Joe Marino talks what the Bills have to do to beat KC in playoffs

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, Simon said:

At this point, it's just a good debate with no wrong side, imo.

 

It's not even really a debate, it's just a hypothetical thought exercise. Nobody has any clue if we had a better chance winning by scoring right there or by picking up a potentially easy 1st down.

 

The question we should be asking is, what player/coaching errors earlier in the game led to us facing such an impossible scenario? I mean the whole debate over that play never even exists if Mecole Hardman doesn't fumble the ball through the back of the endzone. So talking about that one play ad nauseum is the definition of missing the forest for the trees IMO.

[GoBills808]

30 minutes ago, FireChans said:

To be the best you gotta beat the best?

its true👍

 

you also have to remember we couldn't run the ball well vs chiefs in the playoff game outside Allen, while Chiefs could hand off to Pacheco v Jets averaging over 5ypc

 

i don't think anyone is really capable of running the game out AND scoring a game winning TD. im including in that analysis prime Brady/Manning in full control of their offense w a staff that doesn't flinch in late game situations. that just doesn't happen in the nfl. FG, sure. but imo nobody passes up a look at the go ahead TD. i can't remember a game where a team was losing and took the clock down to zero after scoring the winning touchdown

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

The question we should be asking is, what player/coaching errors earlier in the game led to us facing such an impossible scenario?

 

I'm still convinced that if the Bills were healthy, they would have finished that game in a Victory formation.

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's not even really a debate, it's just a hypothetical thought exercise. Nobody has any clue if we had a better chance winning by scoring right there or by picking up a potentially easy 1st down.

 

The question we should be asking is, what player/coaching errors earlier in the game led to us facing such an impossible scenario? I mean the whole debate over that play never even exists if Mecole Hardman doesn't fumble the ball through the back of the endzone. So talking about that one play ad nauseum is the definition of missing the forest for the trees IMO.

It's true. The defense really saved the game for the offense.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:51 PM, HurlyBurly51 said:

The Bills need someone else to knock out the Chiefs in the playoffs before we would see them.  That is the way in the McD era.

reminds me of how the Steelers won both their recent super bowls. Couldn’t beat the pats. In both their runs, another team knocked off the pats for them. 

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

its true👍

 

you also have to remember we couldn't run the ball well vs chiefs in the playoff game outside Allen, while Chiefs could hand off to Pacheco v Jets averaging over 5ypc

 

i don't think anyone is really capable of running the game out AND scoring a game winning TD. im including in that analysis prime Brady/Manning in full control of their offense w a staff that doesn't flinch in late game situations. that just doesn't happen in the nfl. FG, sure. but imo nobody passes up a look at the go ahead TD. i can't remember a game where a team was losing and took the clock down to zero after scoring the winning touchdown

Kyle Orton had 3 min on the clock and scored with 1 second left in 2014.

[dollars 2 donuts]

On 6/5/2024 at 10:27 PM, 90sBills said:

We haven’t beaten KC when it mattered either. And unlike Cincy, KC actually wins championships. So they’re the biggest roadblock. 

 

 

*tapping the sign*

 

"We. Haven't.  Beaten. Them.  Yet."

 

As in, the Bills are the best team in the NFL against the Chiefs this decade and as in the this Bills team hasn't beaten the Bengals and the one playoff game against them (as opposed to all but 1 Chiefs playoff game) wasn't even close, and from a historical perspective, the Bengals are the only AFC team the Bills have faced more than twice in the playoffs and have never beaten.

 

 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

*tapping the sign*

 

"We. Haven't.  Beaten. Them.  Yet."

 

As in, the Bills are the best team in the NFL against the Chiefs this decade and as in the this Bills team hasn't beaten the Bengals and the one playoff game against them (as opposed to all but 1 Chiefs playoff game) wasn't even close, and from a historical perspective, the Bengals are the only AFC team the Bills have faced more than twice in the playoffs and have never beaten.

 

 

 

We. Haven’t. Beaten. Mahomes. In. The. Playoffs.

 

Historical perspective is irrelevant to this current situation. We’ve met Cincy once while meeting KC 3 times in the playoffs. KC will be there more often than Cincy will. 
 

So you go ahead and worry about a Bengals team that may or may not be there most year, especially given Burrow’s health. Most Bills fans will be focusing on the team that keeps blocking us in the playoffs and that’s KC hands down. 

[Gregg]

Have to win the division first and the Jets and Dolphins will be challenging the Bills for that this year.

[Fan in San Diego]

It really comes down to the defense. Our defense hasn't been able to make a stop when we really needed them to. Bottom line, we need a better defense. We have to be able pressure Mahomes and stop the run. We have always been vulnerable to the run.

[kitchen sink]

On 6/5/2024 at 9:10 AM, FireChans said:

Gary Kubiak was hired by the Broncos in 2015, he changed offensive schemes and defensive schemes and beat BB in the AFCCG. 
 

Coaching changes for contender status teams have been shots in the arm, not “transition years.” This is a very odd take. McVay didn’t need transition years. Does anyone think Haurbaugh is gonna need 3 years to rebuild the Chargers?

 

I would argue that our biggest disadvantage very well may be Reid’s familiarity coaching against McD.

So who do you want to hire for the bills?

 

On 6/5/2024 at 9:20 AM, ganesh said:

Mike Shanahan joined in 1995 and gave a SB in 1997 and 1998 with John Elway. 

So who do you want to hire for the Bills?

[Mikie2times]

On 6/6/2024 at 4:09 PM, Simon said:

 

I'm still convinced that if the Bills were healthy, they would have finished that game in a Victory formation.

Why do you think we would have slowed the Chiefs offense down or do you think we would have won despite not slowing them down? 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, kitchen sink said:

So who do you want to hire for the bills?

 

So who do you want to hire for the Bills?

Ben Johnson. BB as AHC and DC if he’ll take it. 
 

Super Bowl.

[GoBills808]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:04 AM, HappyDays said:

 

It's not even really a debate, it's just a hypothetical thought exercise. Nobody has any clue if we had a better chance winning by scoring right there or by picking up a potentially easy 1st down.

 

The question we should be asking is, what player/coaching errors earlier in the game led to us facing such an impossible scenario? I mean the whole debate over that play never even exists if Mecole Hardman doesn't fumble the ball through the back of the endzone. So talking about that one play ad nauseum is the definition of missing the forest for the trees IMO.

Well we kind of do...we can approximate anyway w win%calculator

 

plugging in for the first down has Bills ball 1st and 10 at the 17 w 1:55 remaining, down 3

that's a win% of 64.55

 

conversely TD w Chiefs ball 1st and 10 at their own 25  1:55 remaining (assuming the kickoff goes for touchback) down 4

Bills win% at 70.61

[dollars 2 donuts]

9 hours ago, 90sBills said:

 

We. Haven’t. Beaten. Mahomes. In. The. Playoffs.

 

Historical perspective is irrelevant to this current situation. We’ve met Cincy once while meeting KC 3 times in the playoffs. KC will be there more often than Cincy will. 
 

So you go ahead and worry about a Bengals team that may or may not be there most year, especially given Burrow’s health. Most Bills fans will be focusing on the team that keeps blocking us in the playoffs and that’s KC hands down. 

 

The Bengals beat us last year.

Before that they round housed us squarely, on our home field, during the playoffs by 17 points. 

 

The other game they briefly killed one of our players before the game was called because of it. A game we were trailing early.

 

I return to my first post about the reason for the loss in the last game of the season against the chiefs, with a patch work D and a WR 1 with the hands of a T-Rex when it mattered most.

 

Most Bills fans are free to perseverate over a team we have beaten under their sun, and on their field, three straight years in a row.

 

I choose concern over a team we can’t beat, but who will likely be there close to the end. And if I am the only one concerned over the fact that the only other AFC QB to play in the Super Bowl this decade…the ONLY other one, was absent during the meat and potatoes of last season, then so be it.  It is my own counsel I will keep on that matter. You are free to huddle up with others to scratch your heads and try to figure out a way to beat a team we’ve beaten before, again and again, and on the road every time.

 

How fortunate we are, 90s, as a fandom to have people speculating both concerns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8 by dollars 2 donuts

[ganesh]

On 6/5/2024 at 10:39 PM, Gregg said:

 

Even if it was a TD I don't know if the Bills would have won. Wasn't there like 1:40 left on the clock if I remember correctly. Mahomes probably drives right down the field with a good chance at getting a GW TD. The Bills defense was having trouble stopping them.

THe last two possessions of the chiefs were a missed FG and a Punt.    

[90sBills]

4 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

The Bengals beat us last year.

Before that they round housed us squarely, on our home field, during the playoffs by 17 points. 

 

The other game they briefly killed one of our players before the game was called because of it. A game we were trailing early.

 

I return to my first post about the reason for the loss in the last game of the season against the chiefs, with a patch work D and a WR 1 with the hands of a T-Rex when it mattered most.

 

Most Bills fans are free to perseverate over a team we have beaten under their sun, and on their field, three straight years in a row.

 

I choose concern over a team we can’t beat, but who will likely be there close to the end. And if I am the only one concerned over the fact that the only other AFC QB to play in the Super Bowl this decade…the ONLY other one, was absent during the meat and potatoes of last season, then so be it.  It is my own counsel I will keep on that matter. You are free to huddle up with others to scratch your heads and try to figure out a way to beat a team we’ve beaten before, again and again, and on the road every time.

 

How fortunate we are, 90s, as a fandom to have people speculating both concerns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course anyone is free to feel anyway they want. The team that we beat ‘under their sun’ as you put it has also beaten us under ‘our sun’ to send us home for the season. Our victories over them were meaningless speed bumps on their way to championships. Fretting over a Cincy team that we have only faced ONCE in the playoffs while discounting a KC team that we’ve faced THREE times in the playoffs without winning once seems misplaced. But, like you said, we’re free to be concerned with whomever we want. I’ll be concerned about Cincy if and when we ever meet them in the playoffs again.

[folz]

I'm a little late to this party, so I'm just going to throw in a couple of random thoughts/arguments I had reading the thread.

 

First of all, for all of those posters sick of people using Reid as some sort of comparison, it is just as annoying for posters to keep saying we should have multiple Super Bowls or be in the Super Bowl every other year at least just because we have Josh Allen. And since we haven't been, it means McDermott sucks or can/will never get over the hump.

 

HOF Dan Marino, HOF Jim Kelly, HOF Fran Tarkenton, HOF Warren Moon, HOF Dan Fouts, Donovan McNabb, Philip Rivers, Steve McNair, Matt Ryan = 0 Super Bowls

 

(future HOF) Aaron Rodgers, (future HOF) Drew Brees, HOF Brett Favre = 1 Super Bowl each (You could actually kind of add HOF Peyton Manning to this list as he was dragged along to his 2nd Super Bowl)

 

So, let's just look at the current or soon-to-be HOFers on those lists. That is 9 Hall of Fame quarterbacks (four of which, at least, you could argue as Top Five All-Time QBs). Combined, they played 154 seasons of NFL football and yet have just 4 Super Bowl rings between them. That's 150 seasons with no rings for these HOF QBs.

 

Just having a great QB does not guarantee Super Bowls.

 

Now you could counter by saying, yeah, well if they didn't have good coaches, it's the same thing as the Bills situation. But in case you forgot, here is a the list of their head coaches: HOF Don Shula, HOF Marv Levy, HOF Bud Grant, HOF Don Coryell, HOF Tony Dungy, Mike Holmgren, Sean Payton

 

Winning a Super Bowl is not as easy as some of you guys think. Just because you have an elite QB, does not guarantee Super Bowls, even with a HOF coach. There are so many factors to a football team and how their season plays out, plus lady luck (in regards to injuries, lucky bounces of the ball, etc.). There is context to every situation.

 

 

And second, as far as getting over the KC hump, yes, we lost to them three times, but I don't see beating them in the playoffs as some insurmountable task. This is the way I kind of look at the three playoff games vs. the Chiefs:

 

2020: Bills first real taste/test in playoffs, KC was just the better and more seasoned team (both players and coaches); Beasley on a broken foot, and a bad knee;  Diggs with an oblique injury; and the refs allowed the KC DBs to hold and manhandle our receivers all game long (just rewatch how unbalanced it was officiating-wise, now some of that too could just be a little lack of playoff experience and knowing that the refs let more go in the playoffs---but it was pretty bad on the refs part, imo). Not saying we would have won otherwise, just another factor. But, the Bills just weren't ready yet for a playoff-seasoned KC team as an up-and-coming team.

 

2021: The infamous 13 seconds. One of the greatest playoff games ever played. Let's face it, whoever had the ball last was going to win that game...both defenses were gassed and had been gashed all game. Those two offenses that year were just perfection. Yes, you can blame coaching all you want, but it's on the players too. And what if we won the coin toss? What if he missed the 48-yard FG? Etc. Plus, you can question coaching decisions for every single team that lost a playoff game in the history of the NFL. Sometimes things just happen. How many playoff miracles are there, where the losing coach gets blamed? Lots. And how many NFL coaches post-1960 are perfect in the playoffs (have no losses that can be questioned)---Zero. Reid was blamed in Philly for bad game mangement and every one of his losses was questioned. Time to get over 13 seconds, it happened, and it's in the past. But this game was obviously a complete toss-up as far as the argument of us "getting over the KC hump" goes.

 

2024: Bills injuries: No Matt Milano, No Jordan Phillips, No Tre White, Taylor Rapp (out), Christian Benford (out), Terrell Bernard (out), Baylon Spector (out), Poona Ford (out), T. Johnson (playing after concussion the week before), Rasul Douglas playing through a knee injury, Gabe Davis (out), Sam Martin punting with a bum hamstring, it was only Micah Hyde's 2nd game back after being out all season, it was Daquan's 4th game back after being out 10 weeks, and whatever the heck was going on with Stefon (whether it was injury or he just quit on the team---21 yards and no TDs on 8 targets with a fumble).

 

And we only lost by 3? That seems more like a plus for coaching rather than a minus, even though it still sure sucked to lose.

 

 

 

[Robert Paulson]

21 hours ago, Gregg said:

Have to win the division first and the Jets and Dolphins will be challenging the Bills for that this year.

I think the fins take a step back as mua is found out and Rodgers is washed up. The Jets are media and ratings darlings but not a threat to take the division.

[Sierra Foothills]

8 hours ago, folz said:

I'm a little late to this party, so I'm just going to throw in a couple of random thoughts/arguments I had reading the thread.

 

First of all, for all of those posters sick of people using Reid as some sort of comparison, it is just as annoying for posters to keep saying we should have multiple Super Bowls or be in the Super Bowl every other year at least just because we have Josh Allen. And since we haven't been, it means McDermott sucks or can/will never get over the hump.

 

HOF Dan Marino, HOF Jim Kelly, HOF Fran Tarkenton, HOF Warren Moon, HOF Dan Fouts, Donovan McNabb, Philip Rivers, Steve McNair, Matt Ryan = 0 Super Bowls

 

(future HOF) Aaron Rodgers, (future HOF) Drew Brees, HOF Brett Favre = 1 Super Bowl each (You could actually kind of add HOF Peyton Manning to this list as he was dragged along to his 2nd Super Bowl)

 

So, let's just look at the current or soon-to-be HOFers on those lists. That is 9 Hall of Fame quarterbacks (four of which, at least, you could argue as Top Five All-Time QBs). Combined, they played 154 seasons of NFL football and yet have just 4 Super Bowl rings between them. That's 150 seasons with no rings for these HOF QBs.

 

Just having a great QB does not guarantee Super Bowls.

 

Now you could counter by saying, yeah, well if they didn't have good coaches, it's the same thing as the Bills situation. But in case you forgot, here is a the list of their head coaches: HOF Don Shula, HOF Marv Levy, HOF Bud Grant, HOF Don Coryell, HOF Tony Dungy, Mike Holmgren, Sean Payton

 

Winning a Super Bowl is not as easy as some of you guys think. Just because you have an elite QB, does not guarantee Super Bowls, even with a HOF coach. There are so many factors to a football team and how their season plays out, plus lady luck (in regards to injuries, lucky bounces of the ball, etc.). There is context to every situation.

 

 

And second, as far as getting over the KC hump, yes, we lost to them three times, but I don't see beating them in the playoffs as some insurmountable task. This is the way I kind of look at the three playoff games vs. the Chiefs:

 

2020: Bills first real taste/test in playoffs, KC was just the better and more seasoned team (both players and coaches); Beasley on a broken foot, and a bad knee;  Diggs with an oblique injury; and the refs allowed the KC DBs to hold and manhandle our receivers all game long (just rewatch how unbalanced it was officiating-wise, now some of that too could just be a little lack of playoff experience and knowing that the refs let more go in the playoffs---but it was pretty bad on the refs part, imo). Not saying we would have won otherwise, just another factor. But, the Bills just weren't ready yet for a playoff-seasoned KC team as an up-and-coming team.

 

2021: The infamous 13 seconds. One of the greatest playoff games ever played. Let's face it, whoever had the ball last was going to win that game...both defenses were gassed and had been gashed all game. Those two offenses that year were just perfection. Yes, you can blame coaching all you want, but it's on the players too. And what if we won the coin toss? What if he missed the 48-yard FG? Etc. Plus, you can question coaching decisions for every single team that lost a playoff game in the history of the NFL. Sometimes things just happen. How many playoff miracles are there, where the losing coach gets blamed? Lots. And how many NFL coaches post-1960 are perfect in the playoffs (have no losses that can be questioned)---Zero. Reid was blamed in Philly for bad game mangement and every one of his losses was questioned. Time to get over 13 seconds, it happened, and it's in the past. But this game was obviously a complete toss-up as far as the argument of us "getting over the KC hump" goes.

 

2024: Bills injuries: No Matt Milano, No Jordan Phillips, No Tre White, Taylor Rapp (out), Christian Benford (out), Terrell Bernard (out), Baylon Spector (out), Poona Ford (out), T. Johnson (playing after concussion the week before), Rasul Douglas playing through a knee injury, Gabe Davis (out), Sam Martin punting with a bum hamstring, it was only Micah Hyde's 2nd game back after being out all season, it was Daquan's 4th game back after being out 10 weeks, and whatever the heck was going on with Stefon (whether it was injury or he just quit on the team---21 yards and no TDs on 8 targets with a fumble).

 

And we only lost by 3? That seems more like a plus for coaching rather than a minus, even though it still sure sucked to lose.

 

 

This is just such a superb post.

 

Honestly, those making the argument that McBeane are obstacles to success and crying for a championship as if they "deserve it" just strike me as being entitled and whiny.

 

I've cheered for the Bills since 1968 and no one wants the Bills to win a Super Bowl more than me.

 

But my happiness and enjoyment do not depend on it and I'm deeply appreciating this post-drought period... and I have faith that the Bills will win a Super Bowl with Josh Allen.