HappyDays Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 48 minutes ago, Billl said: What makes you think that Samuel who signed a 3 year, $24 million contract is an improvement over Davis who signed a 3 year, $39 million contract? In three more season played, Samuel has 650 more yards and 5 fewer TDs than Gabe. I can see how he could be a better value at their respective price tags, but Davis got 63% more on the open market with nearly double the guaranteed money. Davis got a joke of a contract that the Jags are going to quickly regret, much like another bumbling former Bills WR they overpaid in Zay Jones. You know contracts aren't how we judge the quality of players, unless you also think Albert Haynesworth is a Hall of Famer. And get out of here with "nearly double." $24M is not "nearly double" $15M. I don't know if I can say Samuel is a definitive improvement over Davis because they couldn't be more different as players and it's hard to compare such disparate roles in the offense, but Samuel will absolutely be more efficient and less mistake prone. Samuel had more yards per route run than Davis last year despite a substantially worse QB situation. My biggest concern with him is health. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmotionallyUnstable Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 2 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Davis got a joke of a contract that the Jags are going to quickly regret, much like another bumbling former Bills WR they overpaid in Zay Jones. You know contracts aren't how we judge the quality of players, unless you also think Albert Haynesworth is a Hall of Famer. And get out of here with "nearly double." $24M is not "nearly double" $15M. I don't know if I can say Samuel is a definitive improvement over Davis because they couldn't be more different as players and it's hard to compare such disparate roles in the offense, but Samuel will absolutely be more efficient and less mistake prone. Samuel had more yards per route run than Davis last year despite a substantially worse QB situation. My biggest concern with him is health. Right. This is why I’m constantly surprised at people comparing the two as if it is apples to apples. If they want to look at swapping out one player for the next, I think you’re more likely to see Samuel in the Diggs role that was saw down the stretch last year, with Coleman taking the Davis snaps. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 1 hour ago, klos63 said: Like many have mentioned, Cook and Kincaid will be the focus of the offense's targets. The WR will be complementary pieces to the offense. Brady couldn't or didn't want to get the ball to Diggs and Davis after he took over, wondering if he can do anything with the new group. I would say he didn't want to. They needed to right the ship after that 6-6 start, so they threw the ol' curve ball at the defenses. They relied heavily on their running game and unproven receivers, who defenses weren't focused on, and it worked out. They can't do that this year, obviously. These unproven receivers are now proven, and also don't have the proven guys taking attention off of them. McD will still want Brady to emphasize the running game in order to play complimentary football. As long as the running game is successful, the intermediate routes should still be open. This off-season, they acquired receiving targets specifically for Brady's offense. They may be a poor man's version of what Brady had at Carolina and LSU, but Brady still knows exactly how to use them in order to be successful. The big question mark for Brady is the TEs, which have never been an emphasis of his offense. Dalton Kincaid did just fine last year, which is a good sign. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 (edited) 6 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said: Right. This is why I’m constantly surprised at people comparing the two as if it is apples to apples. If they want to look at swapping out one player for the next, I think you’re more likely to see Samuel in the Diggs role that was saw down the stretch last year, with Coleman taking the Davis snaps. Samuel is going to be Isaiah McKenzie/Deonte Harty in the offense, just a much much much better version of them. Beane this offseason has called Samuel a "weapon" and "not a traditional WR." They've been trying for years to plug that role with cheap talent and it just hasn't worked, so Beane finally relented and shelled out mid-tier money to get the role locked down with a real talent. Hamler and Isabella are probably competing for a PS spot to be Samuel's de facto backup. Edited June 23 by HappyDays 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 I agree, at least for the first part of the season opposing DCs will be guessing at what we are going to do on offense, spreading the ball around is always tougher for defenses to deal with than them always knowing who our first option is…, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 5 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: I would say he didn't want to. They needed to right the ship after that 6-6 start, so they threw the ol' curve ball at the defenses. They relied heavily on their running game and unproven receivers, who defenses weren't focused on, and it worked out. They can't do that this year, obviously. These unproven receivers are now proven, and also don't have the proven guys taking attention off of them. McD will still want Brady to emphasize the running game in order to play complimentary football. As long as the running game is successful, the intermediate routes should still be open. This off-season, they acquired receiving targets specifically for Brady's offense. They may be a poor man's version of what Brady had at Carolina and LSU, but Brady still knows exactly how to use them in order to be successful. The big question mark for Brady is the TEs, which have never been an emphasis of his offense. Dalton Kincaid did just fine last year, which is a good sign. Not sure how accurate a statement that is. Jury is out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 18 minutes ago, PBF81 said: He also had 97 targets, no receiving talent on that team that was worth a turd besides Moore, and a 79.4% Catch%. How many targets do you see him getting here? Do you see him repeating that Catch%? Moore and Robbie Anderson were both great. That receiving corps was better than the Bills' current one and Samuel was their third option. He should be the Bills' 4th option behind Kincaid, Shakir, and Coleman. The big difference between that Carolina team and this Bills team is the tight ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 4 minutes ago, klos63 said: Not sure how accurate a statement that is. Jury is out. Why? The one constant during Brady's career as an OC has been the success of his WRs. The jury is still out on his use of TEs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverOutNick Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 4 hours ago, JerseyBills said: Lets just start with the top 5 WRs, Bills just dropped a video yesterday or the day before , so pretty much confirmed our top 5.. Last year This year Diggs Coleman Davis Samuel Shakir Shakir Harty Hollins Sherfield MVS There's obviously a huge question mark with Coleman, as with any rookie WR but should be dynamic in this O. I'm huge on Shakir, I really think he's going to be a stud this year and eclipse 1k yards. Huge fan of Samuel, he does it all, you can put this guy anywhere, including the backfield and he's explosive and makes plays and that was on a terrible O with terrible QB play. Skys the limit, loved the signing. Hollins is interesting but he's an elite run blocker , which Brady has shown, we're running the ball, bottom line , and not a great year statistically last year but I could see him having his 22 season where he put up 57 rec 690 yards 4 TDs. This was Gabe his first 2 years and this is his replacement for much cheaper. Plus he's a certified leader.. MVS , yes the drops and statistically wasn't great in the regular season but you can argue he's the reason KC won the SB. In our game he had 62 yards, 17 more yards than Kincaid who was our top guy w 45 yards. Would've loved to have him in January last year. Made huge big , long catches. Meanwhile Diggs is dropping wide open TDs which win us that game.. And at 6 , Claypool, Hamler, Shorter etc will fight it out Bottom line , this is a much deeper WR group. Harty/Sherfield were busts, they were awful. And with Gabe injured vs KC, it showed how weak our depth was. No offense, but I never want to see Andy Isabella playing in a playoff game and that won't happen again with the depth added. Sherfield/Harty also had no business being out there. Obviously Coleman is a huge key to this group and puzzle but I see no reason he can't be the guy we expect him to be. Plus Kincaid year 2. Cook year 3. Upgraded RB room This is going to be a fun O to watch. Probably the best we've seen with Allen because of WR depth, elite RB/TE and Brady calling plays *Not to crap on Diggs, I really admire his game and intensity, I have him as my profile picture but the fact that Beane ate 30+ mil and took a future 2, clearly they thought he was just to disruptive in the locker room, as a leader. The Cincy game leaving his teammates, as a captain, speaks volumes. McBeane has built this team on family and doing your 1/11th on o and d and Diggs just didn't fit that culture. Good luck but good riddance I don’t think we’re “better”. I think we’re deeper. This is how I see it: Last year This year Diggs Shakir Davis Coleman Shakir Samuel Harty Claypool Sherfield MVS Hollins Hamler Shakir is our #1 for this year and he’s earned that role even if he’s not built like a true #1. Will Coleman be the guy eventually? Maybe. He’s a big target that snatches the ball out of the air but isn’t a great separator just yet. Samuel is not special. He’s been the #2 or 3 option on every team he’s ever been on because he’s not a great route runner or even a deep threat (surprising for a guy who is so fast). He is a fun gadget player who is a way better version of what McKenzie was supposed to be. Claypool has the most upside of any player left and seems like he’s proving it in camp. I hope he finally puts it all together and isn’t just a nice preseason story. MVS is a deep threat who drops a lot of catchable balls. I don’t think he’s a lock to make the team but he’s a big deep threat so he’s safer than most. Hollins is the special teams dude captain that McDermott loves. On most teams he wouldn’t be a lock but he probably is with our safe conservative head coach. Hamler had all world potential. He is just never healthy. If he’s finally healthy I’d leapfrog him into the top 4 discussion because of his skill set to break the top off the d and ability to score a TD any time the ball is in his hands either punt return or catching the ball from Josh. it’s a much deeper WR room than last year which is good because of injuries but it’s not “better”. Diggs, even if last year was a down year, is a true #1 type WR who has mastered route running and outside of last year was always clutch in big moments. Hopefully someone steps up to be that guy this year but I was hoping we traded up for that guy in Odunze in the draft (not bitching because I’m sure it was discussed but too expensive) I am quietly optimistic about this years WR room but I am not expecting anyone to be a true #1 target at WR. If anything I think that guy will be Kincaid 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 9 minutes ago, klos63 said: Not sure how accurate a statement that is. Jury is out. IMO, it leans noticeably more toward the accurate side of the scale, it’s not like Brady is a dufas with no experience at his job, just sayin, 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: spreading the ball around is always tougher for defenses to deal with than them always knowing who our first option is…, The other way of phrasing this is that having a #1 WR is worse than not having a #1 WR, and that statement is obviously false. Yes you want to spread the ball around, but having a true go-to pass catcher that defenses have to think about and give extra attention to is obviously a massive benefit that we aren't likely to have this year. There have been multiple games over the last four years where force feeding the ball to Diggs was in fact the solution to getting the offense out of a rut, so in those cases the defenses knowing where the ball was going was actually better than spreading the ball around. This isn't Madden where Allen can scan the entire field at once and throw to the "most open" target. He will have to go through his progressions, and his targets along that progression will have to get open in order for the play to be successful, like any other offense. We can only "spread the ball around" if skill players are winning their matchups. In general though I don't know how to answer whether or not the pass catchers got "better" than last year because last year is split into two - before Diggs fell off a cliff and after. Like if the question is, will the Bills pass catchers be better than the group we had on the field against KC at the very end, that is a very different question from will the Bills pass catchers be better than what we had on the field from week 1 to week 6. I think the better more consistent question is "will the Bills pass catchers be championship caliber?" and on that I have very serious doubts. Edited June 23 by HappyDays 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 4 minutes ago, HappyDays said: The other way of phrasing this is that having a #1 WR is worse than not having a #1 WR, and that statement is obviously false. Yes you want to spread the ball around, but having a true go-to pass catcher that defenses have to think about and give extra attention to is obviously a massive benefit that we aren't likely to have this year. There have been multiple games over the last four years where force feeding the ball to Diggs was in fact the solution to getting the offense out of a rut, so in those cases the defenses knowing where the ball was going was actually better than spreading the ball around. This isn't Madden where Allen can scan the entire field at once and throw to the "most open" target. He will have to go through his progressions, and his targets along that progression will have to get open in order for the play to be successful, like any other offense. We can only "spread the ball around" if skill players are winning their matchups. In general though I don't know how to answer whether or not the pass catchers got "better" than last year because last year is split into two - before Diggs fell off a cliff and after. Like if the question is, will the Bills pass catchers be better than the group we had on the field against KC at the very end, that is a very different question from will the Bills pass catchers be better than what we had on the field from week 1 to week 6. I think the better more consistent question is "will the Bills pass catchers be championship caliber?" and on that I have very serious doubts. Don’t do madden or fantasy… and we don’t know if or who our number one will actually be, nor will any of our opponents initially, granted proof is in the pudding as the saying goes, but I think we are in an overall better position than last season, with the ever disappearing post season Diggs, and Gabe the ankle Davis with his annual injuries, and a bunch of other total jags in the WR room, but like I said we shall see…, fingers crossed 🤞 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 52 minutes ago, PBF81 said: What's interesting about all of this Brady love is that on one hand it's all his doing that we finished 6-1. On the other hand, despite the lack and diminishment in offensive performance metrics and general scoring apart from two games, he was still running Dorsey's offense for the most part. As to McD, come on now, if you don't see that then you're not looking, or rather, turning the other way. As to your last statement, agreed, that's precisely what I was referring to. If it doesn't change, then we're in trouble. But even with the change, we've heard McD & Co. say that they want to run more. Part of stripping away the BS is tearing down false narratives. Such as ... - Cook finished strong. No he didn't, he finished incredibly weak, bottom-dwelling in fact apart from a single game of his against a worn out team from their week prior and with us coming into the game as if it was our Super Bowl. - The offense was better under Brady. Simply false, particularly considering the trend over the last few games where we averaged 19.3 PPG and against defenses that were far from good, all below-average, two well below average. - Diggs lost a step. Also nonsense. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary. But he was used to run ridiculous patterns often, like bubble screen type stuff and crossing patterns at the LoS, of course his YPR is going to suffer. But any thinking person would clearly see that that was clearly related to the issues between him and McD/Brady. Otherwise, no player loses a step from one game to the next. That narrative is built for fools. This season will reveal more. There are others, but those are the bigger ones. And when we factor in the whole complimentary football thing, which is McD's thing, it shouldn't be that difficult to connect the dots. Not to mention, all of these things collectively not playing to Allen's core strengths. No matter how it's sliced, Allen's completion % dropped by 10 points and his rating dropped by over 10 points under Brady. People can spin it any way that they want to, but there's absolutely no good angle there. Until further notice, but we're not dealing with Bill Walsh or Don Coryell here, we're dealing with an OC in his first season, one that produced low-end production otherwise and who was fired mid-season in his second season in Carolina, and that Carolina association is also not insignificant. Also one that's having to fit whatever his plans are under McD's complimentary football umbrella. It bodes poorly. I don't agree that McD is shoving anything down Brady's neck. And I'm not: "not looking, or rather, turning the other way." That's simply a silly assertion that adds no value to your argument. But I do agree that the offense did not look good under Brady. The pass attack didn't get more productive - though it did get less self-destructive with fewer picks. Cook didn't run better. We all remember the Dallas game. But as I recall, Cook's YPC was lower under Brady versus Dorsey. And Diggs didn't suddenly get old/lose a step at midseason. He certainly got less productive under Brady and you have to consider the possibility that Brady did a poorer job scheming him open. I recall seeing someone charting receivers by yards of separation. Interestingly, both Davis and Diggs were in the lower half of the league. Lack of talent or poor scheme? Hard to know. But Shakir and Kincaid were in the upper half. Maybe this helps explain why we got rid of who we got rid of and kept who we kept. One thing people don't talk about enough is execution. Yes, an OC needs to scheme up a good game plan and then do a good job calling plays on game day. But he also needs to get the players to execute the plays at a high level. The Pats offense was good at this in their glory years. I'm no expert but when I rewatched some of the games, I didn't think we executed all that well under Dorsey. Receivers sometime ran lazy routes or were inconsistent when/where they made cuts. And clearly the communication between Davis and Allen seemed off at times. If the execution got any better under Brady, I didn't see it. I can't say I was happy when Brady was named the OC going forward. But I am cautiously encouraged that Allen seems excited about the changes Brady (not McD) is making to the offensive scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 30 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: IMO, it leans noticeably more toward the accurate side of the scale, it’s not like Brady is a dufas with no experience at his job, just sayin, 👍 It just seemed to me as the season wore on after his promotion, the offense wasn't as strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, klos63 said: If the Dolphins or the Jets had this group of WR, we'd laugh at them. Yup. Here’s hoping that the positive impact of the removal of distraction and problems within the WR corps outweighs the loss of talent. That’s a lot to hope for, but it’s all I got. I believe that the moves made are to build for 2025 when one or two true playmakers can be added. 2024 is isn’t lost, but a lot would have to come together to bring home a championship. It’s the right strategy, but it’s not like Beane can come out and admit it - until next offseason at least. Edited June 23 by BarleyNY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsgoodtime Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 I need to move to Buffalo, much better drugs evidently 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, NeverOutNick said: I don’t think we’re “better”. I think we’re deeper. This is how I see it: Last year This year Diggs Shakir Davis Coleman Shakir Samuel Harty Claypool Sherfield MVS Hollins Hamler Shakir is our #1 for this year and he’s earned that role even if he’s not built like a true #1. Will Coleman be the guy eventually? Maybe. He’s a big target that snatches the ball out of the air but isn’t a great separator just yet. Samuel is not special. He’s been the #2 or 3 option on every team he’s ever been on because he’s not a great route runner or even a deep threat (surprising for a guy who is so fast). He is a fun gadget player who is a way better version of what McKenzie was supposed to be. Claypool has the most upside of any player left and seems like he’s proving it in camp. I hope he finally puts it all together and isn’t just a nice preseason story. MVS is a deep threat who drops a lot of catchable balls. I don’t think he’s a lock to make the team but he’s a big deep threat so he’s safer than most. Hollins is the special teams dude captain that McDermott loves. On most teams he wouldn’t be a lock but he probably is with our safe conservative head coach. Hamler had all world potential. He is just never healthy. If he’s finally healthy I’d leapfrog him into the top 4 discussion because of his skill set to break the top off the d and ability to score a TD any time the ball is in his hands either punt return or catching the ball from Josh. it’s a much deeper WR room than last year which is good because of injuries but it’s not “better”. Diggs, even if last year was a down year, is a true #1 type WR who has mastered route running and outside of last year was always clutch in big moments. Hopefully someone steps up to be that guy this year but I was hoping we traded up for that guy in Odunze in the draft (not bitching because I’m sure it was discussed but too expensive) I am quietly optimistic about this years WR room but I am not expecting anyone to be a true #1 target at WR. If anything I think that guy will be Kincaid our best wr room is always the room we have in June when they are full of potential Edited June 23 by NoSaint 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 15 minutes ago, klos63 said: It just seemed to me as the season wore on after his promotion, the offense wasn't as strong. It might very well be because of our wide receivers room at the time, the ever disappearing late and post season Diggs, and Gabe the “ankle” Davis with his perennial injuries, our supposed two best options, and then outside of Shakir and Kincaid, with a sprinkling of Cook we were not in a position of strength, just a thought…, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 34 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: I don't agree that McD is shoving anything down Brady's neck. And I'm not: "not looking, or rather, turning the other way." That's simply a silly assertion that adds no value to your argument. But I do agree that the offense did not look good under Brady. The pass attack didn't get more productive - though it did get less self-destructive with fewer picks. Cook didn't run better. We all remember the Dallas game. But as I recall, Cook's YPC was lower under Brady versus Dorsey. And Diggs didn't suddenly get old/lose a step at midseason. He certainly got less productive under Brady and you have to consider the possibility that Brady did a poorer job scheming him open. I recall seeing someone charting receivers by yards of separation. Interestingly, both Davis and Diggs were in the lower half of the league. Lack of talent or poor scheme? Hard to know. But Shakir and Kincaid were in the upper half. Maybe this helps explain why we got rid of who we got rid of and kept who we kept. One thing people don't talk about enough is execution. Yes, an OC needs to scheme up a good game plan and then do a good job calling plays on game day. But he also needs to get the players to execute the plays at a high level. The Pats offense was good at this in their glory years. I'm no expert but when I rewatched some of the games, I didn't think we executed all that well under Dorsey. Receivers sometime ran lazy routes or were inconsistent when/where they made cuts. And clearly the communication between Davis and Allen seemed off at times. If the execution got any better under Brady, I didn't see it. I can't say I was happy when Brady was named the OC going forward. But I am cautiously encouraged that Allen seems excited about the changes Brady (not McD) is making to the offensive scheme. Kincaid and Shakir seemed to be able to execute Brady's game plan. On the other hand, Diggs and Davis had a lot of targets and didn't do much with those opportunities. That dragged down the overall stats. I can't make a rational determination of Brady's O with such a small number of games and the change being made mid-season. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 4 hours ago, hondo in seattle said: I've never heard Brady say anything to the effect that McD is breathing down his neck. So I'm not sure what your source is for this. I agree, though, that Brady needs to get better. I assume he was involved in some of the offseason WR moves and told McD and Beane what kind of receivers he wanted for his offense to work. Allen has said that Brady is installing new concepts and it's like learning a new offense. In other words, it doesn't sound like we'll see the same aerial attack this season that we saw at the end of last year. There will be new players running new plays. Without knowing more, it's hard to guess how it'll all work out. To be fair to Brady , he was running Dorsey's program by default. Some tweaks of course. I expect he will be implementing his Own vision of Offense this year and that gives me much hope I think the ball catchers , options and targets are deeper and cumulatively better on paper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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