I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[oldmanfan]

18 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

1 proven elite pass catcher and another top tier prospect on a rookie contract is the recipe. 

 

edit:  and not overpaying for JAGs

But that elite pass catcher doesn’t have to be a WR as the Chiefs have shown.  As for a rookie Shakir was drafted a couple years ago and now seems to be a top tier type.  We’ll see how Coleman does as well.  And they drafted Kincaid, Cook as a pass catching RB.  
 

What we have is the classic reaction of:  You have to draft a WR!  Beane  does exactly that at the top of Round 2.  And the cry then becomes :  Not THAT one!

 

Our offense will hold up its end.  Any team with a QB like Josh will do so.

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, OK, so for you it's all about who's wrong and who's right.   Noted.  

 

I look for people that have some depth to their statements and what they post here.  

 

But you define one of the major issues in social media.  So that's a good perspective I suppose. 

 

 

I would simply avoid overarching statements when they are easily disproven 

Edited June 27 by oldmanfan

[PBF81]

On 6/25/2024 at 8:41 PM, Billy Claude said:

 

Absolutely agree that the defense was bad during the last six games of Dorsey's tenure.  However, independent of the defense, the offense was also pretty bad during those six games.   Outside of the Chargers and Patriots games which I certainly don't want to discount, I don't see how anyone watching the Brady OC games would say that the Bills' offense did not at minimum look smoother and less discombulated than Dorsey's last six games.

 

The defense definitely played much  better during the last 9 games (with the exception of the KC playoff game).  A lot of this was due to McDermott adjusting and the pickup of Douglas after the first round of injuries. However, the defense also gave up fewer points because the offense held the ball so long so there were fewer drives per game. The defense also most likely started with better field position on average since there were fewer three and outs (these last two "facts" are guesses, I didn't check that). These appear to be unpopular words on the board but it really was textbook complementary football.

 

The main question is why did the offense look smoother under Brady?  If it was primarily due to Josh Allen running more then is it sustainable?   You bring up some data, i.e., Allen's lower completion percentage under Brady that suggests that this is the case so that is definitely something to be concerned about.

 

 

Did it look "smoother"?  

 

Our last three games were not particularly smooth.  We should have dusted both the Chargers and Pats and nearly lost both games with the offense looking anything but smooth, and as to the Miami game, while we logged a lot of yards, it wasn't a particularly "smooth" game.  

 

But question for you, .... 

 

Set-up:  

Under Dorsey we looked fabulous, on both sides of the ball, for our first four games.  In fact, while we all thought that it was a positive harbinger, I distinctly recall letting people know that that pace was not sustainable and was mocked for it.  But I never expected us to go so flat in the next six games.  

 

Under Bray we also looked fabulous, for our first couple of games offensively, and then our fourth game, but after that the offense went flat again.  Allen and the O in both cases, with again, Cook playing worse later on.  

 

Question:  

To what do you attribute those types of patterns and inconsistency?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BarleyNY]

55 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Multiple high end pass catchers does not work when you have a star QB and the salary cap.

This has been disproven. The Eagles are paying a QB and 2 WR top tier contracts. The requirements are that the owner must been willing to outspend most other teams, the FO must be willing to aggressively structure contracts and the FO has to pay the right players. The Eagles aren’t the only team doing this. 

 

Also it’s worth noting that this season the Bills are paying a QB and WR (from a cap perspective) even if that WR is off the team. People here seem to think that’ll work. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes there is a lot of revisionist history with the Chiefs. WR was a much publicized and talked about issue with them and most people expected it to be the reason they didn't win a Super Bowl. A lot of Bills fans are intentionally pretending that that wasn't a thing. The Chiefs overcoming that is no more proof of concept than Nick Foles winning a Super Bowl is proof that high end QBs don't matter.

 

In any case, if I've said it once I'll say it 100 times - our goal can't be to try and emulate the Chiefs. Nobody should be trying to emulate them. We need to follow the standard formula of winning a Super Bowl and that formula includes multiple high end pass catchers.

very good

 

and it doesn't even take into account the fact that the Chiefs did actually have not one but two Hall of Fame pass catchers surrounding Mahomes for their first SB. They've never not had a Hall of Fame pass catching talent on offense for each of their Super Bowls.

[SoCal Deek]

25 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

This has been disproven. The Eagles are paying a QB and 2 WR top tier contracts. The requirements are that the owner must been willing to outspend most other teams, the FO must be willing to aggressively structure contracts and the FO has to pay the right players. The Eagles aren’t the only team doing this. 

 

Also it’s worth noting that this season the Bills are paying a QB and WR (from a cap perspective) even if that WR is off the team. People here seem to think that’ll work. 

This is an equation with multiple variables, but at least you corrected yourself mid-post. The 2024 Bills ARE paying a top WR. It’s just that he’s playing in Houston. They’re also paying a one legged DE top dollar. There is no one size fits all formula but as a general rule, when you have a top dollar QB, something has to give somewhere. 

[oldmanfan]

40 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

This has been disproven. The Eagles are paying a QB and 2 WR top tier contracts. The requirements are that the owner must been willing to outspend most other teams, the FO must be willing to aggressively structure contracts and the FO has to pay the right players. The Eagles aren’t the only team doing this. 

 

Also it’s worth noting that this season the Bills are paying a QB and WR (from a cap perspective) even if that WR is off the team. People here seem to think that’ll work. 

And then it costs you on in other spots.  Take the Fish.  They are doing what you ask but they lost a ton on the defensive side of the ball due to cap constraints.  And now they also have a disgruntled QB.

 

I just hope Samuel or Shakir or Coleman or whoever come up big and shut everyone up.

 

[BullBuchanan]

4 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

 

 

In some cases you are looking at expectations for the year -- "Jordan Matthews was a perennial 900 yard receiver but imploded with the Bills" and in another case you are looking at accomplishments during the season -- " Zay Jones who would have a promising sophomore season".   Picking and choosing which one you want to use to make the argument pretty much destroys its credibility.

The WR room this season looks pretty weak going in but I don't think it was as bad as the 2017 one looked. It has always been my belief that that Bills intended to tank that season and were surprised to be in the playoff hunt.  Anquan Boldin obviously though so too.

 

 

Not picking and choosing anything, just talking about expectations vs how they ended up. Zay Jones was an equivalent to Coleman, Matthews was superior to both Shakir and Samuel. We don't have anyone in the WR room with the off-season potential that Benjamin had.

[BullBuchanan]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

If you’d like to go by stats:

-Chase claypool had back to back 860+ yard seasons

-Samuel- had 851 yard in his season with Joe Brady 

-MVS won back to back super bowls as starting outside WR

-Keon Coleman drafted higher than Zay Jones

-Shakir- an obvious ascending player that led the league in catch% was among leaders in most efficiency categories

 

You thought Benjamin was a WR1 -  got it 

 

 

 

 

Yes, Claypool had 860 yard seasons, 3 teams ago before flushing his career down the drain. If he can get back to that, he'll be a great addition, but no one should be expecting that.

Samuel had one season above 800 yards and it was 4 years ago. He's been a 600 yard player since.

MVS is indeed a winner, and likley why he's here over other talents with better production - a 300 -700 yard player

Jones and Coleman were drafted a few picks apart. Calling it a wash for now.
Shakir certainly  has potential. I love the kid, and I'm expecting big things. Still, he has 49 career receptions coming into this season.

Benjamin WAS a #1 receiver. He had one of the best WR seasons for a rookie ever. Framing it as though I was some outlier that thought he was a talent that no one else did is intellectually dishonest.

[Billy Claude]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Did it look "smoother"?  

 

Our last three games were not particularly smooth.  We should have dusted both the Chargers and Pats and nearly lost both games with the offense looking anything but smooth, and as to the Miami game, while we logged a lot of yards, it wasn't a particularly "smooth" game.  

 

But question for you, .... 

 

Set-up:  

Under Dorsey we looked fabulous, on both sides of the ball, for our first four games.  In fact, while we all thought that it was a positive harbinger, I distinctly recall letting people know that that pace was not sustainable and was mocked for it.  But I never expected us to go so flat in the next six games.  

 

Under Bray we also looked fabulous, for our first couple of games offensively, and then our fourth game, but after that the offense went flat again.  Allen and the O in both cases, with again, Cook playing worse later on.  

 

Question:  

To what do you attribute those types of patterns and inconsistency?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we just have to disagree with your assessment of the last three games.   In my opinion offense looked very good both against the Steelers and the Dolphins They also looked pretty decent against the #2 defense in the NFL against the Chiefs.   This is just an opinion so I do not contest your right to have yours.

 

[kota]

It's better because now Josh is in command of them all.  He doesn't have Diggs in the way.  

[Billy Claude]

16 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Not picking and choosing anything, just talking about expectations vs how they ended up. Zay Jones was an equivalent to Coleman, Matthews was superior to both Shakir and Samuel. We don't have anyone in the WR room with the off-season potential that Benjamin had.

 

If you weren't only looking at expectations and where they ended up, no one was expecting much from Zay Jones his second year after his 35% catch percentage his rookie year.

 

 

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Multiple high end pass catchers does not work when you have a star QB and the salary cap.

Bucs did it and won a SB

So did the Rams

Eagles Lions Bengals currently doing it

 

to quote yourself lol

 

So you say it never happened, not once.

 

But it did.

 

So you’re wrong.

[PBF81]

16 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

 

I think we just have to disagree with your assessment of the last three games.   In my opinion offense looked very good both against the Steelers and the Dolphins They also looked pretty decent against the #2 defense in the NFL against the Chiefs.   This is just an opinion so I do not contest your right to have yours.

 

 

For sure some disagree, but many agree as well. 

 

One thing is for certain, this season will provide a whole lot more information on it all.  

 

 

And FWIW, we nearly lost both of our last divisional games against NE and the Fins, we needed a D TD to beat the Pats, with Mac Jones, and a PR TD to beat Miami.  

 

That 6-1 drops to 4-3 w/o those non-offensive TDs and we are 9-8 and watching in January.  

 

The first three games will be interesting.  Despite all the talk about how tough our schedule is, our first three games are pretty easy.  Jax isn't anything special, Arizona sucks, and we own Miami, here or there.  

 

 

Edited June 27 by PBF81

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Bucs did it and won a SB

So did the Rams

Eagles Lions Bengals currently doing it

 

to quote yourself lol

 

So you say it never happened, not once.

 

But it did.

 

So you’re wrong.

The Bucs had Evans but I don’t  believe they had another great WR.  The Rams with Kupp and OBJ I would agree.  I suppose to me multiple means 3-4 high end guys, and there simply isn’t cap room for that and a veteran star QB.
 

To me to win a SB you need a great QB (we have one), a balanced offense that can hit in various ways (I’m more optimistic than others, a D that can get stops when needed (jury is out for us there), and luck (no injuries).  

Edited June 27 by oldmanfan

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

The Bucs had Evans but I don’t  believe they had another great WR.  The Rams with Kupp and OBJ I would agree.  
 

To me to win a SB you need a great QB (we have one), a balanced offense that can hit in various ways (I’m more optimistic than others, a D that can get stops when needed (jury is out for us there), and luck (no injuries).  

Godwin was a pro bowler/top100 type and they also brought in Gronkowski

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Godwin was a pro bowler/top100 type and they also brought in Gronkowski

Never that impressed by Godwin.  And it would appear we are now including TEs which is fine.  So we have Shakir, Samuels, and Kincaid.   Let’s see what they do.  Or Coleman of course.

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

But that elite pass catcher doesn’t have to be a WR as the Chiefs have shown.  As for a rookie Shakir was drafted a couple years ago and now seems to be a top tier type.  We’ll see how Coleman does as well.  And they drafted Kincaid, Cook as a pass catching RB.  
 

What we have is the classic reaction of:  You have to draft a WR!  Beane  does exactly that at the top of Round 2.  And the cry then becomes :  Not THAT one!

 

Our offense will hold up its end.  Any team with a QB like Josh will do so.

I would simply avoid overarching statements when they are easily disproven 

 

Calling Shakir top tier is hilarious.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Never that impressed by Godwin.  And it would appear we are now including TEs which is fine.  So we have Shakir, Samuels, and Kincaid.   Let’s see what they do.  Or Coleman of course.

Never impressed by Godwin but thinking we are fine w what we have is peak what I'm talking about lol

 

Godwin would stroll in here WR1 by a country mile

[BullBuchanan]

8 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

 

If you weren't only looking at expectations and where they ended up, no one was expecting much from Zay Jones his second year after his 35% catch percentage his rookie year.

 

 

Why not? I'm not saying people expected the world from him, but it's pretty natural to expect a certain level of progression from a rookie WR.

[Billy Claude]

15 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Why not? I'm not saying people expected the world from him, but it's pretty natural to expect a certain level of progression from a rookie WR.

 

27 catches on 75 targets and  jumping out of a window naked in between seasons are some of the reasons people didn't expect a lot from him.  The folks who expected anything significant from Zay Jones in his 2nd year are the same people assume that Shakir will be all pro this season.

 

Edited June 27 by Billy Claude