Thurman#1 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 11 hours ago, warrior9 said: Where is your proof of that? Because it wasn't posted on websites? So your stance is until this offseason, he didn't work on his craft? Just strolled in to training camp and said "alright, let's do this!" Then lead the league in yards and TDs? No, his stance is not that he didn't work on his craft before this offseason. He specifically says so in the post you just replied to. We have a bunch of evidence of times when he worked on his form and such in the offseason he talked about it. Then he didn't talk about anything the last couple of years. Then he started again this year. Also the Bussing with the Boys podcast he essentially said last offseason that he didn't do anything but recover. That isn't absolute proof, but there's no absolute proof the other way either. Not proof, but it is indicative. He may well have been besotted with the new GF and let that affect him. That's a guess, not anything there's evidence for, but it's a reasonable guess, I think. 1 Quote
without a drought Posted June 13 Posted June 13 I'm not passing judgement until I know what kind of chips. 1 2 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: He worked with Palmer on different things in different years. Yes, particularly in year one they concentrated on synching lower and upper body, but it was more than that. They also both mentioned rotating the upper body more and using the rotation to provide power. They mentioned one or two other things as well. Not sure whether it was year two or three but they worked together on improving his longer throws in terms of dropping it into a bucket, increasing the angle so receivers had a bit more time to run under it rather than just line driving it out to guys running long routes. They worked on a lot of different things. Most likely he doesn't go to the QB summit anymore because he's rich enough and focused enough that he's no longer willing to share the time he spends with his coach with another bunch of guys. A very reasonable stance at this point in his career. I think the developing vs. refining thing isn't particularly useful here. He still works with Palmer and he wouldn't if Palmer was only good at developing young guys. They obviously worked on a lot of stuff But at the quarterback summit they would go days and days without even touching a football He didn't have Josh Allen throwing 500 footballs a day... Even in private workouts... Sure they worked on deep ball trajectory and lots of stuff But Josh's release wasn't really the problem... It wasn't perfect but it was efficient...It was everything mechanically leading up to the release. His feet , hips , torso , shoulders Yeah he still works with him occasionally because he's really good... But Josh might have found other quarterback coaches for other stuff and outgrew some of his coaching That happens all the time... And his release did regress last year I suspect because of injury If I recall correctly he's working with Chris Hess right now... Who is a sports scientist who also maps and tracks throwing motion To help clean up the inefficiencies that came on last year in his release... Mainly some stuff with the elbow Edited June 13 by Buffalo716 Quote
Richard Noggin Posted June 13 Posted June 13 23 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: Yeah you can never correct Tim tebow's motion at the NFL level Even Sam darnold has too much of an elongated motion... When people talk about fast release.. it's not how quick the quarterback gets rid of the ball from the snap... It's how fast he can release the ball once he starts his motion Where does this line of analysis leave us when looking at Maye's (NE) release? Strikes me as brutally elongated, and with a hitch. Quote
Buffalo716 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said: Where does this line of analysis leave us when looking at Maye's (NE) release? Strikes me as brutally elongated, and with a hitch. Not good for his NFL future ... He needs to make it more compact... Repeatable and more efficient... NFL corners in zone coverage who are already usually within milliseconds of coverage... Only need that extra split second of a hitch or elongated motion for a pick He's super talented.. but definitely has longer release for a top NFL quarterback prospect ... His is definitely able to get cleaned up... It's not disgusting bad... But It is longer with a hitch... It would not be described as crisp... And our defensive back corp and linebacker corp will be able to play the ball better Edited June 13 by Buffalo716 1 Quote
Beck Water Posted June 13 Posted June 13 6 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Well you keep telling me I’m wrong. So that’s basically calling me out. I don’t even really know what you’re trying to say to be honest. I am saying Allen said in an interview last year that he does less. What in the world are you saying? I'm saying that you are putting words into Josh's mouth that he did not say on the Bussin with the Boys podcast You are interpreting what he said to fit your narrative. Then when someone calls you out on it, you're all "oh, let's not go back into this" 14 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: I think it’s exactly what people were saying. He used to work on his craft more than he did the last couple years. He’s getting back to that. You can not find a quote from that podcast where Josh says that. He said things that you interpret that way, like that he basically used to start working out like OTAs just a couple weeks after the season and now he doesn't do that. But working out isn't the only way a QB "works on his craft", nor has Josh in any way said "he's getting back to that" (eg, starting to work out immediately after the season like OTA). I'm all for "let's not get back into that", but then, don't get back into it; don't put out your interpretation, claim it's what Josh said, and then tell everyone else not to get into it. In the thread you referenced, I actually went through and provided a complete transcript of what Josh actually said. He never said "I used to work on my craft more than I did the last couple years". 1 2 Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 13 Posted June 13 (edited) 5 hours ago, Beck Water said: I'm saying that you are putting words into Josh's mouth that he did not say on the Bussin with the Boys podcast You are interpreting what he said to fit your narrative. Then when someone calls you out on it, you're all "oh, let's not go back into this" You can not find a quote from that podcast where Josh says that. He said things that you interpret that way, like that he basically used to start working out like OTAs just a couple weeks after the season and now he doesn't do that. But working out isn't the only way a QB "works on his craft", nor has Josh in any way said "he's getting back to that" (eg, starting to work out immediately after the season like OTA). I'm all for "let's not get back into that", but then, don't get back into it; don't put out your interpretation, claim it's what Josh said, and then tell everyone else not to get into it. In the thread you referenced, I actually went through and provided a complete transcript of what Josh actually said. He never said "I used to work on my craft more than I did the last couple years". I’m not sure why this becomes such a debate. Allen says he does less than he used to. What’s the problem? I’ve never even been critical of his approach. Whatever works.The working on his craft stuff was from Jordan Palmer last year saying Allen mastered his stroke and doesn’t need to do the same things he used to do when he was younger. I’m paraphrasing that because I don’t remember the what interview it was. It is good to hear that Allen thought his mechanics were off and he’s working on them again, like he did a few years ago. Mapping his motion. This is from Allen’s interview with Bussin. Quote Taylor Lewan - “What is your process in the offseason?” Josh Allen - “It’s changed over the course of my career so far. Early on its let’s throw let’s work out 4x a week, like I was in OTA’s the entire offseason. The last couple years it’s like just get away.” He goes on to talk about why he’s changed his offseason approach. Then speaks more on what’s changed. Quote Josh Allen - “In the offseason it’s like get away, try not to do as much. I still throw a little bit still work out a little bit and try to maintain weight is really what I’m trying to do. Enjoy and relax I think, allowing my body to rest and recover. My strength coaches are going to hate that I’m saying this. The last 2 offseasons I haven’t done really anything before OTA’s.We have baseline tests and both years I’ve tested way higher than I’ve ever tested in my entire career. So I’m going to keep doing that.” Some jokes back and forth about not working hard, just jokes. But then he gets back to his offseason. Quote Josh Allen - “Now that I’m an established 5 year vet, this is year 6 for me this is the process I’ve found helps for me the most. Let’s call a spade a spade, I’m not everybody. Once we go back in I work hard and I get back into shape real quick.” Edited June 13 by Buffalo_Stampede Quote
Beck Water Posted June 13 Posted June 13 3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: I’m not sure why this becomes such a debate. It's not a debate. A debate is something like when @Shaw66 and I disagree about whether swiss-Army-knife WR are the wave of the NFL future vs more specialized boundary/X and slot receivers. We each have points on our side and we lay them out. 3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Allen says he does less than he used to. What’s the problem? The problem is that you brought it up as "He used to work on his craft more than he did the last couple years. He’s getting back to that." and attributed that to Josh Allen's own words. That's wrong. Quote Josh Allen - “In the offseason it’s like get away, try not to do as much. I still throw a little bit still work out a little bit and try to maintain weight is really what I’m trying to do. Enjoy and relax I think, allowing my body to rest and recover. My strength coaches are going to hate that I’m saying this. The last 2 offseasons I haven’t done really anything before OTA’s.We have baseline tests and both years I’ve tested way higher than I’ve ever tested in my entire career. So I’m going to keep doing that.” Correct quote, but that's not saying "work on his craft" less. That's saying he doesn't work out 4x a week from January 21 (Division round) to April 15 (start of OTAs). And he's saying he still throws and works out, just not as intensely, 4x a week. There are other aspects for a QB of working on their craft - watching film, getting in the playbook, etc. He may be doing that less, more, or the same - he didn't go into that. I don't think he's "getting back to that" ie working out 4x a week in Feb/March. What he's said is that he's specifically working this off-season on tweaking his mechanics because with the shoulder and elbow injury, they got off. And it's not clear to me when this work started. Might have started in Feb or March, might have started after Phase I OTAs. It matters to me because in the thread you alluded to we had all sorts of people extrapolating and generalizing from a few words (which they mis-quoted in some instances) to diss on Allen. Quote
Thurman#1 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 11 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: They obviously worked on a lot of stuff But at the quarterback summit they would go days and days without even touching a football He didn't have Josh Allen throwing 500 footballs a day... Even in private workouts... Sure they worked on deep ball trajectory and lots of stuff But Josh's release wasn't really the problem... It wasn't perfect but it was efficient...It was everything mechanically leading up to the release. His feet , hips , torso , shoulders Yeah he still works with him occasionally because he's really good... But Josh might have found other quarterback coaches for other stuff and outgrew some of his coaching That happens all the time... And his release did regress last year I suspect because of injury If I recall correctly he's working with Chris Hess right now... Who is a sports scientist who also maps and tracks throwing motion To help clean up the inefficiencies that came on last year in his release... Mainly some stuff with the elbow His problems the last two years were not only with his release. When you have an injury change one thing, other things in the biomechanical chain change to attempt to compensate with the problem. Yes, his mechanics had some problems. And yes, injuries were likely some of the problem. But there's no particular reason to think it was all of the problem beyond our perhaps wishing it was all of the problem. "Allen told reporters that this isn’t a broad change of his mechanics akin to what he implemented between the 2019 and 2020 seasons, but rather an adjustment sparked by discomfort he felt down the stretch of the 2023 campaign. “I wouldn’t call it a complete overhaul of my throwing motion, but definitely some things to work on and clean up, especially getting long with my arm and a little bit with my stride,” Allen said. “Just trying to clean that up—anytime you go through something like that, sometimes it’s going to feel really good, sometimes it’s not going to feel really good. It’s just like changing a swing in golf, but as long as you’re trusting it and you keep working on it each and every day, results will come." https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/bills-qb-josh-allen-again-digitally-mapping-throwing-motion-to-tweak-mechanics/ar-BB1o6Gwj He worked with Hess in 2019 and 2020, and now before 2024. He had problems with injury changing his mechanics in the 2022 season as well, but after that season he didn't .... Hmmm. Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 13 Posted June 13 23 minutes ago, Beck Water said: It's not a debate. A debate is something like when @Shaw66 and I disagree about whether swiss-Army-knife WR are the wave of the NFL future vs more specialized boundary/X and slot receivers. We each have points on our side and we lay them out. The problem is that you brought it up as "He used to work on his craft more than he did the last couple years. He’s getting back to that." and attributed that to Josh Allen's own words. That's wrong. Correct quote, but that's not saying "work on his craft" less. That's saying he doesn't work out 4x a week from January 21 (Division round) to April 15 (start of OTAs). And he's saying he still throws and works out, just not as intensely, 4x a week. There are other aspects for a QB of working on their craft - watching film, getting in the playbook, etc. He may be doing that less, more, or the same - he didn't go into that. I don't think he's "getting back to that" ie working out 4x a week in Feb/March. What he's said is that he's specifically working this off-season on tweaking his mechanics because with the shoulder and elbow injury, they got off. And it's not clear to me when this work started. Might have started in Feb or March, might have started after Phase I OTAs. It matters to me because in the thread you alluded to we had all sorts of people extrapolating and generalizing from a few words (which they mis-quoted in some instances) to diss on Allen. Whatever he’s doing it works. And I for one love to hear that he recognized an issue and plans to fix it. So maybe he’s not physically working on his craft as much as he use to but he’s definitely studying his craft and making sure all of his mechanics are up to his standards. Quote
Thurman#1 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: It's not a debate. A debate is something like when @Shaw66 and I disagree about whether swiss-Army-knife WR are the wave of the NFL future vs more specialized boundary/X and slot receivers. We each have points on our side and we lay them out. The problem is that you brought it up as "He used to work on his craft more than he did the last couple years. He’s getting back to that." and attributed that to Josh Allen's own words. That's wrong. Correct quote, but that's not saying "work on his craft" less. That's saying he doesn't work out 4x a week from January 21 (Division round) to April 15 (start of OTAs). And he's saying he still throws and works out, just not as intensely, 4x a week. There are other aspects for a QB of working on their craft - watching film, getting in the playbook, etc. He may be doing that less, more, or the same - he didn't go into that. I don't think he's "getting back to that" ie working out 4x a week in Feb/March. What he's said is that he's specifically working this off-season on tweaking his mechanics because with the shoulder and elbow injury, they got off. And it's not clear to me when this work started. Might have started in Feb or March, might have started after Phase I OTAs. It matters to me because in the thread you alluded to we had all sorts of people extrapolating and generalizing from a few words (which they mis-quoted in some instances) to diss on Allen. You're straining here, Beck. He said, "The last 2 offseasons I haven’t done really anything before OTA’s." Your understanding of that is, "that's not saying 'work on his craft' less. That's saying he doesn't work out 4x a week from January 21 (Division round) to April 15 (start of OTAs). " You're spinning here. "haven't really done anything" is saying an awful lot more specifically about not doing anything than, "doesn't work out 4x per week." It just is. January 21st to April 15 is nearly three months. Of doing not really anything. Last offseason at least. He also mentioned getting more serious about understanding whiskies, if I remember correctly. He had time for that. He does need rest and relaxation and recovery, they all do. But can you imagine Peyton or Brady saying something like this? I can't even imagine early Josh saying it. Happily, he seems to have gotten more serious again this year. Or at least he's trying to put that out there. It can never be clear whether it's a more serious approach or just good P.R. unless we get hold of Josh's paper calendar, which will never happen. Your thoughts about whether "getting back to that" means working out 4x a week have as little basis as anything anyone else here said. Whatever precisely "getting back to that" means, it's more than "haven't really done anything." Edited June 13 by Thurman#1 1 Quote
Warcodered Posted June 13 Posted June 13 16 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Well you keep telling me I’m wrong. So that’s basically calling me out. I don’t even really know what you’re trying to say to be honest. I am saying Allen said in an interview last year that he does less. What in the world are you saying? That'd be because you're wrong what I remember is he was talking about that it's not as helpful watching film of teams for him because a lot of teams tend to play against him different, so a bunch of tape of how they played the last few weeks isn't as useful. Quote
Beck Water Posted June 13 Posted June 13 39 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: You're straining here, Beck. He said, "The last 2 offseasons I haven’t done really anything before OTA’s." Your understanding of that is, "that's not saying 'work on his craft' less. That's saying he doesn't work out 4x a week from January 21 (Division round) to April 15 (start of OTAs). " Exactly. He explicitly said he works out, throws, and tries to maintain his weight. He's talked about reviewing his film from the previous season and getting his mechanics assessed. You have to look at context. "Bussin' with the Boys" has a particular vibe to it. Allen seems to like to present himself as "The Natural", and he'll say stuff about how he doesn't lift weights with his upper body like he's just "country strong". But then there are tidbits about how he works with Ryan Flaherty, who coaches QBs and QB candidates to focus on training and strengthening the small muscles of the shoulder girdle (the 4 rotator cuff muscles, for example), banded workouts, various pushup variations, and NOT bench-press. Allen has talked about working with S&C staff in Cali and the Bills who focus on keeping him flexible. That stuff is year-round or it doesn't work; you can't build flexibility in a few weeks. 39 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: You're spinning here. "haven't really done anything" is saying an awful lot more specifically about not doing anything than, "doesn't work out 4x per week." It just is. January 21st to April 15 is nearly three months. Of doing not really anything. Except, as he's mentioned, "I still work out and throw some", and the aforementioned work with S&C specialists to strengthen small muscles and develop flexibility. Look, I really don't care what you think about me or what I say. The points were made and the tea leaves read in that thread. My point was and is that Josh has never said "He used to work on his craft more than he did the last couple years. He’s getting back to that." Your stuff about Hess is off. Hess has been on the record that he started working with Josh in March of 2020 (not 2019 as you state above), and Josh has commented in exit interviews that he planned to review his mechanics to make sure things weren't getting off after the 2021 and 2022 seasons (that would be with Chris Hess). I expect he couldn't do much in 2022 due to needing to let his UCL heal. Your implication that he only worked with Hess in 2019 (wrong) and 2020 and now again in 2024 is your interpretation - though it's pretty clear after 2023 season that Josh was in need of more work. 39 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Happily, he seems to have gotten more serious again this year. Or at least he's trying to put that out there. It can never be clear whether it's a more serious approach or just good P.R. unless we get hold of Josh's paper calendar, which will never happen. Exactly. You got it. Unless we have ahold of Josh's calendar (why do you think it's paper?) none of us outside Josh's inner circle know what he's actually doing or not doing. That's my point. Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 13 Posted June 13 20 minutes ago, Warcodered said: That'd be because you're wrong what I remember is he was talking about that it's not as helpful watching film of teams for him because a lot of teams tend to play against him different, so a bunch of tape of how they played the last few weeks isn't as useful. Huh? Quote
Shaw66 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 I'm reluctant to dive in here, because occasionally I get into deep discussions with Thurm, on the one hand, and with Beck, on the other, and those deep discussions sometimes have a tendency to spiral into disagreements that aren't work having, especially because both of you have great things to say. However, I want to add a couple of things. First, the most important point is that we really don't know what Josh does during those three or four months. He says things, or we see photos of him someplace, and many of us tend to generalize from what we hear or see. Second, in the 50s and 60s, pro football players often did nothing at all during the off-season and often got out of shape. They would use training camp as the place to drop 20 pounds, increase their stamina, etc., and the coaches say it as their job to drive the players to get them back into shape. Those days are long gone. Players, almost all of them, have a commitment to the game and to their teammates that makes them understand that it is their job to stay in shape and to work on their games all year-round. I seriously doubt that Allen is not thoughtful all year round about what he eats and drinks and about his conditioning. He understands what he needs to be able to do the day he walks into the facility when OTAs and training camp begin. Third, I've mentioned before what I heard JJ Reddick say one time, which is that someone told him his rookie season that every off-season he had to work on improving some part of his game, because if he came back to the NBA in August without something added to his package of skills from last season, his days in the league would be numbered. I think pretty much every player operates with that kind of attitude now. Every veteran will tell you how much better he is now compared to five years ago. I remember something Diggs said a few years ago about he and his trainer having decided that it's nice to develop the muscles needed to get out of his break quickly, but that it also was important to work on the muscles he needed to decelerate going into the break, a different set of muscles. So, one summer he worked on those muscles, and he added them to his ongoing training routine. By all reports, all of the good players are working on developing their game in ways like that. Fourth, that kind of development for veterans requires serious focus, but it doesn't necessarily take a lot of time. I recall hearing a veteran defensive back talk about film study. He described spending hours on Monday studying film of Sunday's game, fast forwarding through the game to find plays where he was the field, winding and rewinding to look at things. He said that now when he gets on the plane to fly home from an away game, he gets a tablet with every one of his plays from the game preloaded - no time wasted scrolling through anything. And more importantly, he's much more skilled watching film, so that he only needs to watch a play a couple of times to see everything that he needs to get from the film. Same thing for prep for next week's game - he can see pretty quickly what he needs to know about the opponent's scheme, routes, moves, and tendencies. My point is that a veteran like Josh, for example, can be working during the off-season on his footwork without spending hours every day for a month or two on the field. Josh already has, naturally, better footwork than 99% of the QBs in the world, and what he's doing is tweaking compared to what most college QBs would have to do. My conclusion is (1) I seriously doubt that Josh takes the off-season off or shows up in Orchard Park out of shape, and (2) at this point in his career, Josh can do serious off-season work on his game in ways that don't require him to be on the field, gym, or film-room full-time. Patrick Mahomes has been courtside at the Mavs home playoff games, but I don't think for a minute that he doesn't put in some productive football work, physical or mental, on those days. 1 Quote
Warriorspikes51 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 On 6/12/2024 at 9:57 AM, Royale with Cheese said: I really hope the misses on the deep ball were just Diggs related....Allen missed him a good amount when he was open. My optimistic side is Allen was trying to be too perfect with the throw because Diggs diva pressure. It seems when Allen threw it deep to Davis, timing was on point. what? when? Quote
Shaw66 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 1 hour ago, Warcodered said: That'd be because you're wrong what I remember is he was talking about that it's not as helpful watching film of teams for him because a lot of teams tend to play against him different, so a bunch of tape of how they played the last few weeks isn't as useful. This makes sense to me. I'm sure that it's important for Lamar Jackson, for example, to watch film of what teams have done against him lately, because pretty much every team is going to try to copy whatever some team has used successfully to stop him. Yes, he needs to know the general defensive scheme of next Sunday's opponent, but what's going to be important is how they vary that scheme to deal with what Lamar can do to really hurt you. The same is true with Allen. For a couple of seasons, for example, Josh killed teams when he scrambled to his right. He was deadly. Not so much in 2023. I don't know what teams did in terms of Xs and Os, but they did something, because when Josh escaped right last season he wasn't money. Teams figured out the weakness that Josh was attacking and how to adjust the defense to cover that weakness. Quote
Royale with Cheese Posted June 13 Posted June 13 17 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said: what? when? You don't remember them as well because Davis's dropped many of them. I don't remember Allen missing this badly to Davis when Davis was this open. This was as good as you can place a ball 70 yards away. It literally hit Davis in the chest. Quote
Shaw66 Posted June 13 Posted June 13 1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said: You don't remember them as well because Davis's dropped many of them. I don't remember Allen missing this badly to Davis when Davis was this open. This was as good as you can place a ball 70 yards away. It literally hit Davis in the chest. That throw to Davis is interesting. A perfect throw would have been about 2 feet deeper, to allow Davis to pull free a bit. But I'm not complaining - that's a great throw. What I find interesting about it is that Davis exhibits his limitations on this play. His right hand was not being held - he was using it to hold off Sauce. He was looking back and tracking the ball, so his brain should have been telling him when the ball would arrive. However, despite being able to see the ball the way, neither of his hands reacted on time. His left hand was too slow to react, and he left his right hand on Sauce's chest too long. Now, I'm not saying I would have caught it, but a veteran NFL receiver with adequate skills gets his hands on that ball. Davis simply wasn't as good as he should have been. I'd say a good NFL receiver catches that ball 75% of the time, and makes a better play on the ball than Davis did 90+% of the time. 1 Quote
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