boater Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) I admit it... I once called Josh a turnover machine and said there was an issue there. I give myself a break though. It was said in the heat of the moment, right after he threw 3 interceptions to the Jets opening day last year. He wasn't very good in that game. But when you look at his body of work as a whole, his interception rate is around average. Edited June 11 by boater Quote
CincyBillsFan Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 14 hours ago, FireChans said: You forgot the Broncos game where we could not get to halftime without turning it over multiple times lol I think he was referring to Allen's TO's. In that game you had the Cook fumble on the first play and then had the ball bounce off Davis hands for an INT that should have been a first & goal. Edited June 11 by CincyBillsFan Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 11 Posted June 11 Did you know Josh Allen leads the league in fumbles since 2018? Quote
PBF81 Posted June 11 Posted June 11 Some perspective is necessary. Without Allen on our team, this team would have rivaled the worst of the drought era. He's had to overcome some of the worst OL play until this past season, not having any great RBs behind him, only situational types, never a McCoy, Thomas, Jackson, etc. His WRs with the exception of the now hated Diggs have been below average otherwise. He's had to overcome poor coaching at times. Despite all that he goes into a zone when it matters the most, the playoffs, unlike our fearless leader, and carries the team as far as it can go without much support in the playoffs. Imagine if some of those other pieces were consistently in place! 1 Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 12 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Some perspective is necessary. Without Allen on our team, this team would have rivaled the worst of the drought era. He's had to overcome some of the worst OL play until this past season, not having any great RBs behind him, only situational types, never a McCoy, Thomas, Jackson, etc. His WRs with the exception of the now hated Diggs have been below average otherwise. He's had to overcome poor coaching at times. Despite all that he goes into a zone when it matters the most, the playoffs, unlike our fearless leader, and carries the team as far as it can go without much support in the playoffs. Imagine if some of those other pieces were consistently in place! Has he ever been the best QB in our elimination games? I remember the 13 seconds game and he was 329 with 4 TDs. But Mahomes was 378 and 4 TDs also. Allen was great, but Mahomes matched him. 2019 Texans loss - Watson was better 2020 Chiefs loss - Mahomes was better 2021 Chiefs loss - Draw 2022 Bengals loss - Burrow was better 2023 Chiefs loss - Close, I’ll call it a draw due to drops by Bills WR’s. Edited June 11 by Buffalo_Stampede Quote
bigduke6 Posted June 11 Posted June 11 stats can lie either way for whomever is looking to push a point. we know JA17 is a baller, let the rest of them be ignorant and hate on him. its not a fight worth fighting. in the end its about wins and losses, and the NFL is the ultimate team sport. that being said, Lamar as MVP last season, with the stats he had, and the team he had around him, was one of the dumbest things ive ever seen in the NFL. Quote
H2o Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, FireChans said: it wasn’t Russ’s best game of the year, it was just one of Josh’s worst lol. You know the Broncos allowed 70 to the Dolphins like 4 weeks prior, right? Does Josh play against their defense? They would have never had the chance to take the lead if Josh didn’t give the football away over and over and over. Yeah, it was Russ' best game as far as how he managed it and completion percentage wise. Who cares what the Dolphins put up on them? It's completely irrelevant. The game and the way the chips fall change from week to week. It was also Dorsey's last game as OC. Did you know KC lost to Denver as well? The score was 24-9. In that game, Patrick Mahomes had 2 INT's, a lost fumble, and 0 TD's. What a terrible, turnover machine that guy is. Josh had 3 games total last year without a turnover. Only 3. You know who else only had 3 games total without a turnover last year? Patrick Mahomes. Josh had 22 total turnovers. Pat had 17 total turnovers. In a 17 game season, that's a difference of 1 turnover per 13.6 quarters played. That's 1 about every 3-1/2 games. Again, JA handed them a lead with under two to go. They blew it. Just like against the Eagles and just like against the Pats. Edited June 11 by H2o Quote
PBF81 Posted June 11 Posted June 11 37 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Has he ever been the best QB in our elimination games? I remember the 13 seconds game and he was 329 with 4 TDs. But Mahomes was 378 and 4 TDs also. Allen was great, but Mahomes matched him. 2019 Texans loss - Watson was better 2020 Chiefs loss - Mahomes was better 2021 Chiefs loss - Draw 2022 Bengals loss - Burrow was better 2023 Chiefs loss - Close, I’ll call it a draw due to drops by Bills WR’s. Well, you implicitly touched on a lot of things, that all support the point, but you seem to have missed the point. I discount 2019 and always have for reasons of fairness to Allen. Mahomes has had Reid, an offensive mastermind. Allen has never had anyone close. Point 2: Sure, 2021 was a draw. But Allen had Diggs, an average OL at best, no significant #2 WR after Diggs who did nothing. Mahomes had Hill and Kelce and a vastly superior OL. Point 3: Swap out Allen for any of our drought era QBs. Do you think we would have even made the playoffs much less lost every playoff game we did make if we happened to accidentally make one like we did in 2017. I don't see us even posting a winning season. Point 4: In the playoffs, name one other player on the team, on either side, that has stepped up with even the hint of consistency besides Allen or Davis. How about coaching, what did McD do in the playoffs that won us a game besides capitalize off of Jackson who chokes nearly as bad as Bledsoe did in the playoffs. And for the sake of comparison, put Allen on KC and Mahomes with McD here. Do you really think that it would have been any different for us? Quote
julian Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, Utah John said: We all think he SHOULD be but when voters consider him five years after his retirement they'll see no Lombardis (boy I hope I'm wrong about that, but that's how it is now), no All-Pros, no Pro Bowls, no MVPs. His stats will be very good but by then who knows how the league will have evolved, and maybe there will be a dozen QBs who have better stats. People remember Cam Newton (the closes comparison QB I can think of) but not nearly as impressively as people regarded Newton while he was playing. Hope for the best but prepare for disappointment. The NFL leader in total TDs will be a 1st ballot HOFer, and he does have pro bowls. Cam Newton ? lol.. he’s going to surpass Cam sometime this year after mid season on the career TD list, Cam is 22nd so no disrespect to Cam but he’s not in Allen’s stratosphere. Enjoy the ride and don’t solely focus on a championship, we’re witnessing one of the all time greats in his prime playing for our Bills, it’s crazy. Edited June 11 by julian 1 1 Quote
FireChans Posted June 11 Posted June 11 21 minutes ago, H2o said: Yeah, it was Russ' best game as far as how he managed it and completion percentage wise. Who cares what the Dolphins put up on them? It's completely irrelevant. The game and the way the chips fall change from week to week. It was also Dorsey's last game as OC. Did you know KC lost to Denver as well? The score was 24-9. In that game, Patrick Mahomes had 2 INT's, a lost fumble, and 0 TD's. What a terrible, turnover machine that guy is. Josh had 3 games total last year without a turnover. Only 3. You know who else only had 3 games total without a turnover last year? Patrick Mahomes. Josh had 22 total turnovers. Pat had 17 total turnovers. In a 17 game season, that's a difference of 1 turnover per 13.6 quarters played. That's 1 about every 3-1/2 games. Again, JA handed them a lead with under two to go. They blew it. Just like against the Eagles and just like against the Pats. Patrick Mahomes had a bad game against them. Probably cost his team the game. So did Josh. It’s very funny that we can admit these things for other QB’s but not our golden boy. Josh is allowed to have bad games and still be one of the best QB’s in football. 1 1 Quote
H2o Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 6 minutes ago, FireChans said: Patrick Mahomes had a bad game against them. Probably cost his team the game. So did Josh. It’s very funny that we can admit these things for other QB’s but not our golden boy. Josh is allowed to have bad games and still be one of the best QB’s in football. I didn't say it was not a bad game. I'm not even talking about or refusing to acknowledge what happened prior to the last drive. What I said is he handed his team a lead with under 2 minutes to play, despite the bad game. He did his job when it mattered most. The defense and ST's blew it after that. Do I need to put it in coloring book form for you? Edited June 11 by H2o Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 21 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Well, you implicitly touched on a lot of things, that all support the point, but you seem to have missed the point. I discount 2019 and always have for reasons of fairness to Allen. Mahomes has had Reid, an offensive mastermind. Allen has never had anyone close. Point 2: Sure, 2021 was a draw. But Allen had Diggs, an average OL at best, no significant #2 WR after Diggs who did nothing. Mahomes had Hill and Kelce and a vastly superior OL. Point 3: Swap out Allen for any of our drought era QBs. Do you think we would have even made the playoffs much less lost every playoff game we did make if we happened to accidentally make one like we did in 2017. I don't see us even posting a winning season. Point 4: In the playoffs, name one other player on the team, on either side, that has stepped up with even the hint of consistency besides Allen or Davis. How about coaching, what did McD do in the playoffs that won us a game besides capitalize off of Jackson who chokes nearly as bad as Bledsoe did in the playoffs. And for the sake of comparison, put Allen on KC and Mahomes with McD here. Do you really think that it would have been any different for us? You make a lot of excuses for Allen not being the best QB in the NFL instead of just accepting the fact he’s not the best QB in the NFL. Reid is a great head coach. One of the best offensive coaches in the history of the league but he never won a Super Bowl until he had the best QB in the league. Allen is great. McDermott is good. It’s a combination that can win a Super Bowl but like all other teams that win just 1, they need some luck also. It just hasn’t happened. I don’t think we’ve had the type of players on defense you need to win championships. I still don’t think we have them. It’s a harsh reality. McDermott is to blame for that. It’s his team. He built it. Edited June 11 by Buffalo_Stampede 1 1 Quote
PBF81 Posted June 11 Posted June 11 7 minutes ago, julian said: The NFL leader in total TDs will be a 1st ballot HOFer, and he does have pro bowls. Cam Newton ? lol.. he’s going to surpass Cam sometime this year after mid season on the career TD list, Cam is 22nd so no disrespect to Cam but he’s not in Allen’s stratosphere. Enjoy the ride and don’t solely focus on a championship, we’re witnessing one of the all time greats in his prime playing for our Bills, it’s crazy. The nonsense about Newton I don't get. He posted one (1) above-average passing season in a season where the Panthers had one of if not the easiest schedule in the modern history of the game. The rest of his time in the NFL his aggregate numbers were an incredibly pedestrian 159 TDs/ 113 INTs (1.4-to-1), 1.2 TDs/game, about a 60% compl. %, an 83.4 Rating, and wasn't particularly great in the playoffs where he had plenty of help from the rest of his team, unlike Allen. 1 Quote
FireChans Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 7 minutes ago, H2o said: I didn't say it was not a bad game. I'm not even talking about or refusing to acknowledge what happened prior to the last drive. What I said is he handed his team a lead with under 2 minutes to play, despite the bad game. He did his job when it mattered most. The defense and ST's blew it after that. Do I need to put it in coloring book form for you? There is no highly paid QB that can have a 3+ TO game that does not shoulder a large amount of blame for a loss. It’s very easy to be consistent here. Some folks struggle, and I’m not sure why. On a neutral team, if a QB plays bad, turns it over a lot and a team loses, they are a big reason why they lost. This is obvious. If the Jags didn’t win against the Chargers in that playoff game, Trevor Lawrence would DESERVEDLY be blamed for turning it over 4 times, regardless of making it close at the end. The whole 60 minutes matter. Only when it comes to Josh Allen do folks twist themselves into knots about how it really wasn’t his fault. If Josh doesn’t turn it over before half with a horrific decision, the Broncos score 3 less points and can’t win the game on a field goal. The whole game changes. These things matter. We can admit when Mahomes has horrible games. He lost them the Broncos game. He lost the Raiders game on Christmas with turnovers. Josh cost us the Broncos game and the Jets game. It’s elementary stuff. Edited June 11 by FireChans Quote
julian Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 11 minutes ago, PBF81 said: The nonsense about Newton I don't get. He posted one (1) above-average passing season in a season where the Panthers had one of if not the easiest schedule in the modern history of the game. The rest of his time in the NFL his aggregate numbers were an incredibly pedestrian 159 TDs/ 113 INTs (1.4-to-1), 1.2 TDs/game, about a 60% compl. %, an 83.4 Rating, and wasn't particularly great in the playoffs where he had plenty of help from the rest of his team, unlike Allen. Yeah it’s always been a insulting comparison, Allen is what everyone thought Cam would be, but like you said Cam isn’t close when it comes to passing the ball and to be honest, Allen is a much better runner in the open field. Edited June 11 by julian 1 1 Quote
PBF81 Posted June 11 Posted June 11 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: You make a lot of excuses for Allen not being the best QB in the NFL instead of just accepting the fact he’s not the best QB in the NFL. You've taken this waaaay outside the context of my post & points. Not much I can do about that. 15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Reid is a great head coach. One of the best offensive coaches in the history of the league but he never won a Super Bowl until he had the best QB in the league. OK, we're still way out of context here, but he went to 4 conference championships in his first six seasons, 1 Super Bowl, all with an incredibly average QB like McNabb. In short, he came a lot closer more often than anyone else with comparable talent at QB. 15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Allen is great. McDermott is good. It’s a combination that can win a Super Bowl but like all other teams that win just 1, they need some luck also. It just hasn’t happened. We're never going to win a Super Bowl with McDefense at the helm. This season is going to be incredibly revealing. It will be interesting to see how many are ready to throw the towel in on him by season's end. He's held us up come playoffs. He never outcoaches anyone in the playoffs. He's done almost nothing to play better in the playoffs than we play during the season. Getting back to the point, if Allen doesn't shine in the playoffs and carry McDefense's water, we have zero shot at winning. Plain and simple. McDefense never gets anyone to step up, Allen takes it upon himself, or as you imply, it doesn't happen and we have zero chance. There's not one playoff game that we were in and won that Allen played a poor game, not one. Of the ones we've one, besides Allen and Davis, no one has stepped up consistently. 15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: I don’t think we’ve had the type of players on defense you need to win championships. I still don’t think we have them. It’s a harsh reality. McDermott is to blame for that. It’s his team. He built it. Our defense is fine overall. On D the total is greater than the sum of the parts, ... except in the playoffs where the total is less than the sum of the parts. That's another clue. This will be the season that more people catch on. Edited June 11 by PBF81 Quote
H2o Posted June 11 Posted June 11 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: There is no highly paid QB that can have a 3+ TO game that does not shoulder a large amount of blame for a loss. It’s very easy to be consistent here. Some folks struggle, and I’m not sure why. On a neutral team, if a QB plays bad, turns it over a lot and a team loses, they are a big reason why they lost. This is obvious. If the Jags didn’t win against the Chargers in that playoff game, Trevor Lawrence would DESERVEDLY be blamed for turning it over 4 times, regardless of making it close at the end. The whole 60 minutes matter. Only when it comes to Josh Allen do folks twist themselves into knots about how it really wasn’t his fault. If Josh doesn’t turn it over before half with a horrific decision, the Broncos score 3 less points and can’t win the game on a field goal. The whole game changes. These things matter. We can admit when Mahomes has horrible games. He lost them the Broncos game. He lost the Raiders game on Christmas with turnovers. Josh cost us the Broncos game and the Jets game. It’s elementary stuff. I swear my guy, it's like every part of what I'm trying to tell you is juking your braincells like Barry Sanders in his prime. No one is twisting anything. The discussion of his OVERALL performance in that game is not even what I'm talking about. None of what I am talking about involves anything that happened prior to. What I AM talking about is the scenario below. Josh giving his team a lead, with under two to play, and this is how it went. I have highlighted some things for you, but it probably still won't help get the point across. 2nd & Goal at DEN 6 (1:55 - 4th) (Shotgun) J.Allen scrambles left tackle for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.T.Bass extra point is GOOD, Center-R.Ferguson, Holder-S.Martin. After the Bass EP, the score is 22-21. The defense and ST then did this: 1st & 10 at DEN 25 (1:55 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short middle to S.Perine to DEN 43 for 18 yards (C.Lewis; T.Rapp). BUF-C.Lewis was injured during the play. C.Lewis walks off. (1:39 - 4th) Timeout #1 by BUF at 01:39. 1st & 10 at DEN 43 (1:39 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass incomplete short left to C.Sutton. Receiver and coverage at DEN 47. 2nd & 10 at DEN 43 (1:36 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson scrambles up the middle to DEN 47 for 4 yards (D.Williams). 3rd & 6 at DEN 47 (1:09 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short right to S.Perine to BUF 45 for 8 yards (D.Williams). 1st & 10 at BUF 45 (0:47 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short right to A.Trautman to BUF 39 for 6 yards (D.Hamlin). (0:40 - 4th) Timeout #2 by DEN at 00:40. 2nd & 4 at BUF 39 (0:40 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson sacked at BUF 45 for -6 yards (sack split by A.Epenesa and T.Rapp). (0:35 - 4th) Timeout #3 by DEN at 00:35. 3rd & 10 at BUF 45 (0:35 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass incomplete deep left to J.Jeudy [A.Epenesa]. PENALTY on BUF-Ta.Johnson, Defensive Pass Interference, 28 yards, enforced at BUF 45 - No Play. 1st & 10 at BUF 17 (0:29 - 4th) R.Wilson kneels to BUF 19 for -2 yards. (0:25 - 4th) Timeout #2 by BUF at 00:25. 2nd & 12 at BUF 19 (0:25 - 4th) R.Wilson kneels to BUF 20 for -1 yards. (0:24 - 4th) Timeout #3 by BUF at 00:24. 3rd & 13 at BUF 20 (0:24 - 4th) R.Wilson kneels to BUF 23 for -3 yards. 4th & 16 at BUF 23 (0:07 - 4th) W.Lutz 41 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right, Center-M.Fraboni, Holder-R.Dixon. PENALTY on BUF, Defensive Too Many Men on Field, 5 yards, enforced at BUF 23 - No Play. 4th & 11 at BUF 18 (0:00 - 4th) W.Lutz 36 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-M.Fraboni, Holder-R.Dixon. 1 Quote
FireChans Posted June 11 Posted June 11 2 minutes ago, H2o said: I swear my guy, it's like every part of what I'm trying to tell you is juking your braincells like Barry Sanders in his prime. No one is twisting anything. The discussion of his OVERALL performance in that game is not even what I'm talking about. None of what I am talking about involves anything that happened prior to. What I AM talking about is the scenario below. Josh giving his team a lead, with under two to play, and this is how it went. I have highlighted some things for you, but it probably still won't help get the point across. 2nd & Goal at DEN 6 (1:55 - 4th) (Shotgun) J.Allen scrambles left tackle for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.T.Bass extra point is GOOD, Center-R.Ferguson, Holder-S.Martin. After the Bass EP, the score is 22-21. The defense and ST then did this: 1st & 10 at DEN 25 (1:55 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short middle to S.Perine to DEN 43 for 18 yards (C.Lewis; T.Rapp). BUF-C.Lewis was injured during the play. C.Lewis walks off. (1:39 - 4th) Timeout #1 by BUF at 01:39. 1st & 10 at DEN 43 (1:39 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass incomplete short left to C.Sutton. Receiver and coverage at DEN 47. 2nd & 10 at DEN 43 (1:36 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson scrambles up the middle to DEN 47 for 4 yards (D.Williams). 3rd & 6 at DEN 47 (1:09 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short right to S.Perine to BUF 45 for 8 yards (D.Williams). 1st & 10 at BUF 45 (0:47 - 4th) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Wilson pass short right to A.Trautman to BUF 39 for 6 yards (D.Hamlin). (0:40 - 4th) Timeout #2 by DEN at 00:40. 2nd & 4 at BUF 39 (0:40 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson sacked at BUF 45 for -6 yards (sack split by A.Epenesa and T.Rapp). (0:35 - 4th) Timeout #3 by DEN at 00:35. 3rd & 10 at BUF 45 (0:35 - 4th) (Shotgun) R.Wilson pass incomplete deep left to J.Jeudy [A.Epenesa]. PENALTY on BUF-Ta.Johnson, Defensive Pass Interference, 28 yards, enforced at BUF 45 - No Play. 1st & 10 at BUF 17 (0:29 - 4th) R.Wilson kneels to BUF 19 for -2 yards. (0:25 - 4th) Timeout #2 by BUF at 00:25. 2nd & 12 at BUF 19 (0:25 - 4th) R.Wilson kneels to BUF 20 for -1 yards. (0:24 - 4th) Timeout #3 by BUF at 00:24. 3rd & 13 at BUF 20 (0:24 - 4th) R.Wilson kneels to BUF 23 for -3 yards. 4th & 16 at BUF 23 (0:07 - 4th) W.Lutz 41 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right, Center-M.Fraboni, Holder-R.Dixon. PENALTY on BUF, Defensive Too Many Men on Field, 5 yards, enforced at BUF 23 - No Play. 4th & 11 at BUF 18 (0:00 - 4th) W.Lutz 36 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-M.Fraboni, Holder-R.Dixon. Buddy, I know what happened at the end of the game lol. It doesn’t change the facts that any QB with 3+ TO’s in ANY loss, regardless of “getting the lead at the end,” is largely at fault for the loss. Period. Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted June 11 Posted June 11 Jesus guys... Can't we agree McDermott's late game defense sucks AND Allen played horribly in a few games that the defense gave away - Jets and Broncos. He was brilliant in the Eagles game but McDermott's defense lost the game twice - I will be fair in that it took a miraculous kick to tie the game though. Quote
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 11 Posted June 11 17 minutes ago, PBF81 said: You've taken this waaaay outside the context of my post & points. Not much I can do about that. OK, we're still way out of context here, but he went to 4 conference championships in his first six seasons, 1 Super Bowl, all with an incredibly average QB like McNabb. In short, he came a lot closer more often than anyone else with comparable talent at QB. We're never going to win a Super Bowl with McDefense at the helm. This season is going to be incredibly revealing. It will be interesting to see how many are ready to throw the towel in on him by season's end. He's held us up come playoffs. He never outcoaches anyone in the playoffs. He's done almost nothing to play better in the playoffs than we play during the season. Getting back to the point, if Allen doesn't shine in the playoffs and carry McDefense's water, we have zero shot at winning. Plain and simple. McDefense never gets anyone to step up, Allen takes it upon himself, or as you imply, it doesn't happen and we have zero chance. There's not one playoff game that we were in and won that Allen played a poor game, not one. Of the ones we've one, besides Allen and Davis, no one has stepped up consistently. Our defense is fine overall. On D the total is greater than the sum of the parts, ... except in the playoffs where the total is less than the sum of the parts. That's another clue. This will be the season that more people catch on. We find out a lot about both McDermott and Allen this year. 1 Quote
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