GunnerBill Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 26 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: All this emphasis on special teams and no reliable kicker or punter.... Beane's 2020 draft starting to look like absolute garbage now... Epenesa - terrible, dumb idea to extend him Moss - gone Davis - one great game and some decent seasons - gone Fromm - terrible Hodgins - injured, hype, and no good Jackson - probably going to be the best of the bunch but just an average CB. Not good enough to keep them from drafting Elam. Bass - for a moment he looked as good as the Davis pick. Now he may be falling apart too It wasn't a great draft. I am higher than AJE than you - I think he is a decent situational pass rusher and the two years he has played properly after they drafted him then totally ripped his game apart and rebuilt him he HAS been productive in that role. But I doubt his ability to be an every down player and when you have invested a 2nd round pick and two years of a complete rebuild into a player they have to be more than situational IMO. Moss was a meh pick, I said at time I could live with it but wanted more speed. Turns out that was a fair summation of what he has been as an NFL player. Davis - that WAS an excellent 4th round pick. To get a solid starting #2 outside receiver in round 4 is good value. Obviously they haven't paid him, but when you are paying a franchise QB that has to be your model at #2 receiver: draft, get on the field early, hopefully get good production, let them walk and take the comp pick. Fromm - yea, never like low ceiling Quarterbacks. Even as backups. Hodgins - I was a sceptic before that draft. He was a non-separator in college and the history of non-separators in college finding the magic forumla in the NFL is not great. Jackson - Excellent value 7th rounder. Low end starter / high end backup outside corner. Bass - good start but has lost his way. I think absolute garbage is a slight stretch, they got good value from Gabe and Dane for four years on day 3 contracts. You can't keep all your guys, when you get that production from day 3 players you have to recognise that as a good job regardless of whether you keep them beyond that point. But it also wasn't a good draft. No corner stone players from it in contrast to 2017, 2018 and 2019 which produced (combined) Dawkins, White, Milano, Allen, Johnson, Oliver and Knox who have all been cornerstone players who earned second contracts. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 19 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: You’re forgetting the first round pick, who turned out to be a multi-time all pro. That's a fair point but it's also not as equal as a first round pick. First round pick is cost control for 5 years, where bills had to pay top of market for Diggs which of course limits opportunities to get other free agents etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 41 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: That's a fair point but it's also not as equal as a first round pick. First round pick is cost control for 5 years, where bills had to pay top of market for Diggs which of course limits opportunities to get other free agents etc. Yet he performed like the all pro that he was while here. He helped take the Bills' passing offense to new heights, and there was certainly no guarantee a rookie under control would have ever approached that level of production. I don't know why Bills fans have a hard time conceiving of Diggs as a highly successful first round draft pick, because that's how he performed. As for the money, you pay for high-end talent in the NFL, and that's what he was. He averaged 111 catches for 1,343 yards and 9+ TDs per season while here. It's the best four-year stretch for a receiver in Bills history. Edited August 22 by dave mcbride 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshynman Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 13 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Yet he performed like the all pro that he was while here. He helped take the Bills' passing offense to new heights, and there was certainly no guarantee a rookie under control would have ever approached that level of production. I don't know why Bills fans have a hard time conceiving of Diggs as a highly successful first round draft pick, because that's how he performed. As for the money, you pay for high-end talent in the NFL, and that's what he was. He averaged 111 catches for 1,343 yards and 9+ TDs per season while here. It's the best four-year stretch for a receiver in Bills history. Technically true, and f*ck Diggs. His attitude sucked after year 1. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, dave mcbride said: You’re forgetting the first round pick, who turned out to be a multi-time all pro. I did not forget. Still doesn't change the drafted players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbeard Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 14 minutes ago, sunshynman said: Technically true, and f*ck Diggs. His attitude sucked after year 1. How can you even say that? No one really knows what happened. To make this claim is ridiculous. Has one coach or player come out with this? Any players on the Vikings? No. all you know is what the media thinks. It’s basically gossip, whether factual or not. Edited August 22 by Blackbeard 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: It wasn't a great draft. I am higher than AJE than you - I think he is a decent situational pass rusher and the two years he has played properly after they drafted him then totally ripped his game apart and rebuilt him he HAS been productive in that role. But I doubt his ability to be an every down player and when you have invested a 2nd round pick and two years of a complete rebuild into a player they have to be more than situational IMO. Moss was a meh pick, I said at time I could live with it but wanted more speed. Turns out that was a fair summation of what he has been as an NFL player. Davis - that WAS an excellent 4th round pick. To get a solid starting #2 outside receiver in round 4 is good value. Obviously they haven't paid him, but when you are paying a franchise QB that has to be your model at #2 receiver: draft, get on the field early, hopefully get good production, let them walk and take the comp pick. Fromm - yea, never like low ceiling Quarterbacks. Even as backups. Hodgins - I was a sceptic before that draft. He was a non-separator in college and the history of non-separators in college finding the magic forumla in the NFL is not great. Jackson - Excellent value 7th rounder. Low end starter / high end backup outside corner. Bass - good start but has lost his way. I think absolute garbage is a slight stretch, they got good value from Gabe and Dane for four years on day 3 contracts. You can't keep all your guys, when you get that production from day 3 players you have to recognise that as a good job regardless of whether you keep them beyond that point. But it also wasn't a good draft. No corner stone players from it in contrast to 2017, 2018 and 2019 which produced (combined) Dawkins, White, Milano, Allen, Johnson, Oliver and Knox who have all been cornerstone players who earned second contracts. Good assessment. I'm guilty of hyperbole on this one. We agree on everything except Epenesa. For a second round pick he is closer to a bust and isn't even a regular contributor. If Miller had been healthy he would have been a healthy scratch at times last year. He doesn't just disappear for a game, he disappears for several weeks in a row every season. Has he made a single play in any playoff game? If he has please remind me, but I can't think of any. If Davis was more consistent that would have been a homerun pick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, dave mcbride said: Yet he performed like the all pro that he was while here. He helped take the Bills' passing offense to new heights, and there was certainly no guarantee a rookie under control would have ever approached that level of production. I don't know why Bills fans have a hard time conceiving of Diggs as a highly successful first round draft pick, because that's how he performed. As for the money, you pay for high-end talent in the NFL, and that's what he was. He averaged 111 catches for 1,343 yards and 9+ TDs per season while here. It's the best four-year stretch for a receiver in Bills history. For sure I don't deny his production it was great for 3.5 years. But there's a reason you can't trade 1st round picks every year for high priced guys. You would be in salary cap hell very quickly Edited August 22 by BillsFan130 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 35 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: Good assessment. I'm guilty of hyperbole on this one. We agree on everything except Epenesa. For a second round pick he is closer to a bust and isn't even a regular contributor. If Miller had been healthy he would have been a healthy scratch at times last year. He doesn't just disappear for a game, he disappears for several weeks in a row every season. Has he made a single play in any playoff game? If he has please remind me, but I can't think of any. If Davis was more consistent that would have been a homerun pick. Such is the lot of a situational pass rusher. They are by nature streaky. He has only hit 50% of field time in one post-season game (his most recent one where he was bank on 50). I agree he hasn't justified second round pick status. You need more than two seasons of rotational player value to justify that. And I was surprised the Bills extended him. He has only started four games in four seasons as a Bill. If they are relying on him to suddenly be an every down player I think that is a major risk. Where we disagree is you have called him "useless" and "terrible" in recent days. I don't think he is either of those things. I think he has some burst and some bend and in terms of a pass rusher who can actually just flat out beat his man to the edge he is the best the Bills have unless Von can re-find his form. But he isn't consistent, he can't set the edge and he lacks discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, dave mcbride said: Yet he performed like the all pro that he was while here. He helped take the Bills' passing offense to new heights, and there was certainly no guarantee a rookie under control would have ever approached that level of production. I don't know why Bills fans have a hard time conceiving of Diggs as a highly successful first round draft pick, because that's how he performed. As for the money, you pay for high-end talent in the NFL, and that's what he was. He averaged 111 catches for 1,343 yards and 9+ TDs per season while here. It's the best four-year stretch for a receiver in Bills history. Just a guess, but it might have something to do with the fact that had the Bills kept their first and fourth round picks, they probably would have ended up with the best receiver in football, now entering the prime of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Claude Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: Usually I regard Beane as a straight shooter for a GM but "confidence is very high in T. Bass" has to be an out and out lie. Edit -- someone pointed out it was McDermott who said it and not Beane. Edited August 22 by Billy Claude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotAGuy Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 The Bills should set a record for fewest FGs attempted this season. No FG attempts unless they are inside the 20 and have more than 15 yards for a first down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 17 hours ago, BillsFan130 said: I think they almost have to wait for roster cuts at this point. Every team still has 90 man rosters and a lot of teams have two kickers, so probably not a lot out there now. It will be interesting after cut day when some More kickers will be free agents. If bass continues struggles during the season, you got to start wondering how long his leash will be Only 8 teams have more than 1 kicker. Most are just camp legs. No guarantee at all there will be a good one cut. 1 hour ago, Billy Claude said: Usually I regard Beane as a straight shooter for a GM but "confidence is very high in T. Bass" has to be an out and out lie. It was a McDermott comment. Not Beane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 5 hours ago, dave mcbride said: You’re forgetting the first round pick, who turned out to be a multi-time all pro. He said draft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Claude Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 16 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: It was a McDermott comment. Not Beane. Ok thanks. I obviously didn't read it carefully enough. It makes more sense that the clearly insincere platitude came from McDermott. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshynman Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 5 hours ago, Blackbeard said: How can you even say that? No one really knows what happened. To make this claim is ridiculous. Has one coach or player come out with this? Any players on the Vikings? No. all you know is what the media thinks. It’s basically gossip, whether factual or not. I judge by what I see and what is said by players. Even saying he was a great WR. You can tell they won't throw him under the bus, but attitude was a problem. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 6 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said: This sounds like the coach's kiss of death 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbeard Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, sunshynman said: I judge by what I see and what is said by players. Even saying he was a great WR. You can tell they won't throw him under the bus, but attitude was a problem. What was said by his fellow players? please quote. Otherwise you’re just gossiping about things you haven’t a clue on and talking out your ass. Edited August 22 by Blackbeard 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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