I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[Mikey152]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And it is particularly weak OUTSIDE. I don't think you can run a top offense without any outside threat. Kincaid is really good, Cook if he can sort out the concentration drops in the redzone is really good. Knox is better than many admit, Shakir came on nicely last year and Curtis Samuel is a solid starting calibre receiver. But none of those are true outside matchup winners. And there is a reason that in the NFL, as a rule, the outside pays better than the inside. Tackles earn more than guards. Receivers earn more than tight ends and backs. Corners earn more than safeties. Because that is where it is harder to scheme to hide your deficiencies. Outside. Where it is man on man. And if that is where you lack talent then that is a problem.  

 

OK...give me one reason Curtis Samuel can't be Stef Diggs in this offense.

 

On the other side, all we really need is one of Coleman, MVS and Claypool to step up...doesn't even need to be them same guy each week. None of them HAVE done it for a full season in the NFL, but all of them have the talent TO do it.

Edited June 26 by Mikey152

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

And yet, every time 2023 KC receivers are brought up, you get some combination of "but Mahomes/Kelce/Reid"

KC loved their receivers so much last year than they signed a former first round pick AND drafted one in the first to pair with their emerging star WR drafted in the second round last year.

 

The Bills brought in a dude they cut to make room for those dudes. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, FireChans said:

KC loved their receivers so much last year than they signed a former first round pick AND drafted one in the first to pair with their emerging star WR drafted in the second round last year.

 

The Bills brought in a dude they cut to make room for those dudes. 

They also brought in Samuel and Coleman so its not as if they have much more in the way of expectations for MVS than KC ever did.  

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

Samuel is going to surprise some of the haters in here next season. He's a talented player

[Mikey152]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

KC loved their receivers so much last year than they signed a former first round pick AND drafted one in the first to pair with their emerging star WR drafted in the second round last year.

 

The Bills brought in a dude they cut to make room for those dudes. 

That's a bit disingenuous...

 

Bills top pick was a WR, they signed KCs top paid WR from 2023, they signed CS who has similar production on less targets than Brown, and they signed a few lottery tickets to tiny deals in Claypool and Hamler (both recent second rounders). All while eating 31 million for Diggs.

3 minutes ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

Samuel is going to surprise some of the haters in here next season. He's a talented player

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hByI7mysVKM

Edited June 26 by Mikey152

[GolfandBills]

10 minutes ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

Samuel is going to surprise some of the haters in here next season. He's a talented player

He’s definitely being forgotten/downplayed.  He’s got some serious talent and speed.  

[HappyDays]

53 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

OK...give me one reason Curtis Samuel can't be Stef Diggs in this offense.

 

Honestly man nobody can convince you that Curtis Samuel doesn't have Diggs' skill set. That is something that 99% of football fans just know to be true. This statement is the height of blind homerism. I respect finding reasons to be optimistic, I really do, but you still have to be at least a little realistic.

 

Edited June 26 by HappyDays

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

23 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Honestly man nobody can convince you that Curtis Samuel doesn't have Diggs' skill set. That is something that 99% of football fans just know to be true. This statement is the height of blind homerism. I respect finding reasons to be optimistic, I really do, but you still have to be at least a little realistic.

 

 

Stef of today? Like last 10 games Stef? IDK man, I think your memory of him inb seasons past might be blinding you here

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Mikey152 said:

 

OK...give me one reason Curtis Samuel can't be Stef Diggs in this offense.

 

On the other side, all we really need is one of Coleman, MVS and Claypool to step up...doesn't even need to be them same guy each week. None of them HAVE done it for a full season in the NFL, but all of them have the talent TO do it.

 

Because he isn't as talented as Stef Diggs.

[eball]

2 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

OK...give me one reason Curtis Samuel can't be Stef Diggs in this offense.

 

LOL...even I read this and wondered WTF you were smoking.  

[Mikey152]

44 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Because he isn't as talented as Stef Diggs.

Says who?

 

He was a second round pick, Diggs was a 5th.

 

He ran a 4.3 and is every bit that fast. Diggs ran a 4.46

 

Samuel is 5'11 195 and Diggs 6' 191. Arm length is identical and both have decent sized hands.

 

It has nothing to do with talent. I would argue CS is a MORE TALENTED player than Diggs. He just hasn't been as productive for whatever reason. Mostly injury and team related, IMO.

 

People seem to forget that even Diggs wasn't really Diggs until he got to Buffalo and his targets went way up. 

1 minute ago, eball said:

 

LOL...even I read this and wondered WTF you were smoking.  

Then you never really saw him play.

 

I watched him live in college, and he is one of the most talented players I have ever seen.

[Mikey152]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Honestly man nobody can convince you that Curtis Samuel doesn't have Diggs' skill set. That is something that 99% of football fans just know to be true. This statement is the height of blind homerism. I respect finding reasons to be optimistic, I really do, but you still have to be at least a little realistic.

 

It has nothing to do with Homerism.

 

I live in Columbus. I remember his 2016 season. He was one of the best football players I have ever seen. 

 

I actually think YOUR homerism is blinding w/ regards to Diggs. We apply this revisionist history that he was this dominant #1 his whole career, or that he was even a first team all pro for the Bills outside of 2020. 

Edited June 26 by Mikey152

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Says who?

 

He was a second round pick, Diggs was a 5th.

 

He ran a 4.3 and is every bit that fast. Diggs ran a 4.46

 

Samuel is 5'11 195 and Diggs 6' 191. Arm length is identical and both have decent sized hands.

 

It has nothing to do with talent. I would argue CS is a MORE TALENTED player than Diggs. He just hasn't been as productive for whatever reason. Mostly injury and team related, IMO.

 

People seem to forget that even Diggs wasn't really Diggs until he got to Buffalo and his targets went way up. 

Then you never really saw him play.

 

I watched him live in college, and he is one of the most talented players I have ever seen.

 

I'm sorry he is just not. Diggs went in the 5th because he was injured in college and stayed home to go to Maryland. He had other offers. Stef stood out as soon as he walked on an NFL field. I like Curtis Samuel. But he is not close to as talented as Stefon Diggs.

1 hour ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

 

Stef of today? Like last 10 games Stef? IDK man, I think your memory of him inb seasons past might be blinding you here

 

Oh Curtis Samuel can probably do that. Sure. But the problem at the end of last season was we lack guys who could truly win 1v1 outside. Once Stef was doing that less it became MUCH easier to gameplan to stop the Bills. 

2 hours ago, Slippery Rubber Mats said:

Samuel is going to surprise some of the haters in here next season. He's a talented player

 

I agree he is talented. But he isn't a game breaking outside receiver. He is a nice inside / outside move receiver. Would it shock me if he put up 1,000 yards? No. Would it shock me if he was consistently beating #1 outside corners 1v1? Yes. 

[Mikey152]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm sorry he is just not. Diggs went in the 5th because he was injured in college and stayed home to go to Maryland. He had other offers. Stef stood out as soon as he walked on an NFL field. I like Curtis Samuel. But he is not close to as talented as Stefon Diggs.

 

Oh Curtis Samuel can probably do that. Sure. But the problem at the end of last season was we lack guys who could truly win 1v1 outside. Once Stef was doing that less it became MUCH easier to gameplan to stop the Bills. 

 

I agree he is talented. But he isn't a game breaking outside receiver. He is a nice inside / outside move receiver. Would it shock me if he put up 1,000 yards? No. Would it shock me if he was consistently beating #1 outside corners 1v1? Yes. 

 

This is your opinion. This is not fact.

 

I stated facts and measurables. Posted a video from the same guy that everyone cites when it comes to Coleman being a big slot saying that Samuel is great and highly underrated and isn't just a gadget/slot guy. And still, I get subjective nonsense from people who probably havent even seen him play.

 

You can call me a homer if you want, but I guarantee I am more informed than most of the people weighing in on this thread.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26 by Mikey152

[HappyDays]

34 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

I actually think YOUR homerism is blinding w/ regards to Diggs. We apply this revisionist history that he was this dominant #1 his whole career, or that he was even a first team all pro for the Bills outside of 2020. 

 

They are different WRs with different skill sets and different roles they fit in the offense. Their strengths and weaknesses are almost polar opposites. It's like trying to compare Cole Beasley with AJ Brown. You're alone on this one, man.

[Mikey152]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They are different WRs with different skill sets and different roles they fit in the offense. Their strengths and weaknesses are almost polar opposites. It's like trying to compare Cole Beasley with AJ Brown. You're alone on this one, man.

How so?

 

Again, you're making this up based on perception, not reality. Watch the Matt Harmon video.

 

Curtis Samuel wins 75%+ of his snaps against man coverage EVERY season. He is one of the best man coverage separators in the league. You know what made Diggs Diggs prior to his mini-collapse?  He was one of the best man coverage separators in the league.

 

They are literally the same size and have practically the same skill set, only Samuel is even faster and better with the ball in his hands.

 

Just remember this thread after the season.

 

 

Edited June 26 by Mikey152

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

This is your opinion. This is not fact.

 

I stated facts and measurables. Posted a video from the same guy that everyone cites when it comes to Coleman being a big slot saying that Samuel is great and highly underrated and isn't just a gadget/slot guy. And still, I get subjective nonsense from people who probably havent even seen him play.

 

You can call me a homer if you want, but I guarantee I am more informed than most of the people weighing in on this thread.

 

 

Trust me I have seen him play plenty. He is not as talented as Stefon Diggs. If wide receiver was just measurables it would be an easy game. Stef was the best route runner in the NFL. That might not show up on a combine drill but it is the single most important talent for receivers in football. And I called Coleman a big slot on here way earlier in the draft season than Matt Harmon. So I'm not someone who parrots opinions I am someone who watches the film and a lot of it. I think Samuel is good. I haven't called him just a gadget guy or even just a slot guy. He can play outside. He can have 1,000 yards in this offense, like John Brown did in 2019, but John Brown wasn't a game breaking outside receiver either. That is the thing we do not have on this roster.

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Curtis Samuel wins 75%+ of his snaps against man coverage EVERY season. He is one of the best man coverage separators in the league. You know what made Diggs Diggs prior to his mini-collapse?  He was one of the best man coverage separators in the league.

 

And yet Diggs in his prime averaged 1,400 yards a season in our offense. Samuel is not going to get 1,400 yards. I'm sorry, it's just not going to happen. What you're doing is the definition of paralysis by analysis. Occam's razor - a career 600ish yard WR is not going to suddenly double his career average. Because Allen will be throwing him the ball and he'll likely be the 2nd best skill player on the field at any time I expect he will produce more than he did last year if he stays healthy. But he is not going to become a dominant #1 WR like Diggs was just because of one out-of-context metric in Matt Harmon's charting. Diggs in his prime could beat man coverage anywhere on the field againat any pass defender. Samuel is a mismatch against LBs and slot CBs who can sometimes win outside in favorable situations. Those are not the same thing.

[Mikey152]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Trust me I have seen him play plenty. He is not as talented as Stefon Diggs. If wide receiver was just measurables it would be an easy game. Stef was the best route runner in the NFL. That might not show up on a combine drill but it is the single most important talent for receivers in football. And I called Coleman a big slot on here way earlier in the draft season than Matt Harmon. So I'm not someone who parrots opinions I am someone who watches the film and a lot of it. I think Samuel is good. I haven't called him just a gadget guy or even just a slot guy. He can play outside. He can have 1,000 yards in this offense, like John Brown did in 2019, but John Brown wasn't a game breaking outside receiver either. That is the thing we do not have on this roster.

 

Please, enlighten me on how you quantify that Diggs was the best route runner in the NFL...that is completely subjective. 

 

The difference between John Brown and Diggs/Samuel is size. He, too, was an elite separator, but with a much smaller frame. As a result, he wasn't going to be able to be as physical as a Diggs or Samuel.

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

And yet Diggs in his prime averaged 1,400 yards a season in our offense. Samuel is not going to get 1,400 yards. I'm sorry, it's just not going to happen. What you're doing is the definition of paralysis by analysis. Occam's razor - a career 600ish yard WR is not going to suddenly double his career average. Because Allen will be throwing him the ball and he'll likely be the 2nd best skill player on the field at any time I expect he will produce more than he did last year if he stays healthy. But he is not going to become a dominant #1 WR like Diggs was just because of one out-of-context metric in Matt Harmon's charting. Diggs in his prime could beat man coverage anywhere on the field againat any pass defender. Samuel is a mismatch against LBs and slot CBs who can sometimes win outside in favorable situations. Those are not the same thing.

On 160 targets.  He had two seasons at 9+ ypt (great) and two at 7.5 (pretty bad for an outside WR with that many touches).

 

In his one season with Joe Brady, Samuel averaged 8.8 ypt. at 160 targets, that's 1400 yards. His win rates are similar to Diggs, so he gets open enough...whether he gets that many targets is TBD, but doubtful...my guess is they don't target anyone that much.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

Please, enlighten me on how you quantify that Diggs was the best route runner in the NFL...that is completely subjective. 

 

The difference between John Brown and Diggs/Samuel is size. He, too, was an elite separator, but with a much smaller frame. As a result, he wasn't going to be able to be as physical as a Diggs or Samuel.

 

His separation rates have consistently been top 6 year on year. It dropped last year but even then only very marginally. 

 

So no, it is not completely subjective. It is backed by the numbers. 

 

The difference between Samuel and Diggs is talent. Samuel is a good NFL receiver. Prime Stefon Diggs was elite.