T master Posted July 8 Posted July 8 46 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: You're dating yourself. But it makes sense. A 1950s reference from people with a 1950s approach to economics. Let's slap massive tariffs on everything, they say. Let's even replace the income tax with tariffs, they say. Sounds like an outstanding idea, until one realizes that the economy is now global and that replacing the income tax with tariffs shifts the burden for funding the government from high-income earners to the peanut-earners like everyone who reads this board. Not a good plan at all, unless you want to pay more in taxes. So here's a idea lets bring the manufacturing back here on US soil where it belongs anyway so we aren't dependent on China for every thing consumed and we can tell the rest of them to go piss off . The pandemic should have shown all of us just how vulnerable the US is any more we can barely stand on our own 2 feet & the way our gov't is letting China buy up land here it won't be long or all ready may be worse than the people know but the gov't once again doesn't care !! The US use to be the strongest because we were independent to the point we didn't need other countries to support our selves or didn't depend on them for our every day things, but totally different now we can't even wipe our own ass with out asking china for the TP to do so that's pretty sad !! Would be no need tariffs of any kind to level the field or not if we weren't importing everything we use .
All_Pro_Bills Posted July 8 Posted July 8 9 minutes ago, T master said: So here's a idea lets bring the manufacturing back here on US soil where it belongs anyway so we aren't dependent on China for every thing consumed and we can tell the rest of them to go piss off . The pandemic should have shown all of us just how vulnerable the US is any more we can barely stand on our own 2 feet & the way our gov't is letting China buy up land here it won't be long or all ready may be worse than the people know but the gov't once again doesn't care !! The US use to be the strongest because we were independent to the point we didn't need other countries to support our selves or didn't depend on them for our every day things, but totally different now we can't even wipe our own ass with out asking china for the TP to do so that's pretty sad !! Would be no need tariffs of any kind to level the field or not if we weren't importing everything we use . If the conditions and circumstances that led to the globalization of the economy will continue then the current arrangements will work just fine. But it looks like cooperation and collaboration are being replaced by conflict and competition and some changes are in the works. One common belief decades ago was if we granted most favored nation trade status to China we could influence their system and transform them to a democracy. Because after all we believed, the entire world wants to be just like us. That policy turned out to be fantasy and folly. China did not want to be like us. Now, thanks to every day low prices, they're our leading competitor (I wouldn't say enemy) and are looking to replace America as the world's leading power. My guess is we're heading for a world that is defined by regional trading and economic blocks of nations with common goals and the system will be quite dynamic with alliances and arrangements changing as nations see their situation change. Hardly the recipe for global cooperation.
SectionC3 Posted July 8 Posted July 8 2 hours ago, T master said: So here's a idea lets bring the manufacturing back here on US soil where it belongs anyway so we aren't dependent on China for every thing consumed and we can tell the rest of them to go piss off . The pandemic should have shown all of us just how vulnerable the US is any more we can barely stand on our own 2 feet & the way our gov't is letting China buy up land here it won't be long or all ready may be worse than the people know but the gov't once again doesn't care !! The US use to be the strongest because we were independent to the point we didn't need other countries to support our selves or didn't depend on them for our every day things, but totally different now we can't even wipe our own ass with out asking china for the TP to do so that's pretty sad !! Would be no need tariffs of any kind to level the field or not if we weren't importing everything we use . Cool idea. Any idea how much it costs to make that t-shirt you’re wearing? Probably next to nothing because it was manufactured in Indonesia or Vietnam. I don’t disagree about manufacturing tech here - we can’t be reliant upon Taiwan for chips, or on China for iPhones. But the world is interconnected, and the harsh reality is that our best path forward is to educate our populous, perform white collar tech, education, design, and high-end manufacturing here, and exploit third-world labor for most consumer goods. Quite honestly, we’re stupid to make, as you said, toilet paper here, because it’s cheaper and better to exploit labor elsewhere to get it done. I understand the frustration of the uneducated who are stuck with a declining manufacturing base. But blaming Mexicans and others for taking “our” jobs is not only factually incorrect, but ridiculous. Do you want to pick strawberries? Me neither. Do you want to grind it out six days a week in front of a sewing machine making Nike t-shirts? I don’t. The world moved on while you and others were grinding it out in a factory, and the path forward is to let “them” grind it out manufacturing most of the disposable crap that “we” don’t need and to orient our workforce such that we remain the world leader in tech and in design. Manufacturing, coal, you name it. It’s not what it used to be, and taxing Americans to save those dying sectors is not the way to go. 2 hours ago, Tenhigh said: I'll vote for Manchin over these 2 old buzzards. Flip 10 blue! Trump is a lying, immoral, unprepared goof. Biden is a good man who lived a good life but who is looking at the peak of the hill from a distance in the rear view mirror. A moderate from either side would win this election cycle going away. 1
Tommy Callahan Posted July 8 Posted July 8 We're making some points till this bs "Biden is a good man who lived a good life but who is looking at the peak of the hill from a distance in the rear view mirror" 1 1 1
All_Pro_Bills Posted July 8 Posted July 8 (edited) 26 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: Cool idea. Any idea how much it costs to make that t-shirt you’re wearing? Probably next to nothing because it was manufactured in Indonesia or Vietnam. I don’t disagree about manufacturing tech here - we can’t be reliant upon Taiwan for chips, or on China for iPhones. But the world is interconnected, and the harsh reality is that our best path forward is to educate our populous, perform white collar tech, education, design, and high-end manufacturing here, and exploit third-world labor for most consumer goods. Quite honestly, we’re stupid to make, as you said, toilet paper here, because it’s cheaper and better to exploit labor elsewhere to get it done. I understand the frustration of the uneducated who are stuck with a declining manufacturing base. But blaming Mexicans and others for taking “our” jobs is not only factually incorrect, but ridiculous. Do you want to pick strawberries? Me neither. Do you want to grind it out six days a week in front of a sewing machine making Nike t-shirts? I don’t. The world moved on while you and others were grinding it out in a factory, and the path forward is to let “them” grind it out manufacturing most of the disposable crap that “we” don’t need and to orient our workforce such that we remain the world leader in tech and in design. Manufacturing, coal, you name it. It’s not what it used to be, and taxing Americans to save those dying sectors is not the way to go. A big risk to your vision is our educational system. Through whatever shortcomings, its failing to produce the scientists, engineers, and professionals to work in those high-value tech industries. I see it firsthand. I live in a fairly affluent community where the price of housing is out of reach for most Americans. When homes are sold they are typically bought by immigrants or 1st generation Americans who are professionals in one area or another. Scientists, physicians, engineers that have legally come to the US for opportunity or are sponsored by an employer in those high value industries. They're the people that have the skills and experience necessary to earn high incomes and afford the down payment and a hefty mortgage. American's either are being overlooked for those jobs or don't have the necessary skills. The idea our educational system is excellent and superior is a echo of the past. We need more highly educated and skilled immigrants. And more highly skilled and educated Americans in hard sciences too. Which is another reason I give pause to why our government is intent on importing millions of unskilled immigrants you've made a reasonable case that we don't need. Edited July 8 by All_Pro_Bills
Biden is Mentally Fit Posted July 8 Posted July 8 1 hour ago, SectionC3 said: Biden is a good man who lived a good life HOAX 3 1 1 2
SectionC3 Posted July 8 Posted July 8 56 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: A big risk to your vision is our educational system. Through whatever shortcomings, it’s failing to produce the scientists, engineers, and professionals to work in those high-value tech industries. I see it firsthand. I live in a fairly affluent community where the price of housing is out of reach for most Americans. When homes are sold they are typically bought by immigrants or 1st generation Americans who are professionals in one area or another. Scientists, physicians, engineers that have legally come to the US for opportunity or are sponsored by an employer in those high value industries. They're the people that have the skills and experience necessary to earn high incomes and afford the down payment and a hefty mortgage. American's either are being overlooked for those jobs or don't have the necessary skills. The idea our educational system is excellent and superior is an echo of the past. We need more highly educated and skilled immigrants. And more highly skilled and educated Americans in hard sciences too. Which is another reason I give pause to why our government is intent on importing millions of unskilled immigrants you've made a reasonable case that we don't need. I don’t disagree that the educational system is not without its warts. But the biggest problem with that system is that we have a generation—maybe two—of lazy, drug- and video-game addled, soft students who don’t want to put the work in. It’s not just “suburban elites” who are fat and lazy and out of shape. The rural Trumpers are front and center here, too. Want to shoot guns and drink beer and not pay attention in school? It’s just as bad as wasting time on Halo or Fortnite or Twitter or whatever. And, eventually, it all catches up with people. In this country, we have two different kinds of lazy whiners. The liberal elite kids who want their loans forgiven and guaranteed basic income or whatever it is because things are hard and difficult and they’re in a jam financially but unwilling to sacrifice. Then, on the other hand, we have the fat, lazy Trumpers who think the libs are soft but who didn’t pay attention in school and who find later in life that physical labor isn’t all its cracked up to be and who then want to enact tariffs and have the right wingers (who allegedly aren’t socialists) take control of the economy and lower the price of steak and the friggin diabetes medication that they wouldn’t need if they put down the ho-hos and Jack and said no to a sausage once in awhile. That’s only after they blame other people (Mexicans, libs, China, etc.) for their own lack of foresight and intellectual laziness. It’s those Mexicans who made them drown in Crown on the weekends, screw around in high school or community college, and buy some massive pickup truck they can neither afford nor need. It’s sad, really. To get to your point about immigrants, none of the aforementioned Americans wants to pick a strawberry or milk a cow. So there’s a market for the inglorious manual labor that many of the migrants do when they get here. And, as far as the intellectual immigration to this country, I’d rather have them than not. The sad reality is that there’s a market for them, too. Building walls and keeping them out only deprives us of the benefit of the best and brightest who did the stuff that the bozos in trailers with Trump flags and the liberal whiners with nothing to show for their degrees from Bucknell didn’t want to do. America 2024.
Tenhigh Posted July 8 Posted July 8 7 hours ago, SectionC3 said: o. Trump is a lying, immoral, unprepared goof. Biden is a good man who lived a good life but who is looking at the peak of the hill from a distance in the rear view mirror. A moderate from either side would win this election cycle going away. I agree about Trump, but your "good man" is a lying immoral old racist who was run out of his first presidential run for plagiarism. He also seems to have taken inappropriate showers with his daughter. Beyond that, we agree. 1
njbuff Posted July 8 Posted July 8 8 hours ago, SectionC3 said: Cool idea. Any idea how much it costs to make that t-shirt you’re wearing? Probably next to nothing because it was manufactured in Indonesia or Vietnam. I don’t disagree about manufacturing tech here - we can’t be reliant upon Taiwan for chips, or on China for iPhones. But the world is interconnected, and the harsh reality is that our best path forward is to educate our populous, perform white collar tech, education, design, and high-end manufacturing here, and exploit third-world labor for most consumer goods. Quite honestly, we’re stupid to make, as you said, toilet paper here, because it’s cheaper and better to exploit labor elsewhere to get it done. I understand the frustration of the uneducated who are stuck with a declining manufacturing base. But blaming Mexicans and others for taking “our” jobs is not only factually incorrect, but ridiculous. Do you want to pick strawberries? Me neither. Do you want to grind it out six days a week in front of a sewing machine making Nike t-shirts? I don’t. The world moved on while you and others were grinding it out in a factory, and the path forward is to let “them” grind it out manufacturing most of the disposable crap that “we” don’t need and to orient our workforce such that we remain the world leader in tech and in design. Manufacturing, coal, you name it. It’s not what it used to be, and taxing Americans to save those dying sectors is not the way to go. Trump is a lying, immoral, unprepared goof. Biden is a good man who lived a good life but who is looking at the peak of the hill from a distance in the rear view mirror. A moderate from either side would win this election cycle going away. Bi-dumb is the biggest scumbag in the history of politics, along with his witch wife. Of course, you are a dumbazz Demonrat who REFUSES to accept the truth. Typical. 1 1
SectionC3 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 12 hours ago, Tenhigh said: I agree about Trump, but your "good man" is a lying immoral old racist who was run out of his first presidential run for plagiarism. He also seems to have taken inappropriate showers with his daughter. Beyond that, we agree. And yet Jim Clyburn supports him. I can’t speak to his showering habits - I don’t know what you’re talking about there. But the plagiarism thing hardly makes one a bad person. Of course it was a mistake. Life, however, is a matter of degree, and that issue pales in comparison to other mistakes made by others in public life.
Biden is Mentally Fit Posted July 9 Posted July 9 1 hour ago, SectionC3 said: And yet Jim Clyburn supports him. I can’t speak to his showering habits - I don’t know what you’re talking about there. But the plagiarism thing hardly makes one a bad person. Of course it was a mistake. Life, however, is a matter of degree, and that issue pales in comparison to other mistakes made by others in public life. George Wallace also supported him. Biden even boasted about it. The guy has never come across a lie he wouldn’t tell and people declare him to be a good person. Hoax. 1 1
T master Posted July 9 Posted July 9 (edited) On 7/8/2024 at 7:29 AM, All_Pro_Bills said: If the conditions and circumstances that led to the globalization of the economy will continue then the current arrangements will work just fine. But it looks like cooperation and collaboration are being replaced by conflict and competition and some changes are in the works. One common belief decades ago was if we granted most favored nation trade status to China we could influence their system and transform them to a democracy. Because after all we believed, the entire world wants to be just like us. That policy turned out to be fantasy and folly. China did not want to be like us. Now, thanks to every day low prices, they're our leading competitor (I wouldn't say enemy) and are looking to replace America as the world's leading power. My guess is we're heading for a world that is defined by regional trading and economic blocks of nations with common goals and the system will be quite dynamic with alliances and arrangements changing as nations see their situation change. Hardly the recipe for global cooperation. First off there are 3 words that will say if "Global Economy" works or not . 1 being Democracy (which is a free basis of gov't) the other being Communism which is the exact opposite in the mind set of operation the 3rd being Socialism again a opposite . Then you add the American ego into the equation which has been trying to literally PUSH our life style on every other country in the world for decades (and they have failed miserably) the global thing was a failure before it ever began ! Just enter into this economic globalization plan Iran, Russia, China, Iraq, Syria, Korea, Brazil, Afghanistan, and the many other counties that think nothing at all like America it was nothing but a pipe dream to think this would work . Personally i would rather depend on America because at 1 point we proved that we can be a self sustaining country with that, as lazy as our population has become not sure we could do it any more especially with the younger generation coming up. I would love to see something say "Made in America" on it but i have searched and can't find it any more, other than say maybe food because or maybe opioids or some kind of pharmaceutical which both are American obsessions now . America is a country that has sold its soul for profit in the name of "Globalization" and as we saw in the pandemic we were at the mercy of others & i for one didn't like it 1 bit but then i am not of the new America i was raised to take care of America first and i know that's pretty selfish to a lot of people now days but one day it will all come back to bight them in the ass i'm sure as it has already started, all in the name of cheap prices . When the country & it's politicians do wake up it may be way to late and half or more of America will be owned by foreigners literally as its' land and people and the politicians along with their Globalization policy's will be to blame for it while we all hold the bag ... ANd the so called forward thinkers like Kamala & Newsome will be leading the charge . Edited July 9 by T master 1
T master Posted July 9 Posted July 9 22 hours ago, SectionC3 said: Cool idea. Any idea how much it costs to make that t-shirt you’re wearing? Probably next to nothing because it was manufactured in Indonesia or Vietnam. I don’t disagree about manufacturing tech here - we can’t be reliant upon Taiwan for chips, or on China for iPhones. But the world is interconnected, and the harsh reality is that our best path forward is to educate our populous, perform white collar tech, education, design, and high-end manufacturing here, and exploit third-world labor for most consumer goods. Quite honestly, we’re stupid to make, as you said, toilet paper here, because it’s cheaper and better to exploit labor elsewhere to get it done. I understand the frustration of the uneducated who are stuck with a declining manufacturing base. But blaming Mexicans and others for taking “our” jobs is not only factually incorrect, but ridiculous. Do you want to pick strawberries? Me neither. Do you want to grind it out six days a week in front of a sewing machine making Nike t-shirts? I don’t. The world moved on while you and others were grinding it out in a factory, and the path forward is to let “them” grind it out manufacturing most of the disposable crap that “we” don’t need and to orient our workforce such that we remain the world leader in tech and in design. Manufacturing, coal, you name it. It’s not what it used to be, and taxing Americans to save those dying sectors is not the way to go. Trump is a lying, immoral, unprepared goof. Biden is a good man who lived a good life but who is looking at the peak of the hill from a distance in the rear view mirror. A moderate from either side would win this election cycle going away. 1 word that stick out in your reply & should be in BOLD print is the word EXPLOIT which has become a American theme ! Sure you don't want to work 6 days a week which again has become the theme of America in the EXPLOITATION of the American dream but you would rather have all the homeless tent cities all over the country than allow those folks work right here in America . If our beloved Gov't would get their S**T together and live like we have to (well most of us) only spending as much money as we have that is with in our means instead of having $32+ TRILLION of a deficit the cost of living wouldn't be as high and those homeless might be able to live on a lessor wage but thanks totally to our blind faith in the politicians we elect here the country is . I for one was 1 that was pushed out of my job in Fl. due to illegal immigration ! Due to the fact that most of the lazy white folks that didn't want to work 6 days a week to EARN a living & those being the fat white guy in the air conditioned pick up playing candy crush, or the lazy white owner that forgot how hard his dad worked to build the company so he could reap the benefits then run the company into the ground ! All because of his EXPLOITATION to hire illegals to do a lessor job much faster so he could make more profit all while screwing over those like myself that build a far superior product which costs more but lasts longer which all were the reason why America wanted to hire the illegals, so welcome to the newer lazier America !!! We reap what we sew !!! So ya'll got your wish and there may be no way to stop the bleeding now because of the over sensitivity to do the hard things that it will require to get things any where near what it was financially with the true American mind set to work for what you get instead of give me what i deserve because i am American . I find it pretty sad today the entitlement mind set is now the "American Dream" let someone else do the work so I can profit the most from it !! As long as that mind set is in place the country will muttle along but will never be the America that every other country wanted to be like, we are now the guy with huge ego that thinks every one should be like me & no one likes any more and just wants to hang on our coat tails as we tumble down the mountain side ...
SectionC3 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 1 hour ago, T master said: First off there are 3 words that will say if "Global Economy" works or not . 1 being Democracy (which is a free basis of gov't) the other being Communism which is the exact opposite in the mind set of operation the 3rd being Socialism again a opposite . Then you add the American ego into the equation which has been trying to literally PUSH our life style on every other country in the world for decades (and they have failed miserably) the global thing was a failure before it ever began ! Just enter into this economic globalization plan Iran, Russia, China, Iraq, Syria, Korea, Brazil, Afghanistan, and the many other counties that think nothing at all like America it was nothing but a pipe dream to think this would work . Personally i would rather depend on America because at 1 point we proved that we can be a self sustaining country with that, as lazy as our population has become not sure we could do it any more especially with the younger generation coming up. I would love to see something say "Made in America" on it but i have searched and can't find it any more, other than say maybe food because or maybe opioids or some kind of pharmaceutical which both are American obsessions now . America is a country that has sold its soul for profit in the name of "Globalization" and as we saw in the pandemic we were at the mercy of others & i for one didn't like it 1 bit but then i am not of the new America i was raised to take care of America first and i know that's pretty selfish to a lot of people now days but one day it will all come back to bight them in the ass i'm sure as it has already started, all in the name of cheap prices . When the country & it's politicians do wake up it may be way to late and half or more of America will be owned by foreigners literally as its' land and people and the politicians along with their Globalization policy's will be to blame for it while we all hold the bag ... ANd the so called forward thinkers like Kamala & Newsome will be leading the charge . Sounds like your problem really is with capitalism and free trade. Which makes it surprising that you’re a Republican. But I guess that party is different nowadays.
SectionC3 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 1 hour ago, T master said: 1 word that stick out in your reply & should be in BOLD print is the word EXPLOIT which has become a American theme ! Sure you don't want to work 6 days a week which again has become the theme of America in the EXPLOITATION of the American dream but you would rather have all the homeless tent cities all over the country than allow those folks work right here in America . If our beloved Gov't would get their S**T together and live like we have to (well most of us) only spending as much money as we have that is with in our means instead of having $32+ TRILLION of a deficit the cost of living wouldn't be as high and those homeless might be able to live on a lessor wage but thanks totally to our blind faith in the politicians we elect here the country is . I for one was 1 that was pushed out of my job in Fl. due to illegal immigration ! Due to the fact that most of the lazy white folks that didn't want to work 6 days a week to EARN a living & those being the fat white guy in the air conditioned pick up playing candy crush, or the lazy white owner that forgot how hard his dad worked to build the company so he could reap the benefits then run the company into the ground ! All because of his EXPLOITATION to hire illegals to do a lessor job much faster so he could make more profit all while screwing over those like myself that build a far superior product which costs more but lasts longer which all were the reason why America wanted to hire the illegals, so welcome to the newer lazier America !!! We reap what we sew !!! So ya'll got your wish and there may be no way to stop the bleeding now because of the over sensitivity to do the hard things that it will require to get things any where near what it was financially with the true American mind set to work for what you get instead of give me what i deserve because i am American . I find it pretty sad today the entitlement mind set is now the "American Dream" let someone else do the work so I can profit the most from it !! As long as that mind set is in place the country will muttle along but will never be the America that every other country wanted to be like, we are now the guy with huge ego that thinks every one should be like me & no one likes any more and just wants to hang on our coat tails as we tumble down the mountain side ... So let me get this straight - homelessness is a byproduct of federal borrowing? I’m not terribly conversant with the federal budget, but I believe that the borrowing supports such things as military spending (a Trump prerogative of convenience), and subsidized housing (maybe not a Trump issue, unless he’s getting the check, but apparently now an issue for Trumpers). I believe in capitalism and, if you’ve squandered your money and time on booze and cigs and four wheelers and other crap you didn’t need, then later in life you pay a guy like me to put a roof over your head. And I squeeze you, because it’s a business and that’s how things work in our economy. If you’d like rent control and affordability, maybe public housing is the way to go. Or you can just be a socialist. Either one. But I like where I’m at right now, and I believe in capitalism. Also, it sounds a lot like you’re blaming other people for your problems. It doesn’t seem like you paid too much attention in school. So you had to do blue collar work. No shame in that. But you’re also beholden to the white collar folks for the intellectual piece of your economic puzzle. And, it seems, they screwed it up by scrimping on labor costs. Fair enough. In the meantime, you’ve overlooked the idea that maybe if it wasn’t these “illegals” the folks who ran your company would have hired non-union, unskilled, cheap labor and reached the same result perhaps a little more quickly than they did with the illegals. (Maybe if it wasn’t for the lazy white people there would have been no market for the illegals, but I digress.). You’ve also overlooked the point that you apparently saw all of this happening and, instead of looking for a new job and getting out ahead of it, you rode the ship to the bottom and now are blaming other people for your lack of foresight. I’ll add that, if all of what you’ve said is true, then it should be pretty easy for you to pick up other work given your description of your work ethic and your immigration status. I sincerely hope it works out for you, and I’m sorry about the job situation. You and I just disagree on who to blame (accountability is a piece that I think most Americans lack) and how to fix it (hint: if you’re working class, it ain’t Trump). 2 hours ago, JDHillFan said: George Wallace also supported him. Biden even boasted about it. The guy has never come across a lie he wouldn’t tell and people declare him to be a good person. Hoax. I imagine Jim Clyburn’s present support accounts for the George Wallace issue, and I have a hard time believing that Jim Clyburn would support a racist.
Biden is Mentally Fit Posted July 9 Posted July 9 3 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: I imagine Jim Clyburn’s present support accounts for the George Wallace issue, and I have a hard time believing that Jim Clyburn would support a racist. Politicians never do anything for convenience. You made more sense when you were telling us about the foreign policy master class Biden was conducting.
SectionC3 Posted July 9 Posted July 9 Just now, JDHillFan said: Politicians never do anything for convenience. You made more sense when you were telling us about the foreign policy master class Biden was conducting. Ukraine is (mostly) free, and Iran and Israel aren’t shooting at each other. Meanwhile, my stock portfolio is smoking hot. Master class.
Biden is Mentally Fit Posted July 9 Posted July 9 Just now, SectionC3 said: Ukraine is (mostly) free, and Iran and Israel aren’t shooting at each other. Meanwhile, my stock portfolio is smoking hot. Master class. Lol. People will tell themselves anything and say anything in service of politicians. Very weird stuff. you are supposed to stylize it “Master. Class” for cool effect.
Doc Posted July 9 Posted July 9 (edited) 5 hours ago, SectionC3 said: And yet Jim Clyburn supports him. I can’t speak to his showering habits - I don’t know what you’re talking about there. But the plagiarism thing hardly makes one a bad person. Of course it was a mistake. Life, however, is a matter of degree, and that issue pales in comparison to other mistakes made by others in public life. His daughter Ashley wrote about it in her diary. I know she's not some whackjob newpaper columnist but she deserves to be believed all the same, if not more so. Edited July 9 by Doc
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