I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

Get on the WR suck train or you’re a homer

 

There's a wide gulf between "Curtis Samuel sucks" and "Curtis Samuel is as good as Stefon Diggs." Everyone else on this board falls somewhere in between that. You're the only one sitting at one extreme.

[BarleyNY]

4 hours ago, Augie said:

 

For the record, I am about the same height and weight as those guys.  Those are facts. 

 

😋

 

 

.

And I’ve never seen an NFL cornerback anywhere near you. Talk about separation. 

[BullBuchanan]

Pass the kool aid. This isn't just a drastic step down from what we had by every possible measurement, it's likely the weakest WR group we've had on paper in the last 40 years.

[BillsFanForever19]

15 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t disagree. The point remains. When talking about “the Bills WRs” we shouldn’t be talking about “the Bills TE.” That’s a different conversation. This conversation is about “the Bills WRs.”

 

... if you don't disagree, you understand that "The Bills TE" is one of "The Bills WRs".

 

It's a real weak argument to understand that and go "even though he plays WR, his official listing on the roster page is a TE, so he doesn't count and I'm only going to judge the room based on who's *officially* listed as a WR".

 

"The Bills TE" is Dawson Knox. Dalton Kincaid is a Big Slot WR and should be thought of as part of the WR core, regardless of what his official designation on the Roster sheet says. Like I said, it also says Von Miller is a Linebacker and will all know he's a Defensive End.

Edited June 27 by BillsFanForever19

[Richard Noggin]

18 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Every recent SB champion had a stud receiving option. The Patriots and Chiefs both had that at TE though. Heck, Brady had Evans in TB. Maybe that’ll be Kincaid for the Bills, but that’s TBD. 

 

The evidence that talent at WR is important in winning games and championships is overwhelming. Even KC, who just won the SB without a stud WR, revamped their WR corps. In any event, the Bills are going to give it a try this season w/o a #1 WR. Let’s see how that goes. 

 

But the so-called elite #1 outside WR is not commonly found on SB winners in recent history. You're absolutely right that teams who win the big game have talented receiving options, but the obsession with this narrow definition of a certain type of alpha WR with length and deep speed isn't actually supported by the results. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

Pass the kool aid. This isn't just a drastic step down from what we had by every possible measurement, it's likely the weakest WR group we've had on paper in the last 40 years.

 

It's a step down, but the weakest WR group "on paper" in the last 40 years?

 

Nah

 

Not even close.

 

C'mon man.

 

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

There's a wide gulf between "Curtis Samuel sucks" and "Curtis Samuel is as good as Stefon Diggs." Everyone else on this board falls somewhere in between that. You're the only one sitting at one extreme.

 

This.  Curtis Samuel is a proven, dependable NFL-quality receiving option.  

He's not peak Stefon Diggs, and a person should be able to acknowledge this without having it twisted as "Samuel sucks".

Edited June 27 by Beck Water

[NewEra]

17 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And it is particularly weak OUTSIDE. I don't think you can run a top offense without any outside threat. Kincaid is really good, Cook if he can sort out the concentration drops in the redzone is really good. Knox is better than many admit, Shakir came on nicely last year and Curtis Samuel is a solid starting calibre receiver. But none of those are true outside matchup winners. And there is a reason that in the NFL, as a rule, the outside pays better than the inside. Tackles earn more than guards. Receivers earn more than tight ends and backs. Corners earn more than safeties. Because that is where it is harder to scheme to hide your deficiencies. Outside. Where it is man on man. And if that is where you lack talent then that is a problem.  

All of this is correct good post-  we should also recognize that the last 3 Super Bowl champs were lacking true outside matchup winners.  Some may say OBj with the rams- but he only played 24 snaps in the SB averaged 38 yards per game.
 

Doesn’t seem like the problem keeps teams from winning the Super Bowl.  

[Bruffalo]

The memes are going to be horrific if Coleman doesn't end up hitting.

 

I think they'll be fine, but it'll likely be Packers post Adams "fine". Which is a nice way of saying the QB propping up a bunch of dudes.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

Pass the kool aid. This isn't just a drastic step down from what we had by every possible measurement, it's likely the weakest WR group we've had on paper in the last 40 years.

We don’t even have to go back past 2018 to be worse.  2017 maybe even worse than that.

 

 

[Mikey152]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

There's a wide gulf between "Curtis Samuel sucks" and "Curtis Samuel is as good as Stefon Diggs." Everyone else on this board falls somewhere in between that. You're the only one sitting at one extreme.

I said, and I quote “give me one reason Curtis Samuel can’t be Stef Diggs in this offense”

 

Instead of reasons, I got jokes, baseless opinions and all kinds of other garbage. No real discussion. But of course, what did I expect…if you all are honest with yourselves you don’t know anything about Curtis Samuel beyond his stats and what you read or saw in highlights.

 

here is what I know FOR A FACT. He is the same size as Diggs, he is extremely explosive, he has had success in the NFL playing running back, slot receiver and flanker, and he has never played with a decent qb since his rookie year.

 

so maybe he isn’t as good as Diggs, but the only proof of that are stats… not even rate stats, but cumulative stats. 
 

Here’s a stat for you…last season Diggs had like 1200 yards on 160 targets. With Josh Allen as his QB. 

Edited June 27 by Mikey152

[Simon]

18 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Instead of reasons, I got jokes, baseless opinions and all kinds of other garbage. No real discussion.

 

I disagree with this; I think you got several bits of good discussion from several other intelligent, thoughtful posters.

Just because they didn't agree with you didn't make them wrong, make their opinions baseless or make their input garbage.

It's OK for people to see things differently; there's no need to insult them for that.

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

All of this is correct good post-  we should also recognize that the last 3 Super Bowl champs were lacking true outside matchup winners.  Some may say OBj with the rams- but he only played 24 snaps in the SB averaged 38 yards per game.
 

Doesn’t seem like the problem keeps teams from winning the Super Bowl.  

Depending on how this season plays out, if the Bills make the Super Bowl with Kincaid as their top receiver, I will officially say WRs are a dime a dozen, spend all your money on the lines and TEs.

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

We don’t even have to go back past 2018 to be worse.  2017 maybe even worse than that.

 

 

Kelvin Benjamin was a former 1000 yard receiver. We all know he turned into a massive dud with us, but that's not who he was coming in. Likewise in 2017 Jordan Matthews would implode, going from a perennial 900 yard player to sub 300 numbers - we also had a rookie Zay Jones who would have a promising sophomore season. They weren't strong years by any means, but I was definitely more optimistic about those groups than I am about the current crop because Benjamin was supposed to be our #1.

We don't even have a #1 on this squad. I like Shakir a lot. I don't hate Samuel, and who knows what Coleman will be, but there's no one in that group you can point to and know they're going to be a major factor. You have to hope.

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

so maybe he isn’t as good as Diggs, but the only proof of that are stats… not even rate stats, but cumulative stats. 
 

Here’s a stat for you…last season Diggs had like 1200 yards on 160 targets. With Josh Allen as his QB. 

He doesn't play the same sport as Diggs. His highest ever yardage total was 850 yards on 97 targets. He'll be a good piece for us, but he can't do what Stefon Diggs did for us, because there are only a handful of guys int he league that can, and he's not one of them.

[JerseyBills]

6 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Pass the kool aid. This isn't just a drastic step down from what we had by every possible measurement, it's likely the weakest WR group we've had on paper in the last 40 years.

I mean like I said,  look at the biggest gm of the year, we had an injury to WR2 . Sherfield,  Harty , Isabella as our replacements, they were awful and so was Diggs. Only Shakir and Kincaid did anything and they return. 

We got much deeper at the position.  A guy like MVS is our 4th or 5th option and put up the 2nd most receiving yards that game behind Kelce.. 

 

Not as top heavy but much deeper,  much bigger and ya there's question marks with Coleman , MVS and Hollins but one or all could do damage and Shakir Samuel and Kincaid should be beasts in this O. It's an interesting group

2 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Kelvin Benjamin was a former 1000 yard receiver. We all know he turned into a massive dud with us, but that's not who he was coming in. Likewise in 2017 Jordan Matthews would implode, going from a perennial 900 yard player to sub 300 numbers - we also had a rookie Zay Jones who would have a promising sophomore season. They weren't strong years by any means, but I was definitely more optimistic about those groups than I am about the current crop because Benjamin was supposed to be our #1.

We don't even have a #1 on this squad. I like Shakir a lot. I don't hate Samuel, and who knows what Coleman will be, but there's no one in that group you can point to and know they're going to be a major factor. You have to hope.

He doesn't play the same sport as Diggs. His highest ever yardage total was 850 yards on 97 targets. He'll be a good piece for us, but he can't do what Stefon Diggs did for us, because there are only a handful of guys int he league that can, and he's not one of them.

HE DOESN'T NEED TO BE DIGGS.. 

[BarleyNY]

8 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

But the so-called elite #1 outside WR is not commonly found on SB winners in recent history. You're absolutely right that teams who win the big game have talented receiving options, but the obsession with this narrow definition of a certain type of alpha WR with length and deep speed isn't actually supported by the results. 

 

The only supporting results are from two teams which had either Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes at QB. (And not even when Brady was in TB.) Generalizing about what a team needs at WR to be championship caliber from that is just wishful thinking by Bills fans. And that’s only because of where we are at WR. So now winning with a pedestrian WR corps has become a popular narrative among many Bills fans, but I heard exactly none of them saying anything of the sort before things went sour with Diggs. Here’s hoping it works out with an ascension from Kincaid and others, but don’t tell me that the Bills wouldn’t be a better team with an elite WR. 

[oldmanfan]

The argument about not having Diggs anymore as a #1 WR, that we don't have anyone to replace him, ad nauseum ignores one basic thing:  the situation for any given player or team is not static.  Take for example the idea that Samuel (or Shakir, or Coleman, or whomever) might be as good as Diggs or might not, as debated above.  The entire argument by those saying Samuel can't be a replacement assumes a static situation where Samuel can never improve or that Diggs will be the Diggs he was for the majority of his career with the Bills.

 

But things are not static in the NFL.  Diggs for example is getting older.  His level of play fell off the last half of last season (whether that was him or Brady's calls we don't know for sure).  Note that the best trade Beane could get was with a team where Diggs will be, at best, the #2 guy and possibly the #3 guy on the Texans (good luck dealing with that in the locker room CJ).  Pundits such as Greg Cosell have noted that Diggs has not been at a #1 talent level for a while now.  So we can't assume Diggs would have been the Diggs of old if we had kept him this year.  I think the odds favor more that his level would have fallen off a bit more.

 

Now take say Samuel.  He is relatively young, can move around from slot to outside, and has put up fairly good numbers despite never having played with a good QB.  It certainly seems possible that Samuel can see a significant uptake in stats with Josh throwing him the ball.  Shakir also came on last year.  So, between these two guys it seems we should have some good guys in the WR corps.  Can we assume one or both of these guys will improve like that?  No.  Is it more likely they improve vs. decline?  Seems likely.

 

Will any of the WRs replace in entirety the contributions of a guy like Diggs, especially the Diggs of his first several years as a Bill?  Doubtful at best.  Can a couple guys like Shakir and Samuel replicate the contributions of Diggs and Davis?  Quite possibly.   One thing I think we can all say with confidence is that, under Brady's direction, Josh will feel freer to spread the ball around to a lot of guys vs. focus on one guy like a Diggs.

 

And having said all this, if Beane was to pull a surprise and make a trade for someone like Aiyuk would I (or anyone else) be disappointed?  Of course not.

Edited June 27 by oldmanfan

[NewEra]

6 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Kelvin Benjamin was a former 1000 yard receiver. We all know he turned into a massive dud with us, but that's not who he was coming in. Likewise in 2017 Jordan Matthews would implode, going from a perennial 900 yard player to sub 300 numbers - we also had a rookie Zay Jones who would have a promising sophomore season. They weren't strong years by any means, but I was definitely more optimistic about those groups than I am about the current crop because Benjamin was supposed to be our #1.

We don't even have a #1 on this squad. I like Shakir a lot. I don't hate Samuel, and who knows what Coleman will be, but there's no one in that group you can point to and know they're going to be a major factor. You have to hope.

He doesn't play the same sport as Diggs. His highest ever yardage total was 850 yards on 97 targets. He'll be a good piece for us, but he can't do what Stefon Diggs did for us, because there are only a handful of guys int he league that can, and he's not one of them.

If you’d like to go by stats:

-Chase claypool had back to back 860+ yard seasons

-Samuel- had 851 yard in his season with Joe Brady 

-MVS won back to back super bowls as starting outside WR

-Keon Coleman drafted higher than Zay Jones

-Shakir- an obvious ascending player that led the league in catch% was among leaders in most efficiency categories

 

You thought Benjamin was a WR1 -  got it 

 

 

 

 

[Billy Claude]

7 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Kelvin Benjamin was a former 1000 yard receiver. We all know he turned into a massive dud with us, but that's not who he was coming in. Likewise in 2017 Jordan Matthews would implode, going from a perennial 900 yard player to sub 300 numbers - we also had a rookie Zay Jones who would have a promising sophomore season. They weren't strong years by any means, but I was definitely more optimistic about those groups than I am about the current crop because Benjamin was supposed to be our #1.
 

 

 

In some cases you are looking at expectations for the year -- "Jordan Matthews was a perennial 900 yard receiver but imploded with the Bills" and in another case you are looking at accomplishments during the season -- " Zay Jones who would have a promising sophomore season".   Picking and choosing which one you want to use to make the argument pretty much destroys its credibility.

The WR room this season looks pretty weak going in but I don't think it was as bad as the 2017 one looked. It has always been my belief that that Bills intended to tank that season and were surprised to be in the playoff hunt.  Anquan Boldin obviously though so too.

 

 

Edited June 27 by Billy Claude

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah Samuel is an 8th year journeyman who will be 28 next week.

 

-Diggs was a little over a year younger when he came to Buffalo.

- Diggs only had 5 years of NFL mileage versus 7 for Samuel.

- Diggs had missed a much smaller % of games.

-And the biggest difference.......Diggs averaged an excellent 925 yards per season in his career while Samuel has averaged a pedestrian 480.   

 

Is it possible for a WR to break out in his 8th or 9th season in the NFL?  

 

I guess?  It's probably happened.

 

Quinn Early did it in his NFL year 7 back in 1994 when he put up the first of four 800-1,000 yard seasons.

 

But it's very rare to break out that late.

 

 

 

And Samuel could have a 1,000 yard season... a career year type season... like John Brown did here (I know he already had one 1k year in his past) but that wouldn't make him a #1 outside receiver talent just like it didn't make John Brown one. It would say more about the fact he is playing with Josh Allen and the lack of alternatives in the Bills' passing attack. 

[NewEra]

7 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Depending on how this season plays out, if the Bills make the Super Bowl with Kincaid as their top receiver, I will officially say WRs are a dime a dozen, spend all your money on the lines and TEs.

I wouldn’t say they are a dime a dozen- rather just not necessary to win a SB