 needed was to be in when it counted to show what they could give but the kept Sherfield on despite his total lack of input all in hopes that the light would come on .

 

At least they did get one really needed TD out of him & Harty so i guess in some ways those 2 moments in their time with the Bills did help the cause but it would have been nice given all the other time to check out other players if for nothing else for a future reference .

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It will be the first time they haven't taken a WR into the season who had put up at least a single 900 yard receiving season in their career since the period in the 1980's right after the 2-14 teams.

 

They've almost always had someone whose been a 1,000 yard receiver in their career and 800's is pretty far from that.

 

Including 2017.   Jordan Matthews had recently been a 1,000 yard receiver.  Then they picked up Benjamin and had 2 recent 1,000 yard receivers on the team.

So you think the WRs we started the 2017 season are better than this years?  Kelvin Benjamin wasn’t on the team-  

 

matthews- Zay jones- andre Holmes

 

we added deonte Thompson, who was our leading receiver mid season iirc.  Benjamin at the deadline-

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Brandon Lloyd is the IDEAL example.  Good call on that one.   Dude went All Pro level for his 8th year.  

 

So yeah,  like I said,  it can happen.  I do think we need more than 700-850 from WR1 though.   I don't buy the "in aggregate" nonsense.   

 

But we are talking about likelihoods.    It's just unlikely that Samuel is going to break out going up against the Sauce Gardners of the league for the first time.    He put up his best season as the clear-cut WR3 in Carolina.   

 

I do think we need more than 700-850 from WR1 though.   I don't buy the "in aggregate" stuff........as I've said......"stopping the run with numbers" was nonsense and so is replacing the quality with quantity at WR.

 

 I think we should expect an offense that is trying to shorten games and running a lot of 12 personnel.    The 2 WR on the field are going to have to produce to keep defense's from squatting on that sh!t.   And a guy like Samuel needs more snaps/routes to put up 1,000 yards than Diggs did.   So the numbers don't align.

I wasn’t disagreeing- just pointing out

 

I’m not sold on our WR room but I think our passing game can work well IF our run game and 12 personnel can open things up.  I think Kincaid/knox/cook/davis will be a big part of our run game.   
 

it’s really all about Brady imo. 

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

 

Calling Shakir top tier is hilarious.

Has the potential.  

Edited June 27 by oldmanfan

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

Benjamin WAS a #1 receiver. He had one of the best WR seasons for a rookie ever. Framing it as though I was some outlier that thought he was a talent that no one else did is intellectually dishonest.

I didn’t know 1 WR made up an entire WR unit…..

 

in 2017 our WRs to start the season were Matthews- Zay jones (rookie season)- Andre Holmes- Brandon Tate and Kaelin Clay and THE Joe Webb
 

but yeah……we haven’t had a worse WR unit in the last 40 years-  suuuuure.

 

[oldmanfan]

55 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

There are always choices to be made, but the playing field is not level either. The teams willing to spend more do have a big advantage over those that don’t. The Eagles have been at or near the top in cash spending for several seasons. They lead the way this season, spending $345.5M. The Bills had been spending at a high rate the last couple seasons, but pulled back in a major way this year. They sit at 25th with a cash spend of only $248.4M. The advantage to teams like the Eagles should be obvious. I expect the Bills to ramp their spending back up in the next couple seasons, but it bears watching to see if/when it happens. Ofc KC has managed to win on a budget so that’s possible too. 

 

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cash/_/year/2024/sort/cash_total

 

Good points.  Maybe it’s not total cash spent but who you spend it on. 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

This thread is depressing. 
 

it reminds me a lot of the linebacker threads from last season. 
 

I realize they are heading into this season without a lot of production at WR. If that is what you are using to measure how good their WR core is, I guess I get why you are down on them.

 

But the amount of potential they have at wideout this season is WAY higher than any recent season, and for significantly less money. Shakir and Samuel have elite advanced analytics, but are low on production due to targets so their numbers aren’t good. MVS and Claypool are probably the best HWS guys the Bills have had since TO was here. Coleman was a top recruit in two sports…I think his athleticism and potential should be obvious.

 

some of you are too focused on production. You are equating that to talent. But production is a trailing indicator, not a leading one. 
 

forget the numbers for a second and go watch some of these guys play. They ARE talented…probably more talented than any WR group we have had in recent memory.

 

I have watched lots of all of them. They are not. 

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Time for people to remind themselves of the offense Brandon Beane believed was NFL calibre in 2018. 

 

When I was thinking "no way is this the worst group", I was thinking more going into 2010 with Stevie Johnson, Lee Evans, Roscoe Parrish, and Donald Jones.  Yeah, Johnson had a great season - 82 receptions for 1073 yds - but his previous best season was 10 receptions for 102 yds.  Prior to the season it was like, "Lee Evans and who?"  Parrish was like, 5 years of "meh".  The Goonies, as they called themselves.  

Pretty sure if I thought about it a minute I could come up with a few more examples.

 

2018 we actually had a 2nd rounder in his 2nd year in Zay Jones, who had shown flashes as well as drops, and a former 1st rounder in Benjamin who had been playing hurt the previous season (knee) and we hoped would show out in his 5th year in search of a big contract

[Beck Water]

39 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So you think the WRs we started the 2017 season are better than this years?  Kelvin Benjamin wasn’t on the team-  

 

matthews- Zay jones- andre Holmes

 

we added deonte Thompson, who was our leading receiver mid season iirc.  Benjamin at the deadline-

 

Yeah, that was bad.  Charles Clay and Shady McCoy were our leading receivers that year in targets, receptions, and yards.

Thompson was our leading WR overall with 430 yds, despite only suiting up for 11 Bills games

Of course, our offensive plan going into 2017 was apparently "run Shady McCoy until his wheels fall off" #4 for rushing attempts, #6 for yards.

Edited June 27 by Beck Water

[JerseyBills]

24 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I wasn’t disagreeing- just pointing out

 

I’m not sold on our WR room but I think our passing game can work well IF our run game and 12 personnel can open things up.  I think Kincaid/knox/cook/davis will be a big part of our run game.   
 

it’s really all about Brady imo. 

Brady clearly wants to establish the run in any personnel n showed he won't back out from the run game if not working.  We have an ugraded RB room, with Davis n emergence of Ty. 

It'll be interesting with 12 personnel,  I feel like Dorsey hammered 12 , when Brady came on he put Shakir on the field and he broke out w more 3 wr sets so hopefully he can expand on his vision, finding the right balance with a full off season to prepare

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Brady clearly wants to establish the run in any personnel n showed he won't back out from the run game if not working.  We have an ugraded RB room, with Davis n emergence of Ty. 

It'll be interesting with 12 personnel,  I feel like Dorsey hammered 12 , when Brady came on he put Shakir on the field and he broke out w more 3 wr sets so hopefully he can expand on his vision, finding the right balance with a full off season to prepare

I think that is exactly what they are trying to do in terms of run game/ball control...I just think it's a mistake

 

It's been beaten to death but imo they need to lean into Allen having as many top flight receiving options as fiscally possible. Ball control is great if you can actually control the game on both sides...we've shown no ability to complement a conservative offensive strategy w a similar defense when it counts. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Allen will make this group serviceable all on his own. Brady’s won SBs w/ similar talent. It’s no secret Buffalo is going to have to lean on their TE’s and run game a little more than previous years, but I am honestly sick and tired of seeing Allen getting beat up running the ball. Save it for the playoffs. Let your 2nd and 3rd round RB do their thing, that’s why they were drafted so high. This offensive line should be much better than last year. Run it down their throats and let Josh spread the ball around. Thankfully he doesn’t need to force feed it to Diggs. I see a bunch of guys hitting the 700-800 yard mark w/ Knox and Coleman getting the majority of receiving TDs. Couple all of that w/ a stingy defense and it should be a fun year. No more of Josh Allen miracle ball. I want an offense w/ an identity and a purpose. 

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

 

There are always choices to be made, but the playing field is not level either. The teams willing to spend more do have a big advantage over those that don’t. The Eagles have been at or near the top in cash spending for several seasons. They lead the way this season, spending $345.5M. The Bills had been spending at a high rate the last couple seasons, but pulled back in a major way this year. They sit at 25th with a cash spend of only $248.4M. The advantage to teams like the Eagles should be obvious. I expect the Bills to ramp their spending back up in the next couple seasons, but it bears watching to see if/when it happens. Ofc KC has managed to win on a budget so that’s possible too. 

 

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cash/_/year/2024/sort/cash_total

 

This is another fear of mine - the significant drop in spend.  I hope this is not a change in business philosophy related to Kim's departure and business change.  The addition of Laura (the business woman) over Jessica (the competitive athlete) makes me a little nervous.

 

And this can be related to the fear of no top tier WR.  Pegula may have had a say in going this route because of the nice bottom line in brings.  And if Pegula was involved in the decision he might give Beane/McD/Brady leniency in a less than stellar season.

[BullBuchanan]

46 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I didn’t know 1 WR made up an entire WR unit…..

 

in 2017 our WRs to start the season were Matthews- Zay jones (rookie season)- Andre Holmes- Brandon Tate and Kaelin Clay and THE Joe Webb
 

but yeah……we haven’t had a worse WR unit in the last 40 years-  suuuuure.

 

What makes you so co confident this group is better than that? Matthews had better recent seasons than any WR on our roster? Replace JA with Tyrod taylor and are you really saying it isn't much of a coinflip? I'm absolutely not.

That said, if you want to argue that two year period, fine. You won't find another where we didn't have at least one legitimate WR on the roster. We had Reed, moulds, Evans, S.Johnson, Woods, Watkins covering the entire preceding span among others. Feel free to die on this hill.

36 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

When I was thinking "no way is this the worst group", I was thinking more going into 2010 with Stevie Johnson, Lee Evans, Roscoe Parrish, and Donald Jones.  Yeah, Johnson had a great season - 82 receptions for 1073 yds - but his previous best season was 10 receptions for 102 yds.  Prior to the season it was like, "Lee Evans and who?"  Parrish was like, 5 years of "meh".  The Goonies, as they called themselves.  

Pretty sure if I thought about it a minute I could come up with a few more examples.

 

2018 we actually had a 2nd rounder in his 2nd year in Zay Jones, who had shown flashes as well as drops, and a former 1st rounder in Benjamin who had been playing hurt the previous season (knee) and we hoped would show out in his 5th year in search of a big contract

Lee Evans had more pedigree than every WR on our roster combined. A lot fo teams don't have more than 1 very good WR, if they even have that. 2010 was nothing to scoff at.

[SoCal Deek]

I’m looking at like Diggs got hurt in the offseason and now we’re going to see what they’ve cobbled together without him….but at least it’s better than having him go down in the Opener 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

I wasn’t disagreeing- just pointing out

 

I’m not sold on our WR room but I think our passing game can work well IF our run game and 12 personnel can open things up.  I think Kincaid/knox/cook/davis will be a big part of our run game.   
 

it’s really all about Brady imo. 

I think if Kincaid takes another large step to elite, I will feel much better about our offense. Ditto with Shakir, or Coleman being an out of the box star.

 

But that’s kinda the thing. On paper, none of them are there yet. They may ALL be superstars this time next year. I doubt it, but it’s on the board. But as it stands now, they are a bunch of young unproven guys and an assortment of lotto ticket or possibly washed vets. 
 

It’s fair to say nobody had the Packers as a great WR room in the last 2 years. But a lot of their picks started to blossom and now it looks better.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

When I was thinking "no way is this the worst group", I was thinking more going into 2010 with Stevie Johnson, Lee Evans, Roscoe Parrish, and Donald Jones.  Yeah, Johnson had a great season - 82 receptions for 1073 yds - but his previous best season was 10 receptions for 102 yds.  Prior to the season it was like, "Lee Evans and who?"  Parrish was like, 5 years of "meh".  The Goonies, as they called themselves.  

Pretty sure if I thought about it a minute I could come up with a few more examples.

 

2018 we actually had a 2nd rounder in his 2nd year in Zay Jones, who had shown flashes as well as drops, and a former 1st rounder in Benjamin who had been playing hurt the previous season (knee) and we hoped would show out in his 5th year in search of a big contract

 

I knew Zay wasn't it and Benjamin was a bust by 2018.

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I think that is exactly what they are trying to do in terms of run game/ball control...I just think it's a mistake

 

It's been beaten to death but imo they need to lean into Allen having as many top flight receiving options as fiscally possible. Ball control is great if you can actually control the game on both sides...we've shown no ability to complement a conservative offensive strategy w a similar defense when it counts. 

I mean that has been KCs path to a SB along with an elite D

 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I mean that has been KCs path to a SB along with an elite D

 

KC has never not had at least one Hall of Fame pass catcher and a HOF offensive mind directing their offense for all their SBs