More WNY Love - Rochester & Buffalo ranked in top 6 as most affordable cities in the world

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Fact: there was no human settlement +/- 30 degrees of the equator until 1963.  It was simply too hot.

It's science 

[ExiledInIllinois]

14 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Fact: there was no human settlement +/- 30 degrees of the equator until 1963.  It was simply too hot.

FACT: Wrong. There was always a few idiots.  But nobody cared if they died of malaria induced meningitis. Thank you Willis Carrier for changing all that!

[Jauronimo]

On 6/16/2024 at 6:39 PM, Big Turk said:

 

This is not reality anymore. The job market has been improving steadily.

 

I live here and make well into 6 figures.

 

Your old beliefs that won't die from 30 years ago do not match up with any statistics that have shown what is actually happening here over the past several years.

 

In fact, one of the reasons that Zillow ranked Buffalo as the hottest housing market in the entire US in 2024 was BECAUSE of the job market and it's considerable improving conditions.

 

If people aren't making enough money it's likely because they are working dead end careers with no chance for advancement or careers not in demand. That's a choice.

There are some good jobs in Buffalo and Rochester.  There are even great jobs.  But there's an order of magnitude more opportunity in pretty much any major American city.  This isn't a criticism of Buffalo.

 

Depending on which source you find, my cost of living in Houston might even be lower than Buffalo.

 

 

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

There are some good jobs in Buffalo and Rochester.  There are even great jobs.  But there's an order of magnitude more opportunity in pretty much any major American city.  This isn't a criticism of Buffalo.

 

Depending on which source you find, my cost of living in Houston might even be lower than Buffalo.

 

 

 

Buffalo has been replacing low paying blue collar jobs with higher paying IT jobs for a while now. Numerous companies have moved their tech hubs to Buffalo and even more are coming.

 

Why? Because Buffalo and the WNY region has an abundance of high quality software engineers that the rest of the country is starting to figure out that largely hasn't been tapped yet. These companies can pay significantly more than what most people make here but significantly less than what they would pay someone in say Seattle or San Fran or Houston for example. It's a win-win for both sides.

 

Fun fact...the person who invented React, a very popular front end JavaScript framework/library used by millions that was created by Facebook(now Meta) is from Orchard Park.

 

So even if people want to say the job market is stagnant, which it really isn't, the overall pay for those same number of jobs is going up and continues to rise.

 

And the only sources I found that showed the cost of living was higher in Buffalo were places like Forbes that had seemingly nonsensical data showing that the average house price in Buffalo was 483K(it's more like 275K) and that a gallon of milk here costs $4.70(it's more like $2.69).

 

All the other sites showed Houston is somewhere between 8-15% more expensive which only makes sense considering the housing payments alone will likely be close to double there. And like everywhere down south the cost of groceries there about forces you to have to have a second job just to feed your family every month. Everytime I go visit relatives in South Carolina I about cry when I walk into the stores to get food for the week.

 

Edited June 18 by Big Turk

[Big Turk]

5 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Fact: there was no human settlement +/- 30 degrees of the equator until 1963.  It was simply too hot.

 

Not true...Quito, Ecuador is only 16 miles from the equator but because of it's location in the mountains it stays relatively mild all year with high temps in the upper 60s and lows in the upper 40s pretty much year round. It was founded in 1534 by the Spanish Conquistadores.

 

Also in Ecuador is the city of Guayaquil which is 152 miles from the equator and the main port city of almost 3 million people. It was founded in 1542 as a port city and almost immediately began booming in population and a center of trade. Temps there are warmer but not unbearable with year round highs in the mid to upper 80s and lows in high 60s to low 70s.

 

Same with Bogota, Columbia which is about 300 miles from the equator but again due to it's locations in the mountains the temps are almost the same as Quito year round. It was made the capital of Columbia in 1821.

 

 

Edited June 18 by Big Turk

[sherpa]

43 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Not true...Quito, Ecuador is only 16 miles from the equator but because of it's location in the mountains it stays relatively mild all year with high temps in the upper 60s and lows in the upper 40s pretty much year round. It was founded in 1534 by the Spanish Conquistadores.

 

Ya. It's elevation is 9600' MSL.

Also very cheap cost of living there.

I used to always pick up a couple dozen roses at $1/dozen.

Cargo compartments were always full of flowers for distribution to US florists. 

 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Ya. It's elevation is 9600' MSL.

Also very cheap cost of living there.

I used to always pick up a couple dozen roses at $1/dozen.

Cargo compartments were always full of flowers for distribution to US florists. 

 

 

Yeah, it's one of the highest ranking places for expats to retire due to it's cheap cost of living, relative low crime rates and safety profile, year round mild climate and good medical care.

Edited June 18 by Big Turk

[sherpa]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yeah, it's one of the highest ranking places for expats to retire due to it's cheap cost of living, relative low crime rates and safety profile, year round mild climate and good medical care.

 

The valley it's in is quite narrow, so quite tricky to get into and out of.

Quito, LaPaz and Tegucigalpa Honduras required special qual to fly into, and only the 757..

Great fun, except Tegucigalpa, which I never liked going into.

[Big Turk]

11 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

The valley it's in is quite narrow, so quite tricky to get into and out of.

Quito, LaPaz and Tegucigalpa Honduras required special qual to fly into, and only the 757..

Great fun, except Tegucigalpa, which I never liked going into.

 

Never been there but my soccer coach growing up was from Quito and said it was a place of great beauty and that I should go there some day to see it.

[Jauronimo]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Not true...Quito, Ecuador is only 16 miles from the equator but because of it's location in the mountains it stays relatively mild all year with high temps in the upper 60s and lows in the upper 40s pretty much year round. It was founded in 1534 by the Spanish Conquistadores.

 

Also in Ecuador is the city of Guayaquil which is 152 miles from the equator and the main port city of almost 3 million people. It was founded in 1542 as a port city and almost immediately began booming in population and a center of trade. Temps there are warmer but not unbearable with year round highs in the mid to upper 80s and lows in high 60s to low 70s.

 

Same with Bogota, Columbia which is about 300 miles from the equator but again due to it's locations in the mountains the temps are almost the same as Quito year round. It was made the capital of Columbia in 1821.

 

 

Not falling for that nonsense.  Next you'll try to tell me that the middle east, India, and southern china, all areas with sweltering heat, have been continuously inhabited since the dawn of time.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

That run down bodega with out of date food and homeless folk sleeping in the doorway is also “affordable” 

On 6/16/2024 at 7:39 PM, Big Turk said:

 

This is not reality anymore. The job market has been improving steadily.

 

I live here and make well into 6 figures.

 

Your old beliefs that won't die from 30 years ago do not match up with any statistics that have shown what is actually happening here over the past several years.

 

In fact, one of the reasons that Zillow ranked Buffalo as the hottest housing market in the entire US in 2024 was BECAUSE of the job market and it's considerable improving conditions.

 

If people aren't making enough money it's likely because they are working dead end careers with no chance for advancement or careers not in demand. That's a choice.

Well if you make well into six figures, then that means the vast majority residents are doing as well.  Obviously you don’t work in the statistics field. 

[SoTier]

 

On 6/17/2024 at 2:36 AM, PetermansRedemption said:

I’m not sure this holds anymore. Back 15 years ago when you could get a house in Tonawanda for 87k, sure. Now that same house is 250k and has the property taxes to match. If you don’t care where you live, then I’m sure Buffalo has affordable spots. But go into any decent neighborhood anymore and it isn’t very affordable. Once you factor in property taxes, you can find the same house elsewhere. Taking simple home price of XXX dollars you come out with a far different picture. But not everyone has massive property tax exemptions and pays in cash. 

 

Actually, a house that goes for $200k in the Buffalo metro (city and suburbs) likely goes for $300+k in most parts of the country -- and significantly more than that in "popular" metros.   Frequently, HOA fees pay for infrastructure and services that your taxes pay for in WNY.   In the parts of the country that are prone to repeated significant natural disasters -- wild fires, hurricanes, flooding -- have seen homeowners' insurance rates explode.  So, the actual cost of mortgage, insurance, taxes, and HOA in many areas isn't all that much less than in WNY.   That would include popular areas for expats like Florida and the Carolinas.

 

On 6/17/2024 at 12:52 PM, teef said:

i've always thought the appeal to rochester were the suburbs.  nice homes, clean, great schools, etc.  for all those saying crime...it's in areas of the city you typically would never go.  we go to parts of downtown for restaurants and shows, but i've never felt unsafe in those areas at all.  

 

That's always been the nature of cities.  There are safe neighborhoods and business areas and there are those that are much less safe in every city big and small.  Even upscale gated communities may not be nearly as safe as residents or would-be residents believe they are, especially homegrown vandalism.

 

On 6/17/2024 at 3:44 PM, boater said:

 

WNY is moribund career wise. The number of unemployed is rising (May 2024 DOL statistics). The rosy job growth predicted by Zillow is not happening. That you make 6-figures could be a source of cognitive bias.

 

Just because WNY is better than the past, it doesn't mean it competes with the rest of the nation. The many Expats on this board are examples of people where moving to WNY would be a step down.

 

 

 

If you are determined to be the biggest fish in an ocean career-wise, then yeah, Buffalo isn't going to compete with those huge metros.   If you want to make a good living and have a decent quality of life, then WNY is certainly competitive.   I'm a former expat who left the area almost 40 years ago for my career but took a pay cut to come home because the I got tired of the career treadmill -- and I wanted a better work environment (less office politics and more real career growth).    BTW, if I had chosen to work in/near Buffalo (I had 3 job offers)  rather than in Jamestown, I wouldn't have had to take a pay cut at all.  I picked small town life and outdoor access over money.

 

[boater]

55 minutes ago, SoTier said:

....

If you are determined to be the biggest fish in an ocean career-wise, then yeah, Buffalo isn't going to compete with those huge metros.   If you want to make a good living and have a decent quality of life, then WNY is certainly competitive.   I'm a former expat who left the area almost 40 years ago for my career but took a pay cut to come home because the I got tired of the career treadmill -- and I wanted a better work environment (less office politics and more real career growth).    BTW, if I had chosen to work in/near Buffalo (I had 3 job offers)  rather than in Jamestown, I wouldn't have had to take a pay cut at all.  I picked small town life and outdoor access over money.

 

There is something to be said for leaving WNY in your prime earning years and then returning when you are established in life.

 

I am better off today having done that, rather than staying in WNY my whole career.

[PetermansRedemption]

5 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Actually, a house that goes for $200k in the Buffalo metro (city and suburbs) likely goes for $300+k in most parts of the country -- and significantly more than that in "popular" metros.   Frequently, HOA fees pay for infrastructure and services that your taxes pay for in WNY.   In the parts of the country that are prone to repeated significant natural disasters -- wild fires, hurricanes, flooding -- have seen homeowners' insurance rates explode.  So, the actual cost of mortgage, insurance, taxes, and HOA in many areas isn't all that much less than in WNY.   That would include popular areas for expats like Florida and the Carolinas.

 

 

That's always been the nature of cities.  There are safe neighborhoods and business areas and there are those that are much less safe in every city big and small.  Even upscale gated communities may not be nearly as safe as residents or would-be residents believe they are, especially homegrown vandalism.

 

 

If you are determined to be the biggest fish in an ocean career-wise, then yeah, Buffalo isn't going to compete with those huge metros.   If you want to make a good living and have a decent quality of life, then WNY is certainly competitive.   I'm a former expat who left the area almost 40 years ago for my career but took a pay cut to come home because the I got tired of the career treadmill -- and I wanted a better work environment (less office politics and more real career growth).    BTW, if I had chosen to work in/near Buffalo (I had 3 job offers)  rather than in Jamestown, I wouldn't have had to take a pay cut at all.  I picked small town life and outdoor access over money.

 

Do 200k houses even exist anymore in the suburbs though? I see houses on the east side off Bailey/Kensington going for 150k. 

[SoTier]

41 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Do 200k houses even exist anymore in the suburbs though? I see houses on the east side off Bailey/Kensington going for 150k. 

 

Yes ...

148 Colonial Ave, Tonawanda   $149,900

3928 Caitlin Terrace, Hamburg   $189,900

1120 Highland Ave, Tonawanda  $189,900

87 Moore Ave, Tonawanda   $194,900

109 Woodcrest, West Seneca  $134,900

175 N End Ave, Tonawanda  $175,000

74 Frontier Drive, Hamburg  $185,000

 

These are from Realtor.com, which are bonafide listings.  I don't know if these houses are priced to encourage bidding wars, but they do exist in Buffalo suburbs.   My guess is that they are either really small or are fixers.  The point of my post was that house prices in WNY are bargains compared to much of the country.    In some metros these same houses would likely be selling for twice the price -- or more.

 

There are houses selling for $150+k in the Grant-Amherst neighborhood where my maternal grandparents and aunts and uncles lived for decades.   Most of the housing there is working class "doubles" built between 1900 and WW I with no redeeming architectural value except that they're pretty sturdy if they've been decently cared for.   As prices in Elmwood Village, North Buffalo, and Delaware District have skyrocketed in the last two decades, more middle income families have moved into Grant-Amherst, changing a tired old neighborhood sinking into a slum into a more of a modest family neighborhood like it was 50 years ago.   That's happening all over the city in small pockets, including Bailey-Kensington as well as varioius parts of the West Side like Grant Ferry and Connecticut Street.

[Augie]

On 6/18/2024 at 2:10 AM, GoBills808 said:

It's science 

 

Oh good! It always gets spicy when it turns to science!  😂 

[boater]

18 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Do 200k houses even exist anymore in the suburbs though? I see houses on the east side off Bailey/Kensington going for 150k. 

House three doors down in my nice neighborhood is going for 185K. It's not a peach of a property, but for some people it's an upgrade in life.

 

I've been watching and I'm concerned because a lot of the people looking at it have an investor vibe to them. That means renters and typically renters aren't optimal neighbors. They don't invest in the house (understandably) and neither does the landlord. The few renters on the street aren't quick with shoveling the snow or mowing the lawn.

[Big Turk]

And the love just keeps coming...

 

Money.com released a list of the 50 best places to live in the US and guess who is on it?

 

https://money.com/best-places-to-live/buffalo-new-york/

[Not at the table Karlos]

On 6/20/2024 at 4:02 PM, SoTier said:

 

Yes ...

148 Colonial Ave, Tonawanda   $149,900

3928 Caitlin Terrace, Hamburg   $189,900

1120 Highland Ave, Tonawanda  $189,900

87 Moore Ave, Tonawanda   $194,900

109 Woodcrest, West Seneca  $134,900

175 N End Ave, Tonawanda  $175,000

74 Frontier Drive, Hamburg  $185,000

 

These are from Realtor.com, which are bonafide listings.  I don't know if these houses are priced to encourage bidding wars, but they do exist in Buffalo suburbs.   My guess is that they are either really small or are fixers.  The point of my post was that house prices in WNY are bargains compared to much of the country.    In some metros these same houses would likely be selling for twice the price -- or more.

 

There are houses selling for $150+k in the Grant-Amherst neighborhood where my maternal grandparents and aunts and uncles lived for decades.   Most of the housing there is working class "doubles" built between 1900 and WW I with no redeeming architectural value except that they're pretty sturdy if they've been decently cared for.   As prices in Elmwood Village, North Buffalo, and Delaware District have skyrocketed in the last two decades, more middle income families have moved into Grant-Amherst, changing a tired old neighborhood sinking into a slum into a more of a modest family neighborhood like it was 50 years ago.   That's happening all over the city in small pockets, including Bailey-Kensington as well as varioius parts of the West Side like Grant Ferry and Connecticut Street.

Owned two houses in that neighborhood. Was shot at twice. One 10 years ago and again last year. The bullet holes are still in between the windows of one of them. 
 

TBH I feel those houses you listed are expensive for how small they are.

Edited September 22 by Not at the table Karlos

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

On 6/17/2024 at 3:19 AM, Draconator said:

Rochester, New York. Come for the Art Museum, stay for the crime. 

Worth the trip for a garbage plate