How would Buffalo perform with Kirk Cousins?

[CincyBillsFan]

11 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

You are dramatically understating how cushy the AFCE has been recently

Side note- how many people saying we'd be bad w cousins also voted that we have a top 1-4 team this year😂😂

Kirk Cousins has a track record of losing big games.  IMO if he was the Bills QB they would have lost late season games to NE in 2021; Miami in 2022 and Miami in 2023 that they needed to win to win the AFC East.  That's 3 Division titles down the toilet.  Then in 2020 Cousins would have lost to the Colts in the wildcard round and instead of "13 seconds" in 2021 the Chiefs would have cruised to a comfortable win.

 

BTW you are dramatically understating how much better the Vikings offensive talent has been then the Bills over the last 5 seasons.

This thread is definitely a creative way to throw shade at Allen.  

 

 

Edited June 19 by CincyBillsFan

[Mikie2times]

7 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Kirk Cousins has a track record of losing big games.  IMO if he was the Bills QB they would have lost late season games to NE in 2021; Miami in 2022 and Miami in 2023 that they needed to win to win the AFC East.  That's 3 Division titles down the toilet.  Then in 2020 Cousins would have lost to the Colts in the wildcard round and instead of "13 seconds" in 2021 the Chiefs would have cruised to a comfortable win.

 

BTW you are dramatically understating how much better the Vikings offensive talent has been then the Bills over the last 5 seasons.

This thread is definitely a creative way to throw shade at Allen.  

 

 

More so Beane. If anything this thread is calling out how good Allen is. If he wasn't it would be easy to replace him.  

[LeGOATski]

12 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Minnesota had a 50-37 record with Cousins and made two playoff appearances. They made it to a divisional round game. They came into Buffalo and beat the Allen led Bills. With Allen we have basically ended up no further than Minnesota did with Cousins. So it’s not exactly a leaping conclusion to think if they swapped places we might produce a worse result.  

This paragraph discredits your whole argument. You think the Vikings have been just as good as the Bills.

9 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean that's kind of the issue in a nutshell isn't it

 

We have a Josh Allen talent and a Kirk Cousins ceiling

I think so. They've been disappointing at the end of every season.

[FireChans]

11 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

It's been very en vogue this off-season to act like Beane hasnt been supplying the team w enough talent...which clearly hasn't been the case as illustrated by our record in the regular season

Oh come on bro. We need Josh to put up 50+ TD’s by himself EVERY YEAR. He was the 4th highest rushing QB last year, 3rd in 2022 and 2021. We just watched him battering ram us from a .500 team to the 2 seed last season. 
 

Beane built a great team in 2020. we have been declining every year since. What you consider “in vogue,” I consider to be an accurate representation of our falling talent level.

 

The 2020 team would’ve cleaned the clocks of the 21, 22, 23 and now, most importantly, the 24 team. 
 

I think Cousins takes the 2020 Bills to the playoffs. I think maybe the 21 team too. The 2022 team misses. The 2023 team misses. The 2024 team goes 3-14. With Josh, the 24 team will win 10 games. 
 

That’s a feather in the cap of the GM who picked a QB worth 7+ wins on his own. A black eye for a GM who puts a crappy talent level around that QB.

Edited June 19 by FireChans

[Mikie2times]

I don't know why its so inconceivable to people to think we just aren't as talented as the higher level teams. 

 

This is PFF's breakdown of the Top 100

 

 

 

This is Prisco Top 100

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-top-100-players-of-2024-patrick-mahomes-reigns-again-myles-garrett-top-defender-in-priscos-rankings/

 

Both have Josh Allen as the only Top 100 player. You can argue about Johnson, Oliver, Milano but it's an argument. While these "sources" aren't gospel they aren't completely inaccurate either.

 

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Oh come on bro. We need Josh to put up 50+ TD’s by himself EVERY YEAR. He was the 4th highest rushing QB last year, 3rd in 2022 and 2021. We just watched him battering ram us from a .500 team to the 2 seed last season. 
 

Beane built a great team in 2020. we have been declining every year since. What you consider “in vogue,” I consider to be an accurate representation of our falling talent level.

 

The 2020 team would’ve cleaned the clocks of the 21, 22, 23 and now, most importantly, the 24 team. 
 

I think Cousins takes the 2020 Bills to the playoffs. I think maybe the 21 team too. The 2022 team misses. The 2023 team misses. The 2024 team goes 3-14. With Josh, the 24 team will win 10 games. 
 

That’s a feather in the cap of the GM who picked a QB worth 7+ wins on his own. A black eye for a GM who puts a crappy talent level around that QB.

I addressed the lack of offensive talent earlier

 

The point is- you should be able to win more games without having to put up 50TDs/year. I don't think the difference in QB play would have a dramatic effect on our fortunes, particularly in the playoffs. Right now Allen gives you Super Bowl level production that translates to divisional round exits. Cousins gives you divisional round play already.

[Paup 1995MVP]

16 hours ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

I get that, but I still don't have the amount of confidence about Cousins as a few others might have. That being said, I think of Cousins as average and even with advantage of being in a bad division I don't feel confident he could win multiple division titles. But anyways, that's just me....

Cousins is average?  What guy have you been watching the past decade?  Kirk Cousins has game.  He isn't Josh Allen Joe Burrow Patrick Mahomes or Aaron Rodgers in his prime.  But he has been a good above average very solid QB his entire career.

 

Not sure why you would consider him average.  He can make all the throws.  And is a good leader.  I put Cousins on the level of Lamar Hurts Dak Prescott and Jared Goff.  And better then Justin Herbert.   

[mjohns85]

Betting our oline would grade near the bottom of the league. Josh avoids so many sacks and keeps the chains moving with his scrambling ability.  Call me a homer, but I don’t think you could swap Josh for any other qb in the league and the Bills finish with a +.500 record.

[Chicken Boo]

Hard to say, but I dont think they'd be better.  The philosophy on offense would change.  The coaches wouldn't be leaning on Cousins like they do with Allen currently.

 

They'd still be a playoff caliber team though.  

18 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ll never forget attending the Bills game at Minnesota a few years ago. The Bills blew the Vikings away early….and there was Kirk Cousins still throwing four yard patterns to the bitter end. The Vikings fans sitting all around us had their collective heads buried in their hands. 

 

What about the game in November of 2022, where Cousins led the Vikings to a victory in OT?

 

He had no problem finding a blanketed Justin Jefferson on 4th and 18.

Edited June 19 by Chicken Boo

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

I addressed the lack of offensive talent earlier

 

The point is- you should be able to win more games without having to put up 50TDs/year. I don't think the difference in QB play would have a dramatic effect on our fortunes, particularly in the playoffs. Right now Allen gives you Super Bowl level production that translates to divisional round exits. Cousins gives you divisional round play already.

Josh Allen putting up 50+ TD’s to kick around the garbage teams in our division and the garbage QBs that float around the NFL and make up 2/3rds of your schedule is what ends up happening.

 

the belt tightens in the playoffs, and suddenly your SB level play QB can’t make up that difference as easily.

 

The Bills have the luxury of having the best QB on the field, by a lot, in almost every game they play in the regular season. That translates to a lot of regular season wins. With Cousins, that delta in talent becomes a lot smaller.

 

compensating for the IOL play in 2022 is just something we take for granted. Josh, Mahomes and Lamar are probably the only QB’s in the league that could have had any success behind that horrific group.

 

I think Josh raises our teams floor much much much more than you think he does.

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Would the Bills be a much different team than the Vikings the last few years if we swapped QB's? 

 

I started thinking the other day "what if Josh got hurt". We would be done I thought. I considered if that meant anything. That from my perspective we had no ability to support the loss of Allen when perhaps other teams sort of could. Bengals, Vikings, stayed in the playoff radar all year last season. Flacco took the Browns to the playoffs. Others stayed in the mix more so than I would expect Buffalo to. 

 

I decided to move the goal posts. What if it wasn't Josh, what if it was, I don't know, Kirk Cousins?  Then what happens....

 

So not a back up but what the NFL feels is an above average QB.  So would Buffalo be as good as Minnesota has been with Kirk Cousins as a starting QB?  Again, I don't think they would. I think we could get to a wild card game but our ceiling would be no higher than the Vikings and in my opinion it would actually be lower. 

 

Curious what peoples thoughts are on this and if that says anything to them about the strength/development of our roster?

  

 

Cousins is good.

 

I think we'd make the playoffs and bomb out probably first round unless we got a real dog as a wildcard opponent.

 

Nearly always, the team that wins the SB is considered one of the top 5 to 6 teams. The current Bills are always in that group, the group with a real chance. IMO with Cousins we'd be around 8th to 12th best, with a chance that was more theoretical than actual.

 

We consistently have a very good roster. QBs aside, better than Minny's But generally the top five to six teams have excellent QBs, or a QB who's cheap but playing very well, ala the Eagles and Niners, and an excellent roster.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

I addressed the lack of offensive talent earlier

 

The point is- you should be able to win more games without having to put up 50TDs/year. I don't think the difference in QB play would have a dramatic effect on our fortunes, particularly in the playoffs. Right now Allen gives you Super Bowl level production that translates to divisional round exits. Cousins gives you divisional round play already.

 

 

We don't need Allen to put up 50+ TDs every year. The idea's ridiculous, as he's never done it. His high is 45.

 

Allen's production hasn't translated to any particular level of exit. That would be the performance of the whole team that translated to that. Same as it works for every team. W-L is a team stat. The QB is a part of the team. A very important part, but a part.

 

And an awful lot of where you go out of the playoffs is who you play in what round. It's not a mistake that it's KC we lost to three times. They've been the best team in the game.

 

It wouldn't have taken KC to knock us out with Cousins behind center.

[corta765]

20 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They’d be good. Not sure how good. But the offense with Diggs and Cousins wouldn’t be terrible. People forget how great the defense has been since 2019.
 

Bills regular season points allowed rankings. 

 

2019 - 2nd

2020 - 16th

2021 - 1st

2022 - 2nd

2023 - 4th

I think the Bills win at least 2 division titles and maybe 3 with Cousins.

 

 

Tend to agree. Probably something like thing:

 

2019: WC

2020: Division

2021: WC NE wins division over us. People forget the final NE regular season game Josh went absolutely nuts and was the difference as NE was not bad in that

2022: Division

2023: WC MIA wins over us. Joshs running ability was big in the win streak although Cousins probably doesn't throwaway week 1 vs NY.

 

They probably win a playoff round once maybe twice but I think they are still held back in the end as Cousins is really good not great.

[SoonerBillsFan]

20 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Would the Bills be a much different team than the Vikings the last few years if we swapped QB's? 

 

I started thinking the other day "what if Josh got hurt". We would be done I thought. I considered if that meant anything. That from my perspective we had no ability to support the loss of Allen when perhaps other teams sort of could. Bengals, Vikings, stayed in the playoff radar all year last season. Flacco took the Browns to the playoffs. Others stayed in the mix more so than I would expect Buffalo to. 

 

I decided to move the goal posts. What if it wasn't Josh, what if it was, I don't know, Kirk Cousins?  Then what happens....

 

So not a back up but what the NFL feels is an above average QB.  So would Buffalo be as good as Minnesota has been with Kirk Cousins as a starting QB?  Again, I don't think they would. I think we could get to a wild card game but our ceiling would be no higher than the Vikings and in my opinion it would actually be lower. 

 

Curious what peoples thoughts are on this and if that says anything to them about the strength/development of our roster?

I just threw up in my mouth a little at the thought of that.

[GoBills808]

50 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Josh Allen putting up 50+ TD’s to kick around the garbage teams in our division and the garbage QBs that float around the NFL and make up 2/3rds of your schedule is what ends up happening.

 

the belt tightens in the playoffs, and suddenly your SB level play QB can’t make up that difference as easily.

 

The Bills have the luxury of having the best QB on the field, by a lot, in almost every game they play in the regular season. That translates to a lot of regular season wins. With Cousins, that delta in talent becomes a lot smaller.

 

compensating for the IOL play in 2022 is just something we take for granted. Josh, Mahomes and Lamar are probably the only QB’s in the league that could have had any success behind that horrific group.

 

I think Josh raises our teams floor much much much more than you think he does.

So we agree, then, that QB and offense by extension has produced at a SB level in the regular season and postseason generally speaking

 

The defense meanwhile has produced at a SB level in the regular season and a bottom of the league level in the playoffs.

 

So forgive me for believing the delta between what we might reasonably expect the offense to produce having Allen v Cousins is insignificant compared to what we might expect our postseason experiences to diverge if we got even NFL average play out of the defense 

 

Which you seem to want to lay at Beane's feet for a lack of talent...it's just refusing to see the problem for what it is imo. Despite what @CincyBillsFanreads into this it's not a knock on Allen at all to suggest our playoff results wouldn't be dramatically different w Cousins. We'd still end up losing, just by more points

[Bills!Win!]

May/June are the toughest off season months. This is brutal 

[GoBills808]

53 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

We don't need Allen to put up 50+ TDs every year. The idea's ridiculous, as he's never done it.

wrong

 

he's done it three out of the four last seasons

[DCofNC]

This would be a much more interesting season coming up as we would be on year two with a new coach, have taken a new QB this draft and we’d be hoping to make it out of the WC round for the first time in 20 years.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

So we agree, then, that QB and offense by extension has produced at a SB level in the regular season and postseason generally speaking

 

The defense meanwhile has produced at a SB level in the regular season and a bottom of the league level in the playoffs.

 

So forgive me for believing the delta between what we might reasonably expect the offense to produce having Allen v Cousins is insignificant compared to what we might expect our postseason experiences to diverge if we got even NFL average play out of the defense 

 

Which you seem to want to lay at Beane's feet for a lack of talent...it's just refusing to see the problem for what it is imo. Despite what @CincyBillsFanreads into this it's not a knock on Allen at all to suggest our playoff results wouldn't be dramatically different w Cousins. We'd still end up losing, just by more points

Meh, the defense has not produced at a SB level in the regular season.

 

I’m not knocking Allen. I’m saying that I think he carries the offense and the team in the regular season and the postseason. Cousins could not do either. Ergo, we would be a much worse team with Cousins.

 

Theres no way to prove either of us right. Suffice it to say that I think it’s possible this coaching staff and roster in 2024 could squeak out a 9-7 run with Cousins potentially and a WC exit. That’s their ceiling. Their floor would be around 6 wins. In 2020, yeah maybe they win 11 games and get to the divisional round. 
 

And that’s with a pretty good QB in the NFL. If this team lost Allen for any amount of time in 2024, going just under .500 would be a success. I would expect them to be winless during that stretch. I think this roster actually sucks now. Luckily, we have Josh which means he’s gonna drag us to 10 wins, but this roster is not SB caliber or even close. I can list a bunch of teams I’d rather surround Allen with than the 2024 Bills. We have exactly one star in Matt Milano who plays arguably the least important defensive position lol.

 

also, I do find it ironic that you spent so much time during the 2023 regular season blaming the defense for their mishaps resulting in a 6-6 start and a season on life support, but have now changed your tune that they were “SB caliber” lmao.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Meh, the defense has not produced at a SB level in the regular season.

 

I’m not knocking Allen. I’m saying that I think he carries the offense and the team in the regular season and the postseason. Cousins could not do either. Ergo, we would be a much worse team with Cousins.

 

Theres no way to prove either of us right. Suffice it to say that I think it’s possible this coaching staff and roster in 2024 could squeak out a 9-7 run with Cousins potentially and a WC exit. That’s their ceiling. Their floor would be around 6 wins. In 2020, yeah maybe they win 11 games and get to the divisional round. 
 

And that’s with a pretty good QB in the NFL. If this team lost Allen for any amount of time in 2024, going just under .500 would be a success. I would expect them to be winless during that stretch. I think this roster actually sucks now. Luckily, we have Josh which means he’s gonna drag us to 10 wins, but this roster is not SB caliber or even close. I can list a bunch of teams I’d rather surround Allen with than the 2024 Bills. We have exactly one star in Matt Milano who plays arguably the least important defensive position lol.

 

also, I do find it ironic that you spent so much time during the 2023 regular season blaming the defense for their mishaps resulting in a 6-6 start and a season on life support, but have now changed your tune that they were “SB caliber” lmao.

I'm well aware that was what I said, if you think that's inconsistent enough to discredit the argument then so be it. Defense can play poorly for stretches of a particular season and still be SB quality overall in my eyes.

 

As far as the 2024 team goes yes I think it's a weak roster. But the OP was talking about the course of several seasons if im not mistaken. There is no need to pretend we haven't had enough talent to perform at championship level on at least one side of the ball the last 4years