Joe Marino talks what the Bills have to do to beat KC in playoffs

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

So many ways to refute this but I'd start by asking if your argument is that the only avenue to perform at expectation is your relative roster strength, because it seems to follow then that your HC doesn't matter/isn't very good

 

...except we know that teams do in fact beat other more talented/better rostered teams all the time. We saw it last year when the Chiefs beat the Niners and Ravens....or when the Bucs beat the Eagles...or when the Packers beat the Cowboys...also the year before when the Chiefs beat the Eagles in the Super bowl, or the year before that when the Bengals beat the Chiefs in the acfcg. Happens all the time

 

If you prefer to say our coaching is capped by the strength of our roster knock yourself out. I just don't see how that's anything but an admission we have an entirely disposable staff

The three best defensive players on the Bills in the last 4 postseasons has been an off-ball linebacker (for 3 years) and 30+ year old safeties (1 or 2 for 4 years).

 

That ain't gonna get it done.

 

The problem for the Bills defense has been their completely embarrassing lack of pass rush. Last year they couldn't breathe on Mahomes.

 

Every other team you have listed has had better pass rushers than the Bills. We have a bunch of edge setters and guys who are getting the 32nd salary for DE's on the FA market. .

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

The three best defensive players on the Bills in the last 4 postseasons has been an off-ball linebacker (for 3 years) and 30+ year old safeties (1 or 2 for 4 years).

 

That ain't gonna get it done.

 

The problem for the Bills defense has been their completely embarrassing lack of pass rush. Last year they couldn't breathe on Mahomes.

 

Every other team you have listed has had better pass rushers than the Bills. We have a bunch of edge setters and guys who are getting the 32nd salary for DE's on the FA market. .

Man at some point you have to figure it out

 

Oliver is a top10 pick at DT. Make it work ffs

 

Rousseau is a first round pick w all the tools. If you can't develop him into some kind of effective pass rusher then what good are you? Ditto Epenesa but less so

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Maybe I wasn't clear.

 

I think coaches make a huge difference.  The best coaches get the best out of their teams.  They win more games than you'd expect given the strength of the roster.

 

The worst coaches underperform vis-a-vis the roster.

 

I think McD has performed at the level of his roster or above (depending on which season or postseason we want to talk about).  

 

I probably don't think the roster has been as good as you think.  And I think it's unwise to fire a coach who tends to overperform just because he hasn't won a SB yet.  Andy Reid would have been fired many times if that was the case.  

 

Years past, we've gone into seasons with a 0% chance of earning a Lombardi.   With Beane & McD, I rate our chances every year at around 10% - among the league's best.  To improve our chances, we need to build a better roster.  We can either (1) allow Beane to grow into his job, or (2) replace him with someone better.   I don't think firing McD is likely to improve our odds. 

 

 

So your contention is that these divisional round exits have been...McDermott overperforming...w bad rosters? I think that's borderline laughable

 

I give him a lot of credit for having spectacular regular season results. Postseason when it counts the team outside QB plays well below expectations

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Man at some point you have to figure it out

 

Oliver is a top10 pick at DT. Make it work ffs

 

Rousseau is a first round pick w all the tools. If you can't develop him into some kind of effective pass rusher then what good are you? Ditto Epenesa but less so

Maybe they just aren't that good lol.

 

Somehow McD developed Levi Wallace into being an NFL player. Ditto for Dane Jackson, Milano, Benford. Turned Poyer and Hyde into Pro Bowlers. Terell Bernard turned into quite a solid young player after a shaky rookie season.

 

Maybe Oliver just ain't that good. Maybe Rousseau is a toolsy physical player that can't put it all together.

 

Oliver was a top ten pick. His DT contemporaries in that first round are:

 

Quinnen Williams (better player than Eddy)

Christian Wilkins (better player than Eddy)

Dexter Lawrence (better player than Eddy)

Jeffrey Simmons (better player than Eddy )

Jerry Tillery (Oliver is the better player)

 

You look at that as a failure of the coach. I personally blame the GM who took the fifth best DT in the first round at #9.  It was the wrong pick.

 

When the Bengals sucked after taking Burrow, they got the best WR in the draft and a true difference-maker in the NFL. When the Bills sucked after taking Josh, they drafted Oliver, who as above, isn't even the 4th best DT in the first round THAT YEAR, and the major bust in Cody Ford.

 

That's a failure of the GM.

Edited June 13 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Maybe they just aren't that good lol.

 

Somehow McD developed Levi Wallace into being an NFL player. Ditto for Dane Jackson, Milano, Benford. Turned Poyer and Hyde into Pro Bowlers. Terell Bernard turned into quite a solid young player after a shaky rookie season.

 

Maybe Oliver just ain't that good. Maybe Rousseau is a toolsy physical player that can't put it all together.

 

Oliver was a top ten pick. His DT contemporaries in that first round are:

 

Quinnen Williams (better player than Eddy)

Christian Wilkins (better player than Eddy)

Dexter Lawrence (better player than Eddy)

Jeffrey Simmons (better player than Eddy )

Jerry Tillery (Oliver is the better player)

 

You look at that as a failure of the coach. I personally blame the GM who took the fifth best DT in the first round at #9.  It was the wrong pick.

So McDermott developed all those guys but Oliver's failure belongs to Beane? How does this even make sense

 

Beane found Allen. What's McDermott's equivalent success?

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So McDermott developed all those guys but Oliver's failure belongs to Beane? How does this even make sense

 

Beane found Allen. What's McDermott's equivalent success?

No Beane deserves some credit for those guys too. However, guys like Dane, Bernard, Milano, Levi were not NFL-ready day 1. Milano in particular couldn't beat out Ramon Humber for the LB job in 2017 and was relegated to spot duty and STs until he was developed.

 

You seem to think stiffs like AJE with a different coach would be a better player. The market says otherwise, he came back to the Bills for a bargain because no one wanted him lol.

 

And FWIW, Josh Allen in 2018 wasn't Josh Allen in 2020. That's partially development too (although that was more Daboll than McD for obvious reasons).

Edited June 13 by FireChans

[hondo in seattle]

15 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yes, yes, YES.

 

Another "blame Beane for drafting playoff no-show defenders in the first and second round for half a decade" guy! 

 

 

 

 

Beane has limited what he can do in free agency with the three huge contracts he handed out:

 

Josh.  Worth every penny.

 

Diggs.  A productive player but a malcontent.  And now we're paying him $31m to play for someone else.

 

Miller.  Not a malcontent but not a productive player.

 

In the draft, we all know Beane's been hit-or-miss.  

 

Overall, Beane's built a good roster, not a great one.  We lose too many one-on-one battles both on offense and defense, particularly in the playoffs.  That's not poor coaching, that's a lack of player talent.  Though, to be fair, Beane hasn't been helped by injuries. 

 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

No Beane deserves some credit for those guys too. However, guys like Dane, Bernard, Milano, Levi were not NFL-ready day 1. Milano in particular couldn't beat out Ramon Humber for the LB job in 2018 and was relegated to spot duty and STs until he was developed.

 

You seem to think stiffs like AJE with a different coach would be a better player. The market says otherwise, he came back to the Bills for a bargain because no one wanted him lol.

 

And FWIW, Josh Allen in 2018 wasn't Josh Allen in 2020. That's partially development too (although that was more Daboll than McD for obvious reasons).

Look at the comment above this one^^

 

You have a guy who legitimately blames the GM for players losing one-on-one battles in the playoffs

 

I give up. If this is truly your take there is no scenario where we can find fault w coaching.

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Look at the comment above this one^^

 

You have a guy who legitimately blames the GM for players losing one-on-one battles in the playoffs

 

I give up. If this is truly your take there is no scenario where we can find fault w coaching.

Aren't you like a big Bengals guy?  You think they are better than us, right?

 

Are they better than us because:

 

11 minutes ago, FireChans said:

When the Bengals sucked after taking Burrow, they got the best WR in the draft and a true difference-maker in the NFL. When the Bills sucked after taking Josh, they drafted Oliver, who as above, isn't even the 4th best DT in the first round THAT YEAR, and the major bust in Cody Ford.

 

Or are they better than us because Zac Taylor and his staff are just that much better than McD and his staff?  Honestly.

[GoBills808]

Just now, FireChans said:

Aren't you like a big Bengals guy?  You think they are better than us, right?

 

Are they better than us because:

 

 

Or are they better than us because Zac Taylor and his staff are just that much better than McD and his staff?  Honestly.

I think the Bengals are a perfect example of getting more out of less

 

I certainly don't think they have a better roster than us. Allen is better than Burrow, their wideouts are great but outside that I wouldn't swap rosters over the last 3 seasons.

[NewEra]

Edmunds

Oliver

epenesa

rousseau

basham

Elam

bishop

 

We’ve acquired 7 defensive players and 7 offensive players with rd 1-2 picks. 

 

Edmunds wasn’t a reason we didn’t win a SB those 5 years-  solid starter, definitely not a difference maker

 

Oliver-  very good player after continued improvement.  A non factor in the playoff losses

 

Epenesa-  similar to Oliver in that he just continues to improve.  Also similar in the fact that he doesn’t come up big in season finales

 

Rouesseau-  very good player- as one of the last players selected in rd 1- I think of him as good value.  See above- no pass rush when needed most.

 

basham- bust bum city-  Beanes worst pick imo

 

Elam-  physical talent-  just like all the bills 1st rd pick.  They hoped he’d be a quick learner. He hasn’t been, but he still has a chance.  High upside player imo.  
 

Bishop-tbd but I think we’re going to love him.  The kid bangs and can cover.  Poyer was our thumper enforcer in the rear.  Bishop bring much more thump.  Physicality.  
 

Imo- It all comes down to the DL.  Pass rush rules the game and we’ve had none in our season ending losses. Zilch.  I think Beanes free agents on the DL have been worse than the draft picks.  Either due to injury, being bad or not showing up in the playoffs, his investments aren’t coming up making plays when we need them too.  Coaches can help put them in better position- but ultimately, the players have to make plays.  
 

3 years in a row, we’ve been without our best defensive player in the playoffs.  White, von then Milano (along with many others).  Those are the guys you count on to make the big plays. If Chris jones were to miss the 23 playoffs and sneed moss the 24 playoffs, I’d bet they have 2 less Lombardis. 

[hondo in seattle]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So your contention is that these divisional round exits have been...McDermott overperforming...w bad rosters? I think that's borderline laughable

 

I give him a lot of credit for having spectacular regular season results. Postseason when it counts the team outside QB plays well below expectations

 

I don't care if you think it's borderline laughable.  It that was meant as an insult, sorry, it didn't land.  Though I don't understand your need to be rude.   TBD, and the world in general, would be a better place if people practiced kindness and respect.

 

But to respond to your point.  I don't think McD overperformed in any postseason so far.  I think he performed about as well as you'd expect given the talent and health of the squad.  And that, in itself, is disappointing.  I want my coach to overperform when it matters most.    

 

I do think he overperformed in the second of last season with how banged up we were on defense.  I think he overperformed in 2017 by getting that untalented squad into the playoffs.   And I think 2018 was one of his best years despite the 6-10 record.  We spent less on active players that season than any team in the NFL.  Based on roster spending, we should have been the league's worst team.  He took that crap roster and made it mildly competitive.  That was an accomplishment.  

 

Since 2020, the Bills are the second-winningest team in the NFL.  I wouldn't rate the Bills roster second-best over that span.  McD's is outperforming a lot of other coaches.  

[HappyDays]

43 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

I think McD has performed at the level of his roster or above (depending on which season or postseason we want to talk about). 

 

Man I just don't agree with this at all. Every single year under McDermott we've entered a midseason malaise where the whole team looks like crap and goes like .500 over a period of 4-5 games. That isn't normal for playoff contenders, certainly not every single year. Those midseason slumps have been the reason we never end up with the #1 seed. How is that not on coaching?

[hondo in seattle]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Look at the comment above this one^^

 

You have a guy who legitimately blames the GM for players losing one-on-one battles in the playoffs

 

I give up. If this is truly your take there is no scenario where we can find fault w coaching.

 

You can lose a one-on-one battle because lack of technique.  Coaches have to share in the blame if that's the case.  But when a guy just can't physically compete with the guy across from him, that's a talent issue.  We've seen this time and time again.  Defensive linemen who can't beat their blocks.  Offensive linemen who can't hold their blocks.  Receivers who can't get separation.  DBs who can't stick to their guys.  Those are mostly not scheme or playcalling problems.  Sometimes the other team just has better players.  

[GoBills808]

Just now, hondo in seattle said:

 

You can lose a one-on-one battle because lack of technique.  Coaches have to share in the blame if that's the case.  But when a guy just can't physically compete with the guy across from him, that's a talent issue.  We've seen this time and time again.  Defensive linemen who can't beat their blocks.  Offensive linemen who can't hold their blocks.  Receivers who can't get separation.  DBs who can't stick to their guys.  Those are mostly not scheme or playcalling problems.  Sometimes the other team just has better players.  

You think the Bengals third string interior OL is better than Ed Oliver? You honestly believe Joe Mixon is actually a 5ypc guy when he averaged 3.8 in the regular season?

[hondo in seattle]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Man I just don't agree with this at all. Every single year under McDermott we've entered a midseason malaise where the whole team looks like crap and goes like .500 over a period of 4-5 games. That isn't normal for playoff contenders, certainly not every single year. Those midseason slumps have been the reason we never end up with the #1 seed. How is that not on coaching?

 

I think saying there's a "midseason malaise" every season is a little hyperbolic.  When did we slump in McD's 13-3 years?  

 

But, yeah, McD is the coach and deserves to be blamed for whatever malaise the team suffered whenever it suffered it.  

 

But here's the thing.  All other NFL teams, other than KC, lose even more regular season games than Buffalo.  So their coaches must allow even more 'malaise' than McD.  So who are you going to replace McD with?  As far as I know, Andy Reid isn't looking for a job.  

 

I'll stick with the guy who sucks less than 30 other NFL coaches (based on W-L record since 2020).  

[FireChans]

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I think the Bengals are a perfect example of getting more out of less

 

I certainly don't think they have a better roster than us. Allen is better than Burrow, their wideouts are great but outside that I wouldn't swap rosters over the last 3 seasons.

I think the Bengals difference in talent is why they have been better and gotten farther, predominantly.

 

I don't see them wasting $10's of millions of dollars on third string DT's.

 

They brought in DJ Reader, we brought in Star Loutototo. A clear better player and guess what, their DL has performed better for it.  They brought in Trey Hendrickson and we brought in Von Miller's old ass. Ditto result.

 

If coaching is the reason the DL sucks despite a ton of investment, why did Daquan Jones have the best year of his career after he was brought in?  Is he just ignoring what McD tells him?

 

I think you give Beane far too much of a pass. I don't hold McDermott to a faultless position, but if you asked guys around the league, I don't think they'd say Oliver is worse DT than his contemporaries because of the HC. I really don't.

 

None of this is a defense to not fire McD either. I just think if we were doing blame pie of why we have capped out at blow out loss in the AFCCG, Beane deserves a far bigger piece than you give him.

[HappyDays]

25 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

When did we slump in McD's 13-3 years?  

 

In 2020 we lost two consecutive games to the Chiefs then the Titans, then scraped by the Jets and Pats who went a combined 9-23 that year. Yes that kind of month long slump has happened every single year under McDermott and is always the reason we don't earn the #1 seed. Last year it almost knocked us out of the playoffs entirely. That is on coaching, 100%.

 

And that's just the regular season. The playoff coaching can't even be argued. It has been outright below average. There is not a single data point that says our coaching staff has been up to par in the playoffs.

 

25 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

All other NFL teams, other than KC, lose even more regular season games than Buffalo.  So their coaches must allow even more 'malaise' than McD.

 

This still needs to be said I guess - all other teams don't have Josh Allen. The whole conversation around McDermott is from the context that we have undoubtedly had a top 2 QB over the last four years.

 

If it helps I think McDermott is a pretty good coach. He isn't Brandon Staley. Still I don't think he has been good enough and I'm not expecting that to change.

 

25 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

I'll stick with the guy who sucks less than 30 other NFL coaches (based on W-L record since 2020).  

 

So on one hand you want to give McDermott full credit for our regular season record, but on the other you want to blame the roster for our playoff failures and absolve McDermott there.

 

Edited June 13 by HappyDays

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

In 2020 we lost two consecutive games to the Chiefs then the Titans, then scraped by the Jets and Pats who went a combined 9-23 that year. Yes that kind of month long slump has happened every single year under McDermott and is always the reason we don't earn the #1 seed. Last year it almost knocked us out of the playoffs entirely. That is on coaching, 100%.

FWIW, Josh Allen had 5 TD’s and 5 TO’s over those 4 games lol.

 

Gotta be a pretty elite coach to compensate for that top 2 QBing. .500 ain’t so bad

Edited June 13 by FireChans

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

FWIW, Josh Allen had 5 TD’s and 5 TO’s over those 4 games lol.

 

Player performance depends on coaching too. I get that as a fanbase we've just accepted that McDermott has exactly zero relevance to Allen's performance, or the offense as a whole for that matter, but in reality he should be held accountable for everything. Comes with the job title.