GoBills808 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 7 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: No, not seriously because I never said that. I'm starting to wonder if you're intentionally misconstruing & misrepresenting what I've written. This is literally what you wrote 3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said: he had roughly the 9th best season for a QB last year never mind he was 1st in value over avg, 1st in CPOE, 3rd in success%, 1st by a mile in ELO, 3rd in EPA, 2nd in win%added @FireChanscome get your boy he's lost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 So we know GoBills808 and some others think McD is a failure as a head coach and ought to be fired. On their side of the fence is Tyler Dunne and his largely anonymous crew of malcontents. I don’t think McD is a failure and should be fired. On this side of the fence are some insightful mafiosos like FireChans, the Bills locker room, and a couple of current/future Hall of Fame coaches. I like where I’m sitting... The Bills players rated their Head Coach an “A” in the most recent NFLPA poll. Only three head coaches received higher (A+) ratings. Bill Cowher: “I love Sean McDermott… [He] has done an incredible job putting that team together… You can see his stamp on this football team in terms of playing tough, smart football… I’m really impressed with Sean McDermott and what he’s been able to do there.” Andy Reid: “He’s one of the best coaches that’s ever coached the game.” GoBills808, maybe you should join us on this side. It's sunnier here. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 10 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: So we know GoBills808 and some others think McD is a failure as a head coach and ought to be fired. On their side of the fence is Tyler Dunne and his largely anonymous crew of malcontents. I don’t think McD is a failure and should be fired. On this side of the fence are some insightful mafiosos like FireChans, the Bills locker room, and a couple of current/future Hall of Fame coaches. I like where I’m sitting... The Bills players rated their Head Coach an “A” in the most recent NFLPA poll. Only three head coaches received higher (A+) ratings. Bill Cowher: “I love Sean McDermott… [He] has done an incredible job putting that team together… You can see his stamp on this football team in terms of playing tough, smart football… I’m really impressed with Sean McDermott and what he’s been able to do there.” Andy Reid: “He’s one of the best coaches that’s ever coached the game.” GoBills808, maybe you should join us on this side. It's sunnier here. Brother, while I appreciate the call out, I am so far from the sun, I've turned into a Morlock. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: This is literally what you wrote never mind he was 1st in value over avg, 1st in CPOE, 3rd in success%, 1st by a mile in ELO, 3rd in EPA, 2nd in win%added @FireChanscome get your boy he's lost Here's literally what I wrote: "Josh is a unicorn and not all head coaches have a guy of that calibre. But there are guys lining up under center that also play the game pretty well. Josh was 16th in passer rating last year, 3rd in QBR. If you average that out, he had roughly the 9th best season for a QB last year." Contrary to what you wrote, I never said he was the 9th best QB in the league nor do I believe that. My considerable appreciation for Josh is clear in previous posts in this thread as well as others. Statistically, he underperformed this past year versus his talent/potential partially because Beane hasn't provided him with a quality supporting cast. Again, I wonder about ad hominem attacks. Why do you need to call me FireChan's "boy" and say I'm "lost?" I disagree with your evaluations but I don't disrespect you like that. Your insults don't add value to the board. They don't add any strength to your arguments. They're not funny. So I don't get the point. Maybe you can explain. As I recently posted somewhere else... We're all Bills fans. We've all suffered together through 1-win seasons, four SB losses, the Home Run Throwback, a 17-year drought, 13-seconds, and other calamities. Life throws enough sh*t at us. Why do we need to throw sh*t at each other? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBob806 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 7 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said: I didn't know 3 teams could all be better than the SB winner! I think you misunderstood my post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 Watching the Celtics on this run, it has occurred to me that they had to EARN this year, by having the same kinds of repetitive failures as the Bills have had. They got scars along the way, but without those hardships and disappointments, they wouldn't be where they are right now. They didn't have a consistent nemesis like the Bills have had - but other teams have. Jordan's Bulls, Manning's Colts. The question is, will the Bills' previous failures harden them, and make them more determined? Or will they wilt under the weight of their history? I'd go for "wilting" if not for Josh Allen. Allen is among the toughest QB's I've ever seen, physically and mentally. He will lead this team over the KC hump, and to a title. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said: Here's literally what I wrote: "Josh is a unicorn and not all head coaches have a guy of that calibre. But there are guys lining up under center that also play the game pretty well. Josh was 16th in passer rating last year, 3rd in QBR. If you average that out, he had roughly the 9th best season for a QB last year." Contrary to what you wrote, I never said he was the 9th best QB in the league nor do I believe that. My considerable appreciation for Josh is clear in previous posts in this thread as well as others. Statistically, he underperformed this past year versus his talent/potential partially because Beane hasn't provided him with a quality supporting cast. Again, I wonder about ad hominem attacks. Why do you need to call me FireChan's "boy" and say I'm "lost?" I disagree with your evaluations but I don't disrespect you like that. Your insults don't add value to the board. They don't add any strength to your arguments. They're not funny. So I don't get the point. Maybe you can explain. As I recently posted somewhere else... We're all Bills fans. We've all suffered together through 1-win seasons, four SB losses, the Home Run Throwback, a 17-year drought, 13-seconds, and other calamities. Life throws enough sh*t at us. Why do we need to throw sh*t at each other? ... 6 hours ago, hondo in seattle said: If you average that out, he had roughly the 9th best season for a QB last year. 5 hours ago, GoBills808 said: You think Allen was the 9th best QB in the league last year? Seriously? 2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said: No, not seriously because I never said that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, GoBills808 said: ... I think it's amusing in a twisted kind of way but I'm not sure why you find this hard to understand unless it's an intentional misunderstanding. An actor can be phenomenal at acting but still get up on stage and deliver a bad performance. Joey Chestnut might be the world's best hot dog eater but can still have a bad day/month/season eating hot dogs. James Bond might be a other-worldly lover but still suffer an evening that a blue pill might have helped. Sometimes the best guys don't deliver the best performances. Josh is a great QB but didn't deliver a Top Two performance last year. That's simply what the stats say. He wasn't Top Two in the most popular rating systems (btw, where he averaged 9th - 9th is not what I ranked him). He wasn't Top Two in key performance indicators like Passing Yards, Passing TDs, or Ints. In terms of talent, he's Top Two. In terms of last season's performance, he was not. I don't blame that on Josh as much as I blame it on Beane. Josh needs better talent around him. And that's why if we're going to upgrade OBD somewhere, I'd start with Beane. But I don't think it's time yet to pull that plug. Edited June 14 by hondo in seattle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 9 hours ago, GoBills808 said: So McDermott developed all those guys but Oliver's failure belongs to Beane? How does this even make sense Beane found Allen. What's McDermott's equivalent success? That’s an interesting question. What did McDermott do in Buffalo before Beane got there? He drafted Tre White, Zay Jones, Dion Dawkins, and Matt Milano while adding an extra first round pick for the next season in the process knowing that they’d need all the extra ammo they could get to draft a QB the following season. Then he took a bad roster and a bad QB to the playoffs for the first time in 17 seasons. Beane picked Allen, presumably with a lot of input from McDermott after Mayfield and Darnold had already been taken. Allen, Rosen, and Lamar were the three left. Basically, he/they were smart enough not to take Josh Rosen. And let’s not pretend that Josh just walked on the field and started balling. He had to be developed over three plus years. Since then, Beane (and McDermott) has mostly drafted average players. McDermott has proven since his Carolina days that he can develop talented rookies into difference makers on defense. Beane has whiffed on them in the draft. It’s not like Basham and Edmunds got better after they left. They were mediocre guys who were way over drafted. If Brian Burns or Montez Sweat was on the defensive line instead of Oliver, things would be very different. Rousseau is fine and might get 10 sacks one day, but he’s never going to be Maxx Crosby. All things considered, I’m taking McDermott’s resume over Beane’s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 10 hours ago, GoBills808 said: Look at the comment above this one^^ You have a guy who legitimately blames the GM for players losing one-on-one battles in the playoffs I give up. If this is truly your take there is no scenario where we can find fault w coaching. Yes. Beane’s given big contracts to Allen, Dawkins, Oliver, Miller, and Diggs. Allen was great. Oliver didn’t do a damn thing. Neither did Miller. Diggs was terrible, and Dawkins got worked on the biggest play of the season. The big money guys on the other side dominated them. Kelce had 2 TDs, Mahomes was Mahomes, and Chris Jones did something that can’t be coached when he drove Dawkins into Josh’s lap. That game wasn’t about Xs and Os. It was about Kansas City’s Joes kicking Buffalo’s JImmies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 23 minutes ago, Billl said: That game wasn’t about Xs and Os. It was about Kansas City’s Joes kicking Buffalo’s JImmies. There are zero circumstances where an offense racks up 8.5 yards per play and it has nothing to do with Xs and Os on defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 45 minutes ago, HappyDays said: There are zero circumstances where an offense racks up 8.5 yards per play and it has nothing to do with Xs and Os on defense. Known Chiefs troll disagreeing w you=argument won 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey152 Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 20 hours ago, hondo in seattle said: Josh is a unicorn and not all head coaches have a guy of that calibre. But there are guys lining up under center that also play the game pretty well. Josh was 16th in passer rating last year, 3rd in QBR. If you average that out, he had roughly the 9th best season for a QB last year. Of course, you have to wonder if Josh would have played better if: #1 He had better coaching. We did fire our OC in the middle of the season. #2 He had a better team around him. I know the stats tell a different story but I didn't think the OL was elite. And the wideouts had trouble getting open. One analytics site had both Diggs and Davis below the NFL average in yards of separation/pass play. And, of course, we don't have a back of McCaffrey's caliber, for example, to take some heat off the QB. #1 is a McD thing and #2 is a Beane thing. I think probably both are true. I don't know enough about Staley to compare the two but I think it is fair to say that McD isn't at the Reid level (yet?). I think McD's playoff record at 5-6 is a pretty fair indication of how he's coached in the playoffs. In other words, he's been about average among coaches who get their teams into the playoffs. And I do 'blame' him. We need him to be better than average. But if I had a binary choice of replacing Beane or McD, I'd replace Beane. I think there's more upside on the roster side than the coaching side. Though I do think McD urgently needs to get the OC thing figured out - I hope Brady proves to be The Guy. Not for nothing, but one of the downsides of being the second best team in the NFL for 5 years is we pick pretty low in the draft every year. IMO, that's the big reason we have a solid roster, but not a lot of stars. Most stars are top picks, minus a few lucky picks. I looked at WR over the last 5 years, and by the time the Bills picked all the top guys were gone every year outside of that brutal Cody Ford draft. Beane himself even made a casual reference to the fact that the Bengals built their team by sucking...he doesn't have that luxury. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 21 hours ago, GoBills808 said: I think the Bengals are a perfect example of getting more out of less I certainly don't think they have a better roster than us. Allen is better than Burrow, their wideouts are great but outside that I wouldn't swap rosters over the last 3 seasons. The Bengals and Bills both have elite QBs. Josh is better, but Burrow is also great when healthy. Setting QBs aside, Cincy has three elite players at premium positions in Chase, Higgins, and Hendrickson. Buffalo had Diggs plus half a season of Von. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Billl said: The Bengals and Bills both have elite QBs. Josh is better, but Burrow is also great when healthy. Setting QBs aside, Cincy has three elite players at premium positions in Chase, Higgins, and Hendrickson. Buffalo had Diggs plus half a season of Von. I don’t think Higgins is elite but him + Chase is an unbelievable tandem. I do think it’s funny we all talk about how we need to get more good weapons around Allen, because it will make an exponential difference in performance, then @GoBills808 says the Bengals are getting more with less compared to the Bills, because uh, they only have great wideouts and good pass rushers and we have a really good off ball linebacker. Edited June 14 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 4 minutes ago, FireChans said: I don’t think Higgins is elite but him + Chase is an unbelievable tandem. I do think it’s funny we all talk about how we need to get more good weapons around Allen, because it will make an exponential difference in performance, then @GoBills808 says the Bengals are getting more with less compared to the Bills, because uh, they only have great wideouts and good pass rushers and we have a really good off ball linebacker. And Beane didn’t draft that linebacker. As far as Higgins goes, I don’t think anyone would dispute that he would be the best player on the Bills not named Josh Allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 1 minute ago, Billl said: And Beane didn’t draft that linebacker. As far as Higgins goes, I don’t think anyone would dispute that he would be the best player on the Bills not named Josh Allen. Best player is tough. most impactful? Yeah probably. The 20-25th best WR is probably more impactful than the 3rd best LB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey152 Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) 12 minutes ago, FireChans said: I don’t think Higgins is elite but him + Chase is an unbelievable tandem. I do think it’s funny we all talk about how we need to get more good weapons around Allen, because it will make an exponential difference in performance, then @GoBills808 says the Bengals are getting more with less compared to the Bills, because Chase+Higgins is OBVIOUSLY less than Diggs+Davis. In 2019, Zac Taylor and the Bengals went 2-14. In 2020 draft, they picked Joe Burrow #1 overall, and then picked Tee Higgins with the first pick in the second round. The Bills traded their pick, #22, for Steph Diggs. Hindsight 20/20 maybe we should have picked a WR there instead, but I wouldn't call that a bad move in context. The Bengals went 4-11-1 in 2020 and almost got Joe Burrow killed. Zac Taylor won 6 games in 2 years. With the #5 pick, they draft Jamar Chase. The Bills picked 30th that year. The Bengals built that team because they won 6 games in two years. It wasn't amazing GM or coaching decisions. 5 minutes ago, Billl said: And Beane didn’t draft that linebacker. As far as Higgins goes, I don’t think anyone would dispute that he would be the best player on the Bills not named Josh Allen. Higgins went 33 in 2020. For the Bills to get him they wouldn't have had Diggs. Diggs>Higgins from 2020-2023. He'd also be tied with Coleman for the 4th highest drafted player on the team since 2020. Edited June 14 by Mikey152 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 12 minutes ago, FireChans said: I don’t think Higgins is elite but him + Chase is an unbelievable tandem. I do think it’s funny we all talk about how we need to get more good weapons around Allen, because it will make an exponential difference in performance, then @GoBills808 says the Bengals are getting more with less compared to the Bills, because uh, they only have great wideouts and good pass rushers and we have a really good off ball linebacker. You're not swapping rosters w the Bengals over the last 3 years foh w this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 1 minute ago, Mikey152 said: In 2019, Zac Taylor and the Bengals went 2-14. In 2020 draft, they picked Joe Burrow #1 overall, and then picked Tee Higgins with the first pick in the second round. The Bills traded their pick, #22, for Steph Diggs. Hindsight 20/20 maybe we should have picked a WR there instead, but I wouldn't call that a bad move in context. The Bengals went 4-11-1 in 2020 and almost got Joe Burrow killed. Zac Taylor won 6 games in 2 years. With the #5 pick, they draft Jamar Chase. The Bills picked 30th that year. The Bengals built that team because they won 6 games in two years. It wasn't amazing GM or coaching decisions. You know we won 6 games with a rookie Josh and picked Oliver in the top 10, right? You know we had 2 first round picks in 2018 and picked an amazing QB, and a MLB who is quite literally just “okay” and doesn’t play here no mo? The Bengals took Burrow and Chase in their 2 sucky years. We took Josh, Edmunds and Oliver. Chase >>>>> Edmunds+Oliver, obviously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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