Final WRs on Roster

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

You think Hollins will come back to the PS?  I think the dude will get paid to play somewhere else.  Hes worthy of a roster spot in the NFL for ST alone.  Don't think he makes his way back to PS if he is cut.  3.6k snaps over 6 years is nothing to thumb your nose at.  

 

I don't see a team adding him to their roster after final cutdowns primarily to play STs.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

21 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I don't see a team adding him to their roster after final cutdowns primarily to play STs.  

 

The Texans just traded for Skowronek.  Didn't give up much, but to me that indicates there's a market for a primary ST WR.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

38 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

You think Hollins will come back to the PS?  I think the dude will get paid to play somewhere else.  Hes worthy of a roster spot in the NFL for ST alone.  Don't think he makes his way back to PS if he is cut.  3.6k snaps over 6 years is nothing to thumb your nose at.  

 

I tend to agree with Matakevich (a captain) and neal gone.  You want a vet in the special teams meetings.  Figure Hollins replaces sherfield, Ulofoshio or Morrow works into that unit to join spector and gilliam as core STers.  Hardy has a chance to stick as a returner - so the other gunner is probably a different safety/corner.  

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

The Texans just traded for Skowronek.  Didn't give up much, but to me that indicates there's a market for a primary ST WR.  

 

Early in the season like the Texans did?  Sure.  On the cusp of the season?  I can't see it.  But you never know.

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I don't see a team adding him to their roster after final cutdowns primarily to play STs.  

 

If you're a WR being added to another teams 53 after being cut, it's almost always bottom of the depth chart to fill out the roster and play Special Teams.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

If you're a WR being added to another teams 53 after being cut, it's almost always bottom of the depth chart to fill out the roster and play Special Teams.

 

So would you keep Hollins on the 53 as mostly a ST'er if there are 5 better WRs?  Would you make an extra roster spot for him?

[Beck Water]

On 6/9/2024 at 3:27 AM, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Daequan Hardy was almost exclusively Drafted as a Kick Returner. And if you're arguing lack of production as a reason to not keep Hollins, I haven't the foggiest how you can say Hamler should be a bigger consideration.

 

Hollins had 690 yards two seasons ago. Yes, last season, it was 251. But he was also playing on a PUTRID Falcons passing offense with a terrible QB and was hurt 4 games.

 

You point to Hollins only going over 251 once. But Hamler? He hasn't had 251 yards total *combined* in the last 3 seasons. He didn't play a single snap last season, put up 165 yards in 2022, 74 yards in 2021, and 381 yards in 2020. Hell, if you combine ALL of Hamler's yardage since entering the league in 2020 - it's less than what Hollins did in 2022 alone.

 

Mack Hollins was signed within the first couple days of Free Agency with a specific role in mind. He's often one of the first names Beane brings up when talking about the WR core. I think if you're hoping for Mack Hollins to be cut (for whatever reason), you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

Hamler is a "never was" at this point: a former mid-2nd round pick who had a promising rookie year, then had his career thoroughly derailed by injuries.

 

First, IR with a hammy late his rookie year.  Then, a torn ACL Week 3 of his 2nd year.  Then, another hammy in Dec of his 3rd year, a torn pec in the off-season, and finally pericarditis.

 

The talent level is real, but so too is the injury history.  It would be kind of foolish IMHO to count on Hamler for, well, anything.  

 

Ty Johnson had 8 returns for 161 yds last year.  Career, 22 returns for 409 yards.  As you note, he has Daequan Hardy to push him.  So it's not quite true that the Bills have no kick returners on the roster, thus should take a flyer on a talented former 2nd round pick who's managed to be available 23 out of 51 professional games.

 

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

So would you keep Hollins on the 53 as mostly a ST'er if there are 5 better WRs?  Would you make an extra roster spot for him?

 

Whether I would or wouldn't do isn't the real issue here. 

To know what a GM will do, look at what a GM has done.  Beane has made roster spots for Andre Roberts, Jake Kumerow, and Trent Sherfield. 

 

Were there better WR Beane could have kept?  Arguably, at least some of those years.

 

Beane has been explicit: if you're the #5 or #6 receiver on the Bills, you better play ST.

Edited June 10 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

On 6/7/2024 at 2:18 PM, Warriorspikes51 said:

I'm expecting there to be less of an actual "pecking order" this year if you will. 

Especially with "everybody is gonna eat" comments

 

I'd say at the moment there are basically groups

On field the most, moved around
Samuel

Shakir

Coleman

 

WR 3-4 in various packages / alternate by committee 
MVS
Claypool

Hollins 

Battle to make roster
Hamler
Shavers
Shorter
Everyone else 

 

I think that's a pretty good take.

 

One wild card is, depending on how well and how fast Coleman adapts, I could see MVS or (if he sheds the "poison" label and makes the team) Claypool getting more snaps early on.  

 

If they just play nuts, I could also see Shavers or Shorter outplaying Hollins, but there would have to be a high degree of confidence there.  They had the ST chops coming into the league, though.

[ColoradoBills]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

To know what a GM will do, look at what a GM has done.  Beane has made roster spots for Andre Roberts, Jake Kumerow, and Trent Sherfield. 

 

Were there better WR Beane could have kept?  Arguably, at least some of those years.

 

Beane has been explicit: if you're the #5 or #6 receiver on the Bills, you better play ST.

 

Agree.  But one thing I have been considering is IF the Bills keep 6 WRs (and I think so) keeping Hollins for ST means he dresses every Sunday.

Good chance the 6th WR may not dress every week.  I'm not sure if McDermott and Beane would demand that the 6th be good at STs.

He may be kept for WR duties in case of injury to any of the top 4.

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

Agree.  But one thing I have been considering is IF the Bills keep 6 WRs (and I think so) keeping Hollins for ST means he dresses every Sunday.

Good chance the 6th WR may not dress every week.  I'm not sure if McDermott and Beane would demand that the 6th be good at STs.

He may be kept for WR duties in case of injury to any of the top 4.

 

So on the same theme of "to know what a GM will do, look at what he has done" theme:  Beane has typically kept more at a position when it is uncertain, or when there are a larger number of promising players who might get sniped by other teams.

 

DE comes to mind.

 

One unheralded look-out is: how do the Bills feel about the TE position?  They had 3 last season. 

Does that change, especially if Brady is interested in 2 TE sets?  How do they feel about Zach Davidson (on IR last season) or Tre McKitty?

 

I can't get excited about either based on their pedigree, but the Bills may be keeping them around for a reason.
 

I don't view it as a lock that the Bills keep 6 WR.  I think the more likely position to gain an extra body count is RB and CB though.

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I don't view it as a lock that the Bills keep 6 WR.  I think the more likely position to gain an extra body count is RB and CB though.

 

Not a lock but I believe it will be heavily discussed.  I see 3 RBs plus Gilliam and the 4th on PS.  Extra DB is also a possibility, I agree.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

Whether I would or wouldn't do isn't the real issue here. 

To know what a GM will do, look at what a GM has done.  Beane has made roster spots for Andre Roberts, Jake Kumerow, and Trent Sherfield. 

 

Were there better WR Beane could have kept?  Arguably, at least some of those years.

 

Beane has been explicit: if you're the #5 or #6 receiver on the Bills, you better play ST.

 

I'd argue that Roberts' return skills made him worth keeping.  I didn't realize that Sherfield played mostly on STs, which would explain his paltry production as a WR, but I'd be hard-pressed to name the receiver that was let-go who would have been significantly better in the offense and also be able to play STs.  And Kumerow started-off on the PS and was shuttled back and forth mostly, which is something they could do with Hollins. 

 

Which brings me back to whether Hollins is worth enough as a STer to supplant a guy who can give you 500-600 (or more) yards at WR like Claypool or MVS, assuming Coleman, Samuel and Shakir are locks?  With the understanding that they'll probably just be keeping 5 WRs like they usually do.

Edited June 11 by Doc

[YattaOkasan]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I'd argue that Roberts' return skills made him worth keeping.  I didn't realize that Sherfield played mostly on STs, which would explain his paltry production as a WR, but I'd be hard-pressed to name the receiver that was let-go who would have been significantly better in the offense and also be able to play STs.  And Kumerow started-off on the PS and was shuttled back and forth mostly, which is something they could do with Hollins. 

 

Which brings me back to whether Hollins is worth enough as a STer to supplant a guy who can give you 500-600 (or more) yards at WR like Claypool or MVS, assuming Coleman, Samuel and Shakir are locks?  With the understanding that they'll probably just be keeping 5 WRs like they usually do.

You think WR5/6 is getting 600 yards?  Yeah he’s not as valuable as a 600 yard receiver but those are WR3/4 numbers.  
 

And you really don’t think Mack Hollins would get vet minimum pay to be on the bottom of a 53 man roster?  OJ Howard is the relevant example right?  but even he made a 53 man roster after we cut him. And I think Howard had less of track record than Hollins. 

Edited June 11 by YattaOkasan

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Not a lock but I believe it will be heavily discussed.  I see 3 RBs plus Gilliam and the 4th on PS.  Extra DB is also a possibility, I agree.

 

The extra CB  thing is that Beane drafted Daequan Hardy specifically for his return chops.  He's a nickel, and the Bills could use a backup nickel, but from reading his draft profile I would expect him to need some development to be able to play nickel at (don't hurt me, he's the back up for a reason) the level of Cam Lewis.

 

So if they decide he's their punt returner or kickoff returner, they need to carry an extra CB (unless Hardy develops phenomenally, but I wouldn't bet on that)

 

The extra RB thing - so last year we kept 3 + Gilliam, and with all the ST guys we moved on from I'm thinking Gilliam stays.  Cook and Ray Davis seem like locks.  But then?  Ty Johnson returned some kickoffs last season, is that how we see him?  How do they see Darrynton Evans?  He returned kicks for Tennessee and played a lot of ST for Miami.  

[Beck Water]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I'd argue that Roberts' return skills made him worth keeping.  I didn't realize that Sherfield played mostly on STs, which would explain his paltry production as a WR, but I'd be hard-pressed to name the receiver that was let-go who would have been significantly better in the offense and also be able to play STs.  And Kumerow started-off on the PS and was shuttled back and forth mostly, which is something they could do with Hollins. 

 

Which brings me back to whether Hollins is worth enough as a STer to supplant a guy who can give you 500-600 (or more) yards at WR like Claypool or MVS, assuming Coleman, Samuel and Shakir are locks?  With the understanding that they'll probably just be keeping 5 WRs like they usually do.

 

I'm seeing a lot of inappropriate analogies in this thread (Hollins to OJ Howard is one).  

 

What you're saying about Kumerow, and what you're saying about Hollins, are really apples to oranges situations. 

Kumerow was an UDFA who kicked around the league on practice squads and played some WR for GB.  When GB cut him, the Bills signed him to their PS for 2020.  And yes, the Bills did use him as a "free elevation" that year for 3 games before signing him, then waiving him when Brown came off IR (and the Saints promptly signed him).  But after he'd established himself as a ST stalwart in 2021 Bills training camp, he stayed on the team.  No Practice Squad for Kume from then on.  He missed games only when injured.

Hollins was a 4th round draft pick for the Eagles.  He's never been a practice squad guy, and established himself as a ST stalwart right off the bat, except for the year he was LVR's #2 WR where he mostly played offense.  He's been a ST captain (or an offensive captain!) pretty much every where he's played, apparently.  This is not a guy you yo-yo on and off the practice squad like an UDFA who has never established himself as a guy who can play on ST or offense.   It's just a different situation than 2020 Kumerow. 

 

And yeah, about those 600 yds "like Claypool", Claypool hasn't contributed 600+ yds since 2021; he contributed 300+ to Pitt before they got fed up in 2022 and shipped him to Chicago.  In 2022, guess who contributed 57 receptions and 690 yds?  Mack Hollins, that's who.

So your question should be, is a guy like Hollins who has shown he can be productive as a WR more recently than Claypool, and can also play ST, worth keeping over a headcase who may or may not have changed state and who hasn't contributed as much as recently?

[BillsFanForever19]

10 hours ago, Doc said:

 

So would you keep Hollins on the 53 as mostly a ST'er if there are 5 better WRs?  Would you make an extra roster spot for him?

 

I don't see us keeping just 5 this season. That was an anomaly predicated on us having an abundance of Defensive Lineman to keep. That's not an issue this season.

 

Every other season under McDermott and Beane, we've either kept 6 or 7. I see the number being 6 this year.

 

And yes, with the amount of long time core Special Teamers we've lost this year (Tyler Matakevitch, Siran Neal, Dane Jackson, Tyrel Dodson, and more) - I would keep him for Special Teams alone. And it's a massive reason why he was targeted and acquired so quickly in FA by Beane. But he brings more than just that.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

I don't see us keeping just 5 this season. That was an anomaly predicated on us having an abundance of Defensive Lineman to keep. That's not an issue this season.

 

Every other season under McDermott and Beane, we've either kept 6 or 7. I see the number being 6 this year.

 

And yes, with the amount of long time core Special Teamers we've lost this year (Tyler Matakevitch, Siran Neal, Dane Jackson, Tyrel Dodson, and more) - I would keep him for Special Teams alone. And it's a massive reason why he was targeted and acquired so quickly in FA by Beane. But he brings more than just that.

 

If they keep 6 then Hollins makes it no question about it.  Unless someone unexpected shines. 

[SoCal Deek]

Reading all of this back and forth debate on the bottom of our WR room causes me to lend some credence to the opinion that receivers may in fact be…..a dime a dozen.