Joe Marino talks what the Bills have to do to beat KC in playoffs

[FireChans]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Player performance depends on coaching too. I get that as a fanbase we've just accepted that McDermott has exactly zero relevance to Allen's performance, or the offense as a whole for that matter, but in reality he should be held accountable for everything. Comes with the job title.

So should the $43M annual check for Mr. Top 2.

 

He certainly didn’t play like top 2 for those 4 games. 
 

So maybe the expectations for McD to have the success of a coach with a top 2 QB should only count when the QB plays like a top 2 QB?

 

Did Reid become a ***** coach for 4 hours when Patrick Mahomes had two turnovers for TD’s on Christmas last year? Unacceptable and he needs to be held accountable, right? Cost them at least the 2 seed.

[hondo in seattle]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

In 2020 we lost two consecutive games to the Chiefs then the Titans, then scraped by the Jets and Pats who went a combined 9-23 that year. Yes that kind of month long slump has happened every single year under McDermott and is always the reason we don't earn the #1 seed. Last year it almost knocked us out of the playoffs entirely. That is on coaching, 100%.

 

And that's just the regular season. The playoff coaching can't even be argued. It has been outright below average. There is not a single data point that says our coaching staff has been up to par in the playoffs.

 

 

This still needs to be said I guess - all other teams don't have Josh Allen. The whole conversation around McDermott is from the context that we have undoubtedly had a top 2 QB over the last four years.

 

If it helps I think McDermott is a pretty good coach. He isn't Brandon Staley. Still I don't think he has been good enough and I'm not expecting that to change.

 

 

So on one hand you want to give McDermott full credit for our regular season record, but on the other you want to blame the roster for our playoff failures and absolve McDermott there.

 

 

Josh is a unicorn and not all head coaches have a guy of that calibre.  But there are guys lining up under center that also play the game pretty well.  Josh was 16th in passer rating last year, 3rd in QBR.  If you average that out, he had roughly the 9th best season for a QB last year.

 

Of course, you have to wonder if Josh would have played better if:

 

#1 He had better coaching.  We did fire our OC in the middle of the season.  

 

#2  He had a better team around him.  I know the stats tell a different story but I didn't think the OL was elite.  And the wideouts had trouble getting open.  One analytics site had both Diggs and Davis below the NFL average in yards of separation/pass play.  And, of course, we don't have a back of McCaffrey's caliber, for example, to take some heat off the QB.  

 

#1 is a McD thing and #2 is a Beane thing.  I think probably both are true.  I don't know enough about Staley to compare the two but I think it is fair to say that McD isn't at the Reid level (yet?).  

 

I think McD's playoff record at 5-6 is a pretty fair indication of how he's coached in the playoffs.  In other words, he's been about average among coaches who get their teams into the playoffs.  And I do 'blame' him.  We need him to be better than average.

But if I had a binary choice of replacing Beane or McD, I'd replace Beane.  I think there's more upside on the roster side than the coaching side.  Though I do think McD urgently needs to get the OC  thing figured out - I hope Brady proves to be The Guy.  

 

 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

I think the Bengals are a perfect example of getting more out of less

 

I certainly don't think they have a better roster than us. Allen is better than Burrow, their wideouts are great but outside that I wouldn't swap rosters over the last 3 seasons.

Their DL is better in the playoffs. 

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Josh is a unicorn and not all head coaches have a guy of that calibre.  But there are guys lining up under center that also play the game pretty well.  Josh was 16th in passer rating last year, 3rd in QBR.  If you average that out, he had roughly the 9th best season for a QB last year.

 

Of course, you have to wonder if Josh would have played better if:

 

#1 He had better coaching.  We did fire our OC in the middle of the season.  

 

#2  He had a better team around him.  I know the stats tell a different story but I didn't think the OL was elite.  And the wideouts had trouble getting open.  One analytics site had both Diggs and Davis below the NFL average in yards of separation/pass play.  And, of course, we don't have a back of McCaffrey's caliber, for example, to take some heat off the QB.  

 

#1 is a McD thing and #2 is a Beane thing.  I think probably both are true.  I don't know enough about Staley to compare the two but I think it is fair to say that McD isn't at the Reid level (yet?).  

 

I think McD's playoff record at 5-6 is a pretty fair indication of how he's coached in the playoffs.  In other words, he's been about average among coaches who get their teams into the playoffs.  And I do 'blame' him.  We need him to be better than average.

But if I had a binary choice of replacing Beane or McD, I'd replace Beane.  I think there's more upside on the roster side than the coaching side.  Though I do think McD urgently needs to get the OC  thing figured out - I hope Brady proves to be The Guy.  

 

 

Preach!

Edited June 13 by FireChans

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

So McDermott developed all those guys but Oliver's failure belongs to Beane? How does this even make sense

 

Beane found Allen. What's McDermott's equivalent success?

 

Ending  the drought and getting us into the playoffs every year except for the season when we had the lowest-paid roster in the league.  

 

It's kind of the chicken or the egg argument.  Do we have a situation where good players make the coach look good?  Or do we have a situation where a good coach develops the players and makes them look good?   I think it's a little of both. 

 

On the defensive side, I think McD's scheme and his ability to get players to play as one unit makes some guys perform better here than they'd perform on other teams.  When I watch our defense, I often think of the old saying, "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts."  And that's because of McD.  

On offense, it's a different story.  McD builds good esprit de corps and commitment but struggles with getting the right OC to implement a scheme that optimizes players' talents.   Brady is his fourth OC.  Only one worked out so far.  McD and Daboll did a nice job developing Allen but now Allen carries the offense.  Brady wasn't great last season but I'm waiting to see how he'll do this year with his own playbook before I pass judgment.  

 

You can't win the lottery unless you buy tickets.  By getting us into the playoffs, McD is giving us a lottery ticket.  Chances are, we'll eventually win.  But I'd like our odds better if (1) Brady turns out to be the right OC - fingers crossed - or is replaced by someone who is, and/or (2) Beane builds a better roster.  

 

Edited June 13 by hondo in seattle

[HappyDays]

48 minutes ago, FireChans said:

So should the $43M annual check for Mr. Top 2.

 

He certainly didn’t play like top 2 for those 4 games. 
 

So maybe the expectations for McD to have the success of a coach with a top 2 QB should only count when the QB plays like a top 2 QB?

 

Did Reid become a ***** coach for 4 hours when Patrick Mahomes had two turnovers for TD’s on Christmas last year? Unacceptable and he needs to be held accountable, right? Cost them at least the 2 seed.

 

Mahomes had a down year in 2021. He was genuinely bad for a stretch in the middle of the season. He put together one elite game against our defense in the divisional round (how about that) before being almost the sole reason they lost the AFCCG to the Bengals. So that next offseason Andy Reid completely revamped the offense and got Mahomes back on track, helping him remove some of the bad habits he'd picked up by totally changing the structure of the offense. Mahomes turned in the best season of his career (IMO) that following year.

 

So yes coaching impacts player performance and that includes the QB. I thought everybody knew that. Of course that doesn't mean every single bad player performance is the coach's fault, but below average streaks from otherwise great players can be turned around by great coaching.

 

But like I said, as a fanbase we've now internalized that McDermott has zero impact on the offense's performance. Zero. That mindset tells on itself. I just don't understand why a certain side of the fanbase is so defensive about firing McDermott when their whole argument is that coaching isn't that important. Do you think he's just a super swell guy and you'd hate to see him go?

[BillsVet]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40342965/patrick-mahomes-says-chiefs-push-ball-field-2024

 

Take it FWIW...off-season puff piece but it's not debatable this is their offense.  

 

If Reid is telling Mahomes to go downfield (and likely has each season) it's noteworthy, because he threw 14 INT's last year which is most he's had in a season. For all the complaints about Allen, he had a lesser talented receiving group and threw 18 INTs.  

 

Yet, McBeane's moves are telegraphing they want a safer offense that doesn't throw it downfield to reduce turnovers.  One that is more horizontal and less vertical.  

 

Two teams offensively going in opposite directions.  One that goes with what works for both them and in the league and the other playing the contrarian role.    

 

[GoBills808]

55 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Josh is a unicorn and not all head coaches have a guy of that calibre.  But there are guys lining up under center that also play the game pretty well.  Josh was 16th in passer rating last year, 3rd in QBR.  If you average that out, he had roughly the 9th best season for a QB last year.

 

Of course, you have to wonder if Josh would have played better if:

 

#1 He had better coaching.  We did fire our OC in the middle of the season.  

 

#2  He had a better team around him.  I know the stats tell a different story but I didn't think the OL was elite.  And the wideouts had trouble getting open.  One analytics site had both Diggs and Davis below the NFL average in yards of separation/pass play.  And, of course, we don't have a back of McCaffrey's caliber, for example, to take some heat off the QB.  

 

#1 is a McD thing and #2 is a Beane thing.  I think probably both are true.  I don't know enough about Staley to compare the two but I think it is fair to say that McD isn't at the Reid level (yet?).  

 

I think McD's playoff record at 5-6 is a pretty fair indication of how he's coached in the playoffs.  In other words, he's been about average among coaches who get their teams into the playoffs.  And I do 'blame' him.  We need him to be better than average.

But if I had a binary choice of replacing Beane or McD, I'd replace Beane.  I think there's more upside on the roster side than the coaching side.  Though I do think McD urgently needs to get the OC  thing figured out - I hope Brady proves to be The Guy.  

 

 

You think Allen was the 9th best QB in the league last year? Seriously?

[HappyDays]

15 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Ending the drought

 

Doug Marrone got us to 9-7 too. He just didn't have the playoff luck from the rest of the AFC that McDermott did.

 

Like I said McDermott is a good coach. I also think his ceiling has been established.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Man I just don't agree with this at all. Every single year under McDermott we've entered a midseason malaise where the whole team looks like crap and goes like .500 over a period of 4-5 games. That isn't normal for playoff contenders, certainly not every single year. Those midseason slumps have been the reason we never end up with the #1 seed. How is that not on coaching?

And yet we still have the 2nd best record in the league over 5 years.  Again…..it’s partly on coaching.  It’s partly on execution.  It’s partly on injuries.  You’re trying to pinpoint coaching here.  A coach can do a good job and still be part of the problem.  That’s usually the case tbh.  

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Player performance depends on coaching too. I get that as a fanbase we've just accepted that McDermott has exactly zero relevance to Allen's performance, or the offense as a whole for that matter, but in reality he should be held accountable for everything. Comes with the job title.

And he has the 2nd best record in the league…..so he should get credit for that?  No?  Or is the HC only accountable for losses and poor play?  Not “everything” apparently.  
 

Wins are a QB stat and losses are the HC stat now?  

 

 

[FireChans]

30 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Mahomes had a down year in 2021. He was genuinely bad for a stretch in the middle of the season. He put together one elite game against our defense in the divisional round (how about that) before being almost the sole reason they lost the AFCCG to the Bengals. So that next offseason Andy Reid completely revamped the offense and got Mahomes back on track, helping him remove some of the bad habits he'd picked up by totally changing the structure of the offense. Mahomes turned in the best season of his career (IMO) that following year.

 

So yes coaching impacts player performance and that includes the QB. I thought everybody knew that. Of course that doesn't mean every single bad player performance is the coach's fault, but below average streaks from otherwise great players can be turned around by great coaching.

 

But like I said, as a fanbase we've now internalized that McDermott has zero impact on the offense's performance. Zero. That mindset tells on itself. I just don't understand why a certain side of the fanbase is so defensive about firing McDermott when their whole argument is that coaching isn't that important. Do you think he's just a super swell guy and you'd hate to see him go?

McD doesn't coach the offense. That's not his area of expertise.  I would rather have him keep his hands off the offense and hire a Brian Daboll who helped turn Josh into what he is today rather than meddle with something that he doesn't really get.

 

I think you're railing against reality a bit here. If you felt so strongly about hiring an offensive coach in 2017, then hey, flowers to you. McD is here now. I don't think he's done a horrific job. If he gets fired, I would prefer an offensive coach like Ben Johnson because I think that having continuity for the most important job/position on the team (QB) is probably the way in today's NFL.

 

McD isn't gonna break down Allen's mechanics and build them back up. It's not going to happen. If you think that's what we need to win a SB, then we are not going to win one soon lol.

 

I personally think there's a lot more REALISTIC paths to winning a SB with McD on the team. I think that firing him and Beane and completely changing team-building and coaching philosophies COULD work. They might even have a better chance of working. But it's not gonna happen. Beane is safe. McD is safe.

 

This is no different than before when you thought Beane had woken up and decided to prioritize WR more like 3 months ago. You thought he was gonna surround Allen with young promising talent. I told you he wouldn't. He didn't. He went safety in round 2 and backup DT in round 3 lol. They are going into the season with a dogwater WR group and ownership that has signed off on a down year with lowered expectations. That's the reality.

 

FWIW, I rail against reality quite a bit on here. But the reality IS the reality.

Edited June 13 by FireChans

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

And he has the 2nd best record in the league…..so he should get credit for that?  No?  Or is the HC only accountable for losses and poor play?  Not “everything” apparently.  

 

McDermott gets credit for the team hitting a certain floor with an established elite QB. He also gets blame for us hitting a certain ceiling.

[NewEra]

35 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

McDermott gets credit for the team hitting a certain floor with an established elite QB. He also gets blame for us hitting a certain ceiling.

Like I said-  you’re playing a one sided blame game .  

[GoBills808]

45 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

McDermott gets credit for the team hitting a certain floor with an established elite QB. He also gets blame for us hitting a certain ceiling.

I don't see why this is so controversial 

 

Unless you're arguing that the lack of postseason success is because of Allen (good luck w that), or that a roster that dominates the regular season but mysteriously falls apart in the playoffs is somehow Beane's fault (tenuous)...what are we realistically left to look at

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I don't see why this is so controversial 

 

Unless you're arguing that the lack of postseason success is because of Allen (good luck w that), or that a roster that dominates the regular season but mysteriously falls apart in the playoffs is somehow Beane's fault (tenuous)...what are we realistically left to look at

What I fundamentally disagree with is McD getting retroactively blamed for a 4 week stretch where Allen played at a below Teddy Bridgewater level 4 years ago as a " midseason coaching failure."

 

We all watched the games. Allen was getting outdueled by the ghost of Cam Newton and relied on the defense to make a critical turnover to win the game. Which they did. What a coaching failure by our doofus defensive HC.

 

You want to complain about coaching in the playoffs? Have at it. I think there's some meat on that bone. I think 2022 is the biggest coaching failure because the team didn't show up at all v the Bengals and while the players deserve some blame, when its team-wide, I think it's mostly on the coaches to have the guys ready to play.

 

No matter how much you guys contort yourselves to blame everything on McD, including blaming him when the offense sucks and then turning around and saying "he has no impact on the offense so why keep him", it's irrelevant. He will be here til 2025, at least. Because he's a good enough coach that the team isn't going to have a Brandon Staley or Nick Sirianni melt-down.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

What I fundamentally disagree with is McD getting retroactively blamed for a 4 week stretch where Allen played at a below Teddy Bridgewater level 4 years ago as a " midseason coaching failure."

 

We all watched the games. Allen was getting outdueled by the ghost of Cam Newton and relied on the defense to make a critical turnover to win the game. Which they did. What a coaching failure by our doofus defensive HC.

 

You want to complain about coaching in the playoffs? Have at it. I think there's some meat on that bone. I think 2022 is the biggest coaching failure because the team didn't show up at all v the Bengals and while the players deserve some blame, when its team-wide, I think it's mostly on the coaches to have the guys ready to play.

 

No matter how much you guys contort yourselves to blame everything on McD, including blaming him when the offense sucks and then turning around and saying "he has no impact on the offense so why keep him", it's irrelevant. He will be here til 2025, at least. Because he's a good enough coach that the team isn't going to have a Brandon Staley or Nick Sirianni melt-down.

Yeah I'd say it's about as disingenuous as touting our regular season record as proof of good coaching and our playoff record as proof of bad GMing

[FireChans]

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yeah I'd say it's about as disingenuous as touting our regular season record as proof of good coaching and our playoff record as proof of bad GMing

I don't do either of those things.

 

I do think our defensive "stars" are mostly not stars at all.  I think this team has two stars.  Josh Allen and Matt Milano. One of them plays the most important position by a mile. The other plays the second least important position on defense.

 

I do think there are some decent players on the roster that COULD be better with a HoF level NFL mind in charge.

 

I do think the players on this team COULD be better if the GM acquired or drafted better players instead of his brand of elite JAGs.

 

I don't think any of that should be controversial either. Having your 5th CB be an NFL caliber player is nice. Having your CB1 be elite is better.

Edited June 13 by FireChans

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Mahomes had a down year in 2021. He was genuinely bad for a stretch in the middle of the season. He put together one elite game against our defense in the divisional round (how about that) before being almost the sole reason they lost the AFCCG to the Bengals. So that next offseason Andy Reid completely revamped the offense and got Mahomes back on track, helping him remove some of the bad habits he'd picked up by totally changing the structure of the offense. Mahomes turned in the best season of his career (IMO) that following year.

 

So yes coaching impacts player performance and that includes the QB. I thought everybody knew that. Of course that doesn't mean every single bad player performance is the coach's fault, but below average streaks from otherwise great players can be turned around by great coaching.

 

But like I said, as a fanbase we've now internalized that McDermott has zero impact on the offense's performance. Zero. That mindset tells on itself. I just don't understand why a certain side of the fanbase is so defensive about firing McDermott when their whole argument is that coaching isn't that important. Do you think he's just a super swell guy and you'd hate to see him go?

 

McD's defenders are not saying that he has zero impact on the offense.  I certainly haven't.  I've said in this thread that he has a positive impact on the esprit de corps and commitment of the offensive players.  But I think he's struggled with scheme & play calling because he's been poor at picking OCs.  His offensive performance has been a mixed bag.  

 

And I certainly don't think coaching is unimportant.  Just the opposite.  If I was an owner, I'd be willing to pay my head coach as much as my QB - or  more - if he was good.  I happen to think McD is a good coach and - especially on the defensive side of the ball - gets players to execute and play well together.  I don't think he's a super swell guy.  I wouldn't fire him because I think the most likely consequence is that we'd end up with a worse head coach and I don't want the team to go backwards.  I think the coaches demonstrably better than him are few in number and already well-employed.  

 

 

Edited June 13 by hondo in seattle

[muppy]

On 6/4/2024 at 4:21 PM, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

We have to fire McDermott. 

 

At what point do Bills fans come to the conclusion that we will NEVER beat an Andy Reid team in the playoffs with McDermott at the helm ?

 

I'm very sorry 

the rainbow of emotions pertaining to this post is illustrative of how divisive this opinion is. Agree , disagree, whatever I think posts like this are Great. Mince no words and let err RIP LOL No ambiguity. I respect that

 

When this topic comes up I'm always curious to who would be the replacement. I want an upgrade ya know? It would be a crapshoot to fire McDermott and be assured his replacement would be better IMO 🙂

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

You think Allen was the 9th best QB in the league last year? Seriously?

 

No, not seriously because I never said that.  I'm starting to wonder if you're intentionally misconstruing & misrepresenting what I've written.  

 

I said his "performance" was 9th best according to a blend of the rating systems.  I think he has top 2 talent.  I don't think his actual performance was top 2.  That's what the stats tell us.  Three QBs threw for more yards.  Five QBs threw more TDs.  Seven QBs had more passing yards per game.  Ten QBs achieved higher completion percentages.  Fifteen QBs achieved higher adjusted average yards per attempt.  Nearly every starting QB in the NFL acheived a better Int/Att ratio.  How does all that add up to a top 2 performance?  It doesn't.  

 

And why weren't Josh's stats top 2?  No elite offensive line.  No elite RB.  Only one elite receiver who was a malcontent and didn't play elite in the second half of the season or the playoffs.  Those are all Beane problems.  He drafted a generational QB and has since failed to give him the supporting cast he deserves.  

 

The scheme and playcalling weren't elite either.  That's a McD problem.