FireChans Posted June 2 Posted June 2 4 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said: I'm on lunch break so please excuse me for asking you to back your assertion. Who were the two rookies and what were their stats? Thank you 2023: Jayden Reed 2nd round - 64 for 793 and 8 TDs (Better as a rookie than second year Shakir). Dontayvion Wicks 5th round - 39 for 581 and 4 TD’s (Better than rookie year Shakir) 2022: Christian Watson 2nd round - 41 for 611 and 7 TD’s. (Better as a rookie than second year Shakir) Romeo Doubs 4th round - 42 for 425 and 3 TD’s. (Better than rookie year Shakir). 9 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said: Again that's your opinion and it's not necessarily wrong... but I believe that if Coleman has a good rookie season, that the state of the WR corps will not be the reason the Bills don't win the Super Bowl. Regarding MVS, there's no reason to believe he's slowing down. From Sal's article (PTSD spoiler alert): Some people here belief that the addition of Curtis Samuel, MVS, and Chase Claypool are equivalent to signing Trent Sherfield and Deonte Harty. I'm not one of those people I mean, there can be lots of reasons the Bills don’t win a Super Bowl. The defense can get rolled by the Chiefs again. Josh could miss the season. The question is, “what is the best strategy to win the Super Bowl?” If you think Samuel by himself is better than Harty and Sherfield, I COMPLETELY agree. Again, the question is: is Coleman/Samuel/MVS/Claypool better than Diggs/Davis/Sherfield/Harty? Did our offensive weapons get better or worse since last year? IMO, again, the answer is CLEARLY WORSE. Even if Diggs lost a step. And you know what, I wouldn’t really care if the weapons took a little step back this year to set us up for the future. Prior to the Diggs trade, I said it was a guarantee he was gone in 25. Beane ripped the bandaid off a year early. That’s fine by me to sell high and get a cancer outta here. But again, you could have 2 rookies learning and growing with Josh from a historic draft class that has had us talking WR’s for the last 8 months! Or they could’ve drafted another rookie last year or the year prior. Instead, Claypool and MVS will be gone in 25, regardless of how they perform. And we will NEED to get another WR because we have painted ourselves into a corner where everyone and their mother knows we are going WR in our first two picks. AGAIN. Beane’s strategy for WR seems to be “only draft them when you absolutely have to.” IMO, that’s a really bad strategy that the best teams in the NFL DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO. 4 Quote
GoBills808 Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, folz said: The original discussion was a top 32 receiver. If you subtract TEs and go with just receivers, then Claypool was 29th in 2020 and 31st in 2021, and Samuel was 31st in 2020. But that's just nit-picking and granted, it was a while ago for both of them. But, it at least shows that they have the ability to do it. Over the last 5 years, the 32nd WR in yards in the NFL has averaged: 67 receptions for 848 yards and 5 TDs. Last year, Shakir had 39 receptions for 611 yards and 2 TDs. If you prorate his receptions up to the average of the 32nd WR (67 receptions), Shakir would have 67 receptions for 1,050 yards and 3.5 TDs. Now prorating stats is not a predictor, of course, but having a more focal point in the offense from the start of the season and all of the targets left by Diggs and Davis, might not Khalil be able to add 237 yards (that's 14 yards/game) and a couple of TDs over the season? For the first 7 games last year, he only averaged a 26% snap count---his snap count for the entire season ended up being 52%. He only saw 5 total targets in the first 6 games last year. He'll see a lot more playing time this year. And he had an 86.7% catch percentage last season (that's pretty impressive). And with Kincaid most likely being the #1 target this year (and again, from the start of the season, and all the free targets), do you not think that he can add 175 yards (that's 10 yards/game) and 3 TDs to his totals from last year? With those meager improvements in stats from Shakir and Kincaid, we would have two top 32 receiving yard players---without even discussing the opportunities for Coleman, Samuel, and Claypool. Now, I'm not saying you don't want better than say your top two targets at 31st and 32nd in yards, just pointing out that it wouldn't take much to at least be at that level. And, just FYI, over the last 10 games of last season: Diggs and Davis combined for 734 yards and 3 TDs on a 78.8% snap count (Diggs averaged 42 yards/game and had only 1 TD over the last 10 games-including playoffs---it's not like he was playing like a #1 receiver last year). Shakir and Kincaid combined for 900 yards and 5 TDs on a 61.5% snap count And just to see what it would take for Kincaid to not just take another step, but actually be a top TE (what he has to shoot for): Over the last 5 years, the top three TEs in the league averaged 91 receptions for 1,089 yards and 6 TDs. Dalton had 73 receptions for 673 yards and 2 TDs. Can we expect an extra 400 yards (that would be a jump from 40 yards/game to about 64 yards/game on average) and 4 more TDs from him? Hopefully, at least at some point---doesn't seem outrageous, but, yes, it still remains to be seen. Now, if he could just up his yards/reception from 9.2 last year to about 12 this year (and add 4 more TDs across the season), he would be in the elite TE range. And I think the low yards/reception was more about the Bills offense last year, rather than any flaw with Kincaid. I could be wrong again about the overall receiving corps (I did think we would be fine last year---at least Samuel, Claypool, MVS, Hollins are more proven in the league than Harty and Sherfield were). But I have a lot of confidence in Kincaid and Shakir after last season. I have always liked Samuel as a player and we'll finally see him with a top QB. I like the talk about Claypool at this point, but not "counting" on him by any means yet. And Knox is a pretty darn good TE #2. So, I think a lot is riding on Coleman. If he can come in and contribute solidly this year (not as a #1, but maybe #3 or #4 in targets/receptions), I think we'll be really solid actually. If he's not ready this season (there doesn't seem to be any indications of that, at least yet), and Claypool and MVS don't pan out either, then yes, we could be very thin. But, even though there is no apparent/proven elite playmaker in the receiving corps, we did get bigger, stronger, faster, better hands, better red zone targets...so it's not all bad. I wonder if a lot of this discussion really resides on how confident someone feels about Coleman as a player/pick at this point. People wanted a high draft pick WR---Keon was pick #33. The Bills obviously liked him more than 3 of the guys drafted above him (Worthy, Pearsall, Legette). The only other realistic option was to go up and get Brian Thompson Jr. If the Bills had done that would that have made a difference for people in any way? Or did it have to be a true #1 veteran WR? But then, those aren't easy to come by either. I mean, when Gabriel Davis got the second best WR FA contract... I'm just not sure how much else the Bills could have realistically done this year. I don't think you sell out that big in the draft for a top-3 WR, we didn't have a ton of cap space, and if you want to trade for someone, first you actually need a partner, and then you need the money and compensation. And with the way the end of last year played out (and his lack of production in the playoffs), I actually think Diggs was addition by subtraction at this stage. Basically, through trade or FA, the only actual proven #1 WRs that were available to this point were: Calvin Ridley, Keenan Allen, and Diontae Johnson. Not sure that Ridley and Johnson fit the Bills DNA for a start, and Allen is 32 years old and was carrying a 23.1 million cap hit for 2024. And with a lot of the other available guys (Jeudy, Mooney, Moore, etc.), you would be projecting just as much with them as you would be with Shakir or Samuel, imo. Or, basically, it wouldn't be a guarantee that they would be better than what we already have to put us over the top or whatever. Am I looking through rose-colored, homer glasses? Maybe, but I don't know, I have a good feeling about this group as it currently stands, especially in lieu of the limitations the team had putting the group together. Plus, it will be a different offense than we ran the last few years. I believe (just my opinion) they are going for a more ball-control offense, probably like a 54/46 run/pass ratio. Look, the way defenses have tried to stop Josh is with cover zero and to make him be patient marching the ball down the field on long drives (don't give up the big pass plays). The only way to open that up is with the run game and underneath passes. With a better run game and a more old-New England style pass game, we will force teams out of that defense, or we'll just march down the field on them in small chunks. The skill players we have now are much more suited to that style of play. And with a better run game, you aren't asking Josh to put everything on his back (either as a runner or in the pass game). We just lost two All-Pro safeties. Are you really saying adding another WR (after Coleman had already been picked) was more important than adding a safety that should be able to start early? With the way the Bills rotate the D-line, that 2nd 3T will probably see around a 45% snap count this year (basically a co-starter). Maybe you could say a RB wasn't needed, but hopefully Ray Davis will prove you wrong there. Again, if he is on the field like 30-40% this year, that's important snaps, and as I said I believe there will be a bigger focus on the running attack this year. Were you really sold with Ty Johnson as your #2 RB? All three of those players will see WAY more playing time than a 3rd or 4th round WR would (unless that pick was so good that as a rookie he could beat out all but one or two of Shakir, Samuel, Coleman, Claypool, MVS, Hollins). Honestly, what is the likelihood of that? Yes, it was a deep WR class, but we are talking about the 12th WR in the draft (instead of Cole Bishop), the 17th WR in the draft (for Carter), or the 22nd WR (instead of Ray Davis). How deep is deep? There is no guarantee that those players would help much this year. To put a face to it, the next WR picked after each of those Bills picked were Malachi Corley (western Kentucky), Luke Mcaffrey (Rice), and Jacob Cowing (Arizona). I know people hate long posts...sorry...and thanks if you actually read the whole thing. Yes Adding another WR was more important than a safety We haven't been a safety away from a super bowl. It's not that important a position 4 1 Quote
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 2 Posted June 2 5 hours ago, HappyDays said: You can't even get to the Super Bowl these days without an elite pass catcher. And people act like Kincaid isn’t on the team. look it is simple. Kincaid is supposed to be the elite pass catcher. Don’t know why folks have a hard time understanding that. We don’t know if he will be come elite best TE in the league, top 3, top 5, top 10 or bust. But there is no question he is the main piece to the puzzle right on offense. and what is with this out of necessity nonsense some are throwing out? I don’t care why we are drafting receivers. I have to believe most teams draft receivers (again WR/TE) until they hit. Bills are no different. They had Diggs for 4 years via trade. They tried Davis and Knox through the draft and some vets. None panned out. That’s life as an NFL franchise. But now it is freak out time at TBD because Bills have traded Diggs and the receivers we have drafted the last three years have been “out of necessity”. That take just makes zero sense. If one wants to argue the Bills should trade for a WR again. Okay that makes a bit more sense. But with Allen on his big money contract now and a failed Von Miller experiment I don’t see that happening this year. The Bills would be much better off long term having either Coleman or Kincaid hit as an elite talent over giving out a big money contract to a WR. 5 hours ago, HappyDays said: If you want to say having top tier pass catching talent is optional, I'm sorry but that statement is flat out wrong. Again, some are drawing conclusions that are not there. I am a strong believer in an elite TE as a better option to an offense over an elite WR. Bills are trying to hit a home run with Kincaid. It’s harder to find that elite TE but it’s worth it if you hit on them. I’m glad the Bills took a swing. But yes, of course an offense needs someone elite catching the ball. Whether it is a TE or a WR doesn’t necessarily matter but I think most see the recent value in TE’s leading teams to multiple rings. 1 Quote
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 2 Posted June 2 3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: That plan to give a larger role didn't work for Robert Foster in 2019, did it? It was supposed to be Foster and Brown on the outsides and Beasley as the slot. Foster fell flat on his face and they ended up needing to trade for Diggs the next offseason. Then it didn't work with Gabriel Davis or Dawson Knox in 2022. Both failed to live up to promise and that lead to the Bills needing to use their first selection on Kincaid in 2023 and then Coleman in 2024. But all 3 of Foster, Davis and Knox had incredibly efficient seasons in limited roles that made it seem like they were locks to become stars with more usage. Just like Khalil Shakir last year. I tend to buy Kincaid improving because he has special traits and no real glaring weakness like Shakir's lack of arm length. But also his numbers weren't very good. 9.2 yards per reception is pathetic for anyone not lined up at RB. If he repeated those the term "bust" would start getting tossed around. Not everything goes to plan. We all know that. That said, Kincaid has better pedigree as you suggest so the increased work load is totally rationale and expected. I agree Shakir could hit or bust. Don’t know. But I don’t see a reason to not give him a legitimate shot at hitting. And of course, Bills did draft Coleman 32 overall. They are not putting all their eggs in the Shakir, Vet or bust basket. 1 Quote
FireChans Posted June 2 Posted June 2 14 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: And people act like Kincaid isn’t on the team. look it is simple. Kincaid is supposed to be the elite pass catcher. Don’t know why folks have a hard time understanding that. We don’t know if he will be come elite best TE in the league, top 3, top 5, top 10 or bust. But there is no question he is the main piece to the puzzle right on offense. and what is with this out of necessity nonsense some are throwing out? I don’t care why we are drafting receivers. I have to believe most teams draft receivers (again WR/TE) until they hit. Bills are no different. They had Diggs for 4 years via trade. They tried Davis and Knox through the draft and some vets. None panned out. That’s life as an NFL franchise. But now it is freak out time at TBD because Bills have traded Diggs and the receivers we have drafted the last three years have been “out of necessity”. That take just makes zero sense. If one wants to argue the Bills should trade for a WR again. Okay that makes a bit more sense. But with Allen on his big money contract now and a failed Von Miller experiment I don’t see that happening this year. The Bills would be much better off long term having either Coleman or Kincaid hit as an elite talent over giving out a big money contract to a WR. Again, some are drawing conclusions that are not there. I am a strong believer in an elite TE as a better option to an offense over an elite WR. Bills are trying to hit a home run with Kincaid. It’s harder to find that elite TE but it’s worth it if you hit on them. I’m glad the Bills took a swing. But yes, of course an offense needs someone elite catching the ball. Whether it is a TE or a WR doesn’t necessarily matter but I think most see the recent value in TE’s leading teams to multiple rings. So you are saying today that Kincaid is elite? If that’s your take and you think Kincaid is already elite, and you’re right, then hey, we’ll be alright. Quote
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 2 Posted June 2 Just now, FireChans said: So you are saying today that Kincaid is elite? If that’s your take and you think Kincaid is already elite, and you’re right, then hey, we’ll be alright. hardly my take. The big swing the bills took is that Kincaid becomes elite. Like top 5 next season is probably the hope. Top 3 after that. Quote
FireChans Posted June 2 Posted June 2 Just now, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: hardly my take. The big swing the bills took is that Kincaid becomes elite. Like top 5 next season is probably the hope. Top 3 after that. then we don’t have an elite receiving threat on the roster? I don’t understand. You can’t say we’re forgetting Kincaid is on the team when we’re talking about elite weapons and then say Kincaid is not elite. If he’s elite, then we have one. If he isn’t, then we don’t. Right? Quote
Einstein's Dog Posted June 2 Posted June 2 3 hours ago, FireChans said: Just FYI, we have -6M in space next year Cap space is fluid, especially a year out. Remember the thread from tranplantbillsfan "$23 million in CAP in 2025 if no more moves as of 5/14". The point is a team should be able to afford an expensive QB, expensive WR1 and expensive LT. That has been a gold standard strategy that the Bills have applied. Quote
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 minute ago, FireChans said: then we don’t have an elite receiving threat on the roster? I don’t understand. You can’t say we’re forgetting Kincaid is on the team when we’re talking about elite weapons and then say Kincaid is not elite. If he’s elite, then we have one. If he isn’t, then we don’t. Right? here is what you are missing FC. had the Bills drafted another WR in rounds 2-4 half of the people complaining in this thread of lack of receivers and what not, would withdrawal their complaints. But would have changed? Bills would still not have an elite receiver, TE or WR. But for some reason their fears would subside because we took another chance on a receiver on day two or three. heck, even say we traded into the top 10 and drafted one of the big three. We still don’t have an elite receiver on the roster going into this season in that scenario but again, it would be silent in this thread from those screaming the loudest that we haven’t invested in the position (false) or that we don’t have elite talent on the roster at the receiver position. 1 Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted June 2 Posted June 2 18 hours ago, FireChans said: The biggest problem for most fans who won’t stop complaining about this is that in a super deep WR draft that was filled with need picks by the Bills, the Bills didn’t feel like they needed a 2nd WR over a 2nd RB or a safety or a 2nd 3T. I think that is a fair assessment. And given some quality safeties still available in free agency they could have double dipped on WR in the second round and still addressed safety. Another RB and a future starting C were quality need picks. The S from Utah who probably is best suited to play in the box was one of my least favorite picks. There were good WR options there. Quote
mrags Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, Sierra Foothills said: I'm on lunch break so please excuse me for asking you to back your assertion. Who were the two rookies and what were their stats? Thank you. To the bolded, I know that though you occasionally affirm that none of us can know for sure, it's pretty clear that you don't think Coleman will succeed... based on the body of your comments about him since before he was drafted. Most of your secondary arguments seem like they are built on that single belief. If on the other hand you believe that Coleman will succeed, then IMO there's no reasonable basis to think that with the continued development of Shakir and Kincaid, the additions of Samuel, MVS, and Claypool, atop the baseline established by Cook and Knox, that the Bills will have surrounded Josh with enough good weapons... and that there's no reason to double down. Many other posters on this board agree with you... they don't like the Coleman pick so they wanted to double down, even though as @folz pointed out, how do you justify doubling down when Hyde and Poyer are no longer on the roster? So the people who wanted to double down should at least say which round and which player they wanted instead of the player we drafted. THEN we're having a worthwhile conversation. Again that's your opinion and it's not necessarily wrong... but I believe that if Coleman has a good rookie season, that the state of the WR corps will not be the reason the Bills don't win the Super Bowl. Regarding MVS, there's no reason to believe he's slowing down. From Sal's article (PTSD spoiler alert): "... last January when Valdes-Scantling made two huge plays for the Chiefs when they defeated the Bills in the divisional playoff game at Highmark Stadium. On the first play of the third quarter, he lined up in the slot and drew man coverage from Taron Johnson who is five inches shorter. Patrick Mahomes recognized the matchup and Valdes-Scantling ran a seam route and despite tight coverage, he made a superb catch for a 30-yard gain. Five plays later the Chiefs were in the end zone and in the lead, 20-17. Then later in the third, after the Bills had regained a 24-20 advantage, Valdes-Scantling struck again. On a second-and-7 from the Buffalo 48, he was again in the slot and ran a route where he found a hole in zone coverage between Rasul Douglas and Micah Hyde and Mahomes hit for a 32-yard gain. That big play led to Isaiah Pacheco scoring what proved to be the winning touchdown." Some people here belief that the addition of Curtis Samuel, MVS, and Chase Claypool are equivalent to signing Trent Sherfield and Deonte Harty. I'm not one of those people. To the bolded, that's a good question and one the Vikings are asking themselves about Justin Jefferson. But you didn't address the draft compensation issue. Unlike Jefferson who is simply a matter of re-signing, the Bills would have to send multiple high draft picks to the Niners for Aiyuk. Tell me, what would you be willing to trade for Aiyuk? I don’t like Coleman. And I think he will be about what Gabe Davis is. But even if he was a first ballot HOFer his first season it still wouldn’t change the fact that I think they need more weapons and should be surrounding Allen with talent. What we’re doing right now is no different than the Packers treated Rodgers in his final years. to answer your question? There were plenty of WRs I would have taken in rds 2-7. And I specifically wasn’t asking them to go rd 1 and rd2 for WR. Or since they traded back, multiple 2nd rounders, or even rd 2 and rd 3. But there was quite a bit of talent on the board and they passed on them for guys that are going to end up being backups to the LB group, a 2nd or even a 3rd RB on this team, a rotational at best DE, a rotational backup to Oliver. plenty of names late in the draft that had some high marks. I get it, 31 other teams passed on them until someone finally took them in xx round. The point is, none of those other teams have Josh Allen. None of those other teams traded away their best WR, and let their 2nd WR walk in FA. None of those other teams were pinning their hopes that Kalil freaking Shakir would somehow end up being a 1,000 yard guy, and somehow Mack Hollins would do something he’s literally never done. This feels like last year when we pinned our hopes on Harty and Sherfield. Except this year we don’t have Davis or Diggs. im fine with them completely overhauling the WR toom. It needed it imo. But let’s not blow sunshine up each others asses I’m thinking that they did Allen any favors just yet. They replaced like 400 targets with some has beens, some never was’, and some rookie that was at best everyone’s 4th pick and hope that he’s going to somehow blossom into a number 1 right away. Hell, I’d put money on it that McDermott does what he always does and limits his reps on game day as it is. Because McDermott is an asshat. That’s for another thread, another time. point is we needed help in the WR room, which was proven they thought so as well, since they have signed multiple WRs AFTER the draft. do I think this group will be ok? Yes, I do think they’ll be fine. But that’s more my believe that Allen will bring it out of them vs them being amazing. And then we’ll get to the part where we see Allen’s career wasted away, year after year, thinking….. if only Allen had some true talent at the WR position, what might have been. 1 Quote
Maine-iac Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, FireChans said: Beane’s strategy for WR seems to be “only draft them when you absolutely have to.” IMO, that’s a really bad strategy that the best teams in the NFL DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO. Best teams like the Chiefs or formerly the Pats? Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted June 2 Posted June 2 31 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: Not everything goes to plan. We all know that. That said, Kincaid has better pedigree as you suggest so the increased work load is totally rationale and expected. I agree Shakir could hit or bust. Don’t know. But I don’t see a reason to not give him a legitimate shot at hitting. And of course, Bills did draft Coleman 32 overall. They are not putting all their eggs in the Shakir, Vet or bust basket. 1) For Beane, 100% of the receiving target projections have failed. It's not a coin flip, it's UNLIKELY that guys picked where Knox, Davis and Shakir were selected will turn into stud, high volume targets. That's what a lot of Bills fans don't seem to understand. 2) The reason to not make Shakir WR1 or WR2 is because of what I just said above. Starting out the season as WR3 or competing for WR3 is a "legitimate shot at hitting". It's a huge risk with one of Josh Allen's prime seasons to have him at the top of the target chain. And as much as I like Kincaid, his success came in part at the expense of success they had with Knox in seasons prior. Knox had higher passer rating when thrown to in both 2021 and 2022 than Kincaid did in 2023. Kincaid wasn't a revelation. Their passer rating when throwing to TE's dropped last year. Which is my point about Kincaid looking like a failed 1st round pick if he can't be A LOT better in 2024. 3) Coleman was 33rd overall and 8th WR off the board. Other than @HappyDays I can't recall anyone else wanting him with the Bills first pick. To me, he looks like a project. I hope I'm wrong but the guys that put up big rookie seasons tend to be guys with physical tools that allow them to get open immediately in the NFL. Coleman never even had an 800 yard season in college, he didn't get open consistently and his contested catch numbers were actually quite bad last year. I used Davante Adams as a ceiling comp, so I like his overall talent, but Adams just stunk it up his first two seasons in the NFL and didn't become a superstar until year 5. That despite also having second round pedigree along with massive college production and having a HOF QB throwing him the ball in the pro's. Quote
Einstein's Dog Posted June 2 Posted June 2 1 hour ago, Sierra Foothills said: So the people who wanted to double down should at least say which round and which player they wanted instead of the player we drafted. THEN we're having a worthwhile conversation. To the bolded, that's a good question and one the Vikings are asking themselves about Justin Jefferson. But you didn't address the draft compensation issue. Unlike Jefferson who is simply a matter of re-signing, the Bills would have to send multiple high draft picks to the Niners for Aiyuk. Tell me, what would you be willing to trade for Aiyuk? I didn't address the draft compensation because your complaint was about cost. The Bills have an extra 2nd + 4th for 2025 so they have plenty of ammo. I think the Bills could offer up a 1st + 4th for either Metcalf or Aiyuk. They just fit the Bills current roster like gloves- bring the entire offseason moves together. It would create a young Phase 2 on the offense. Metcalf/K Coleman/Shakir /Samuel w Kincaid + Cook/Davis what a new core for several years. If Beane can't swing it for either of those 2, I would offer a 2nd to the Raiders for D Adams. Get him on a 2 year deal. If that doesn't work DHop for the late 2nd for 2 years. As to your earlier question to someone else I was worried about the doubling down with Franklin. He was there in the third. That would have been the rebuild way to go IMO. If the Bills don't do a trade for a vet WR, I will be wondering why Beane didn't do that.. At the time I was rooting against it because it would have signaled to me the end of the WR search. 1 Quote
Maine-iac Posted June 2 Posted June 2 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: 1) For Beane, 100% of the receiving target projections have failed. It's not a coin flip, it's UNLIKELY that guys picked where Knox, Davis and Shakir were selected will turn into stud, high volume targets. That's what a lot of Bills fans don't seem to understand. Right because they have to be high draft picks like Kelce, or Kupp, or Nacua? Edited June 2 by Maine-iac Quote
BillsFanForever19 Posted June 3 Posted June 3 (edited) On 6/1/2024 at 11:35 AM, Einstein's Dog said: It seems the majority of Bills fans do not think a good WR will be added. The love for Beane is deep and they cannot admit that it would be a huge stain on his resume if we go into a prime Josh season without a top 32 WR on the roster. On the flip side all the off-season moves come together into an excellent plan with just this one move. It's the linchpin move. It's the plan behind moving Diggs, why he didn't take any of the mediocre FA WRs, part of why he didn't double dip on WRs in the draft, why he didn't initially take all Josh money. Apparently, I am the only one who sees this. IMO Beane can continue to be a great GM, these are all things I would have done - I was rooting for them. But to not finish it off would result in a huge downgrade of my evaluation of Beane. June 3rd is Monday. It's coming. These type of ridiculous excuse threads will roll off the pages. Around and around we go... You are constantly connecting dots that do not connect. In a board full of pie in the sky posters, you are literally the only poster who thinks this is not only likely, but is practically guaranteeing it's going to happen. And if anyone disagrees with the likelihood of it happening, it means to you that the "love for Beane is deep" and we all love how he built the room and don't question whether or not it's going to work. That just doesn't compute to me. You can look at the state of the roster and what he's done so far and simultaneously wish that a.) he had gotten someone bigger and also b.) think it's very unlikely at this point that he will. Those thoughts are not mutually exclusive. And honestly, that's probably the vast majority of posters. He drafted Keon Coleman with the first pick in the 2nd Round. He gave Curtis Samuel a long term 24m contract with 15m guaranteed. He went out and signed Mack Hollins on Day 1 or Day 2 of FA to guaranteed money and a specific role. He signed MVS to guaranteed money and a specific role. He added Chase Claypool and KJ Hamler. He spent a 5th Round investment on Justin Shorter just last year and redshirted him in preparation for this season. That's SEVEN new WR's, with no less than 4 of them are guaranteed to be here. He's not cutting Coleman, Samuel, MVS, or Hollins. And we only had 4 spots to replace. If doing a big time trade now was "the plan" - there would have been multiple moves he made that he wouldn't have made. It's as simple as that. If he added an 8th new rosterable WR, he'd have to cut half of them and that's not going to happen. Edited June 3 by BillsFanForever19 Quote
FireChans Posted June 3 Posted June 3 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Maine-iac said: Best teams like the Chiefs or formerly the Pats? Yes the Chiefs. They have drafted way more WR’s. Niners too. And Eagles. 29 minutes ago, Maine-iac said: Right because they have to be high draft picks like Kelce, or Kupp, or Nacua? Cooper Kupp would’ve been the highest drafted WR in Beane’s tenure. 1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: here is what you are missing FC. had the Bills drafted another WR in rounds 2-4 half of the people complaining in this thread of lack of receivers and what not, would withdrawal their complaints. But would have changed? Bills would still not have an elite receiver, TE or WR. But for some reason their fears would subside because we took another chance on a receiver on day two or three. heck, even say we traded into the top 10 and drafted one of the big three. We still don’t have an elite receiver on the roster going into this season in that scenario but again, it would be silent in this thread from those screaming the loudest that we haven’t invested in the position (false) or that we don’t have elite talent on the roster at the receiver position. No. What I would say is, “we need to rebuild the WR room, Diggs was a cancer and we finally have a couple of young cheap WR’s that may be worth $30M per season that we don’t have to decide to pay or not for YEARS, while Josh has an enormous cap hit.” I have been really really really consistent on this. I wanted the Steelers model on this. And guess what, maybe one of those guys turns into an elite threat? Or maybe even both! Do you know how you ensure you never land on an elite receiving threat? You don’t draft them. MVS will never be elite. Mack Hollins will never be elite. Samuel will never be elite. CLAYPOOL will never be elite. Hamler will never be elite. Ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever. The reason the complaints would cease is because it would be proof that Beane understands having good pass catchers is important. Something he has not proved to know outside of the fever dream of 2019-2020 Edited June 3 by FireChans Quote
FireChans Posted June 3 Posted June 3 22 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said: Around and around we go... You are constantly connecting dots that do not connect. In a board full of pie in the sky posters, you are literally the only poster who thinks this is not only likely, but is practically guaranteeing it's going to happen. And if anyone disagrees with the likelihood of it happening, it means to you that the "love for Beane is deep" and we all love how he built the room and don't question whether or not it's going to work. That just doesn't compute to me. You can look at the state of the roster and what he's done so far and simultaneously wish he had gotten someone bigger and also think it's very unlikely at this point that he will. Those thoughts are not mutually exclusive. And honestly, that's probably the vast majority of posters. He drafted Keon Coleman with the first pick in the 2nd Round. He gave Curtis Samuel a long term 24m contract with 15m guaranteed. He went out and signed Mack Hollins on Day 1 or Day 2 of FA to guaranteed money and a specific role. He signed MVS to guaranteed money. He added Chase Claypool and KJ Hamler. He spent a 5th Round Pick on Justin Shorter last year and redshirted him in preparation for this season. That's 7 new WR's, with no less than 4 of them being guaranteed to be here. And we only had 4 spots to replace. If doing a big time trade now was "the plan" - there would have been multiple moves he made that he wouldn't have made. It's as simple as that. brother, you are 0fer on the big off-season predictions this year. If you start arguing across multiple threads that there’s no way the Bills trade for a WR, it’s only gonna increase the odds, no matter how sound your reasoning is lol Quote
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 3 Posted June 3 8 minutes ago, FireChans said: Do you know how you ensure you never land on an elite receiving threat? You don’t draft them. so you have given up on Kincaid and Coleman already? both those guys have elite potential. Two elite potential receivers drafted in the last two seasons. Quote
FireChans Posted June 3 Posted June 3 1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: so you have given up on Kincaid and Coleman already? both those guys have elite potential. Two elite potential receivers drafted in the last two seasons. I don’t think Coleman does. But that’s a personal opinion and he’s on the team so I’ll hope his the best Bills WR ever. Quote
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