I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better

[LarryMadman]

I'm just going to go with addition by subtraction and the simple fact Josh won't feel pressure to get Diggs the ball all the time will allow him to be better.

Edited June 23 by LarryMadman

[Let's Go Buffalo]

I'm looking forward to see they can all do collectively. I feel like it gives Josh more options to spread it around a bit more. 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

The other way of phrasing this is that having a #1 WR is worse than not having a #1 WR, and that statement is obviously false. Yes you want to spread the ball around, but having a true go-to pass catcher that defenses have to think about and give extra attention to is obviously a massive benefit that we aren't likely to have this year. There have been multiple games over the last four years where force feeding the ball to Diggs was in fact the solution to getting the offense out of a rut, so in those cases the defenses knowing where the ball was going was actually better than spreading the ball around.

 

This isn't Madden where Allen can scan the entire field at once and throw to the "most open" target. He will have to go through his progressions, and his targets along that progression will have to get open in order for the play to be successful, like any other offense. We can only "spread the ball around" if skill players are winning their matchups.

 

In general though I don't know how to answer whether or not the pass catchers got "better" than last year because last year is split into two - before Diggs fell off a cliff and after. Like if the question is, will the Bills pass catchers be better than the group we had on the field against KC at the very end, that is a very different question from will the Bills pass catchers be better than what we had on the field from week 1 to week 6. I think the better more consistent question is "will the Bills pass catchers be championship caliber?" and on that I have very serious doubts.

 

I cannot argue against your logic.

But to the bolded , I am not sure they need to be.

Defense need to play much better when the heat is on.

 Josh can make plays with most all of his targets. Can Brady scheme them open and give/teach Josh the  right progressions to find those guys. Fixing that , will do wonders.

[klos63]

40 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

It might very well be because of our wide receivers room at the time, the ever disappearing late and post season Diggs, and Gabe the “ankle” Davis with his perennial injuries, our supposed two best options, and then outside of Shakir and Kincaid, with a sprinkling of Cook we were not in a position of strength, just a thought…, 

Or Brady didn't have a good game plan to include WR 's.

I just don't understand how the Bills thought he was the best OC available, or what fans see in him that looks so great. 

[Dr. Who]

3 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Or Brady didn't have a good game plan to include WR 's.

I just don't understand how the Bills thought he was the best OC available, or what fans see in him that looks so great. 

If the strength of our WR room is depth, with question marks at best at the top, and the OC turns out to be mediocre and lacking innovative qualities, it's going to be a long year. Folks want hope, so they're not going to buy this narrative. I sure hope you are wrong.

[Chaos]

Super quiet. 

[Playoffs?]

I don’t know… my big question is: who is going to command double coverage?  Diggs was double covered a lot, freeing up guys like Shakir and Davis.  Who is going to help free up Shakir this season?

 

If one of our guys develops into someone that can require some additional coverage, we’ll be just fine.

[Mikie2times]

I think it's a better group. It's the first time we ever complimented Josh with guys who are open when covered. He is going to make a ton of plays downfield that are off schedule. Even more than the past. Even if Coleman is slow coming along he will be hard to deal with when Josh breaks contain. Which is such a huge part of his game that wasn't maximized with the smurfs. You just don't want Coleman singled up downfield in a jump ball situation. You certainly don't want Claypool in that spot either. It's going to put a lot of pressure on defenses to stay in two high looks which will open up the run game and underneath stuff.

 

Speaking of underneath stuff Samuel is really the first of his kind since Allen got here. A poor mans Deebo who can do a lot of similar things. That space the deep threats will provide will give him a lot of wiggle in WR screens and underneath work. That is something Shakir can really excel at as well with his YAC ability. Then perhaps one of the least talked about additions of this team is Kincaid being in his 2nd year. I think a pro bowl TE is more valuable than Diggs or Davis and perhaps both combined. I expect Kincaid to be at or near that level after this year.

 

Claypool looks like he understands its now or never. If so what a haul for us. This IS likely a #1 WR we added for peanuts. I'm not very bullish on Coleman year 1 with how daunting it can be to be for a rookie in our system but I do think Coleman will add a ton of RZ value and contribute in the ways I discussed above. Also with some underneath possession work which he has shown strength in. 

 

Davis was the definition of a one trick pony. Diggs was not himself for most of last year. Shakir and Kincaid had yet to reach max output until maybe the very end of last season and perhaps they never did. This was a very weak group last season. I think the star power of Diggs and comfort of a returning starter in Davis covered for just how bad the diversity was. By the end of the year that one and two option was barely even used and I don't think it was random. Easy to scheme for, easy to take away. The passing game will be much more unpredictable this year and it will threaten teams in more diverse ways than anything we have seen in a long time. 

 

 

 

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

If we all viewed a rundown of receiving talent not knowing what teams they all played for, there isn’t a fan in the bunch who would elevate this group out of the bottom third of the league. I’d love to be wrong, but I certainly wouldn’t bet the mortgage on that being the case. 

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, NeverOutNick said:

I don’t think we’re “better”. I think we’re deeper. 
 

This is how I see it:

 

Last year                This year

Diggs                       Shakir

Davis                       Coleman

Shakir                      Samuel

Harty                       Claypool

Sherfield                  MVS

                                 Hollins 

                                 Hamler

 

Shakir is our #1 for this year and he’s earned that role even if he’s not built like a true #1. Will Coleman be the guy eventually? Maybe. He’s a big target that snatches the ball out of the air but isn’t a great separator just yet. 
 

Samuel is not special. He’s been the #2 or 3 option on every team he’s ever been on because he’s not a great route runner or even a deep threat (surprising for a guy who is so fast). He is a fun gadget player who is a way better version of what McKenzie was supposed to be. 
 

Claypool has the most upside of any player left and seems like he’s proving it in camp. I hope he finally puts it all together and isn’t just a nice preseason story. 
 

MVS is a deep threat who drops a lot of catchable balls. I don’t think he’s a lock to make the team but he’s a big deep threat so he’s safer than most. 
 

Hollins is the special teams dude captain that McDermott loves. On most teams he wouldn’t be a lock but he probably is with our safe conservative head coach.

 

Hamler had all world potential. He is just never healthy. If he’s finally healthy I’d leapfrog him into the top 4 discussion because of his skill set to break the top off the d and ability to score a TD any time the ball is in his hands either punt return or catching the ball from Josh. 
 

it’s a much deeper WR room than last year which is good because of injuries but it’s not “better”. Diggs, even if last year was a down year, is a true #1 type WR who has mastered route running and outside of last year was always clutch in big moments. Hopefully someone steps up to be that guy this year but I was hoping we traded up for that guy in Odunze in the draft (not bitching because I’m sure it was discussed but too expensive) 

 

I am quietly optimistic about this years WR room but I am not expecting anyone to be a true #1 target at WR. If anything I think that guy will be Kincaid 

I completely agree, we were way more top heavy but much deeper now and with our main guy Diggs being invisible in our biggest games, it makes you wonder, would I rather have great depth or an elite talent? 

With how KC has won it, it's definitely depth. An elite TE and RB doesn't hurt and we have that too. 

I agree about Kincaid but imso high on Shakir, I really think he's going to explode on the scene  and Samuel is a beast, it'll be fun watching him with an elite qb

[klos63]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

If the strength of our WR room is depth, with question marks at best at the top, and the OC turns out to be mediocre and lacking innovative qualities, it's going to be a long year. Folks want hope, so they're not going to buy this narrative. I sure hope you are wrong.

I hope I'm wrong too.

Then I'll go on about our safeties, center and pass rush. 

[JerseyBills]

5 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

What we're going to find out this season is that "the 2nd half version of Diggs" was entirely due to Brady's use of him, not because of Diggs himself. 

 

Just as these progressive revelations have revealed, there's more to the Diggs drama than is now out publicly.  

 

Just remember, last year at this time, any notion of any Diggs drama was a "nothing burger," which clearly wasn't true.  

 

Allen's completion % and rating under Brady didn't plummet into the realm of the bottom-dwelling because of Diggs.  

 

Season long under Brady if it held for a full season, Allen would have finished ranked 30th & 23rd respectively, and ahead of absolutely no one significant.  

 

If that doesn't change, drastically, them were in trouble this season.  

 

 

 

When the last time a 21-year old WR did anything in the NFL?

 

IDK, I'm sincerely asking, but it's tough to envision that it happened to any significant extent. 

 

... Just looked.  Jefferson, Keenan Allen, Chase, Moss, Cooper and Evans.

 

Coleman's not even close to being in their company.  

 

 

I honestly don't care. Went 7-2 , including 5 straight to end the year , Allen was Allen when needed. 

 

Brady is a big upgrade over Dorsey imo. it's deeper than the stats, it's about the W bottom line and we dominated vs KC in 1st downs t.o.p was like 38-22 min. Total yards we edged em. 2 missed kicks n 2 big drops missed vs KC making those plays defined that gm n prevented Buf from a AFC title gm.. 

 

[Buffalo03]

Like mute button quiet? Or just turning the volume down for 30 to 10 quiet?

[JerseyBills]

57 minutes ago, Let's Go Buffalo said:

I'm looking forward to see they can all do collectively. I feel like it gives Josh more options to spread it around a bit more. 

let him be like a point guard, no diva in between series barking at him, demanding the ball. This WR/TE/RB group is extremely talented and will turn heads

 

And can't forget about how the run game makes life easier on 17. it was non existent under Dorsey

Edited June 23 by JerseyBills

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Moore and Robbie Anderson were both great. That receiving corps was better than the Bills' current one and Samuel was their third option. He should be the Bills' 4th option behind Kincaid, Shakir, and Coleman. The big difference between that Carolina team and this Bills team is the tight ends.

 

OK, so factor the TEs in then.  Carolina had nothing even approaching Kincaid.  

 

Anderson who?  We were talking about Samuel's "big season" at Carolina.  (2021)   I see Robbie Chosen, undrafted prospect out of Temple.  OK, but far from great.  

 

If you can find another notable WR/TE receiving talent on that team besides Moore, let me know.  

 

 

[Don Otreply]

44 minutes ago, klos63 said:

Or Brady didn't have a good game plan to include WR 's.

I just don't understand how the Bills thought he was the best OC available, or what fans see in him that looks so great. 

I can understand that view, it is valid. I guess we got what we got, so I tend to look at what can work with what it appears they are trying to do, hoping for the best…,  as an aside and to repeat myself, Diggs was not all that during the last part of the regular season or the playoffs as usual, imo it was that he was being required to share more targets and he pouted his way off the team with his lack of effort, and as I said he and Davis were non existent the latter portion of the regular season and playoffs, leaving first and second year pros to take up their slack, not a hard task for decent defenses to deal with,

[Ethan in Cleveland]

The drop off in WR#1 is astounding. This board and Allen are going to miss Diggs on 3rd down. 

I agree with OP there is massive improvement in WR 3-5. 

So while I think Diggs will be missed terribly, the group overall might be good enough when you add in Cook, Kincaid, and Knox. 

Brady just needs to design it and Allen needs to execute.

[TBBills Fan]

I had a fear the other day. 

 

My fear was Leggette ends up balling out and Coleman is just meh. 

 

I'd be happy to see both ball out.  

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I don't agree that McD is shoving anything down Brady's neck.  And I'm not: "not looking, or rather, turning the other way."  That's simply a silly assertion that adds no value to your argument.    

 

What do you think that the whole complimentary football thing is, which is driven entirely by McD, as opposed to Allen doing what Allen does best, which isn't that.  Hence the drop-off.  

 

 

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

But I do agree that the offense did not look good under Brady. 

 

The pass attack didn't get more productive - though it did get less self-destructive with fewer picks.

 

That's false.  Under Dorsey Allen posted 1.1 INTs/game, under Brady, 1.0, no significant difference. 

 

We also have to ask ourselves whether that trade-off did us good or not.  If the offense didn't look good, was notably less efficient, with Allen's performance metrics dropping into the abyss, what's the point.  If that's the point, just run the ball by Cook for infinite 3 and outs and have zero picks.  

 

Besides, as others have accurately pointed out, some of Allen's picks were deep in opponent territory resulting in "as good as punts."  

 

 

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

Cook didn't run better.  We all remember the Dallas game.  But as I recall, Cook's YPC was lower under Brady versus Dorsey.

 

Significantly lower.  I've posted how much many times.  

 

 

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

And Diggs didn't suddenly get old/lose a step at midseason.  He certainly got less productive under Brady and you have to consider the possibility that Brady did a poorer job scheming him open.

 

That's exactly the case and can easily be seen.  

 

 

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I recall seeing someone charting receivers by yards of separation.  Interestingly, both Davis and Diggs were in the lower half of the league.  Lack of talent or poor scheme?  Hard to know.  But Shakir and Kincaid were in the upper half.  Maybe this helps explain why we got rid of who we got rid of and kept who we kept.  

 

Is there another logical conclusion?    

 

 

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

One thing people don't talk about enough is execution.  Yes, an OC needs to scheme up a good game plan and then do a good job calling plays on game day.  But he also needs to get the players to execute the plays at a high level.  The Pats offense was good at this in their glory years.  I'm no expert but when I rewatched some of the games, I didn't think we executed all that well under Dorsey.  Receivers sometime ran lazy routes or were inconsistent when/where they made cuts.  And clearly the communication between Davis and Allen seemed off at times.  If the execution got any better under Brady, I didn't see it.  

 

We have been underachieving the entire time that Allen's been here.  Our offense under Allen is capable of so much more than we're getting, and our perennially diminishing overall team offensive production validates that.  

 

 

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I can't say I was happy when Brady was named the OC going forward.  But I am cautiously encouraged that Allen seems excited about the changes Brady (not McD) is making to the offensive scheme.  

 

I'm not optimistic at all.  Hoping it works, but to me this is a hope against hope situation.  There's absolutely nothing suggestive that Brady's going to be better than average as an OC if even that.  What we do will, as usual, hinge upon Allen's individual performances, very little having to do with Brady's scheming.  

 

As to Brady, I'm pretty sure that by season's end more people will realize the extent to which McD has his thumb on Brady.  We shall see.  There are going to be more questions than solutions by season's end.  

 

 

[PBF81]

30 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I honestly don't care. Went 7-2 , including 5 straight to end the year , Allen was Allen when needed. 

 

Brady is a big upgrade over Dorsey imo. it's deeper than the stats, it's about the W bottom line and we dominated vs KC in 1st downs t.o.p was like 38-22 min. Total yards we edged em. 2 missed kicks n 2 big drops missed vs KC making those plays defined that gm n prevented Buf from a AFC title gm.. 

 

 

If you don't care, why comment?  

 

Your "analysis" is trivial.  

 

And yes, when all else fails, like our offense sputtering to end the season unable to average more than 20 PPG in our last three RS games, that's what out staff does, throws its hands into the air and "lets Allen be Allen."  That's not coaching or leadership, is throwing one's hands up into the air.  It's reasonable to suspect that they don't mind doing that for a few playoff games, just not all season.