Gronkowski, Kelce, Graham, Ward - Why do fans want want a Randy Moss type?

[Billl]

4 minutes ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

I love Kinkaid, but don’t fans think that other DCs watch film and are going to make life much more difficult for these guys? Homers always believe that a player’s improvement is linear … well he’ll be 20% better next season, another 20% better the following season … and on and on.  It’s a fool’s errand to count on that 

It’s certainly reasonable to expect that he’ll continue to improve, but to your point, it’s unlikely to be exponential.  Yes he was a rookie, but he was also 24 years old and likely closer to his ceiling than most.  There were 15 players last season who are younger than him who had more yards than he did.  

 

To put it into a bit of perspective, he is either older than or less than 6 months younger than guys like CeeDee, Justin Jefferson, Gabe Davis, Amon-Ra, Nico, Kyle Pitts, Jerry Jeudy, and a ton of other players who seem like they’ve been in the league for a long time.  By the time Gronkowski was the same age that Kincaid is now, he had 44 career TDs compared to 2 for DK.  

 

None of this is to say that Kincaid won’t be a star in this league, but expecting him to be in the HOF is just setting one’s self up for disappointment.  

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Well......about that......

 

Diggs isn't going to the HOF......not with the numbers needed as an accumulator nowadays.  

 

And the recent Bills teams will be as forgotten as the Marty Chargers or Marvin Lewis Bengals if they don't somehow win a SB soon.

 

So ultimately Diggs will probably be remembered most for making one of the greatest plays in postseason history. 

 

 

yes, the one TD everyone remembers---Diggs catches a perfect;y thrown ball right to him....and the Defender does something no one has ever seen before.  

 

They were eliminated a game later--shut out for the last 55:40 of 60 minutes.  For the past 3 years, in closeout games, he was 10/24 for 63 yards, zero TDs.  That's a liability.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

Exactly what I was thinking. We just need one of the best 2 TEs ever in the league, or a HOF caliber WR. Or one of the most athletic gifted TEs ever. But don’t worry, we don’t need an elite talent catching balls from Josh Allen. lol 

 

Kincaid is the Gronk of 4 yard outs.

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

We can talk about everything, that’s the beauty of the off-season!

 

the Chiefs receiving group as a whole last year was kinda stinky. They led the league in drops. They contributed to one the worst statistical season of Mahomes’ career. This was because the Chiefs had whiffed on Toney, Moore, etc. Their only saving grace at WR was Rashee Rice. But Kelce was still great enough, particularly in the postseason and their defense was great, particularly in the postseason, and they had enough to win the title.

 

I disagree with Brandon Beane’s investment of the WR position for a multitude of reasons. I don’t think his strategy is the way for the Bills to win a Super Bowl. I also think that copying the 2023 Chiefs model with an inferior version of good TE and crummy WR’s is not the way to win the Super Bowl. Having Kincaid try to be a worse version of the arguable greatest TE of all time does not work when you ignore the elite playoff defense the Chiefs proved to have last year and the Bills haven’t proved to have, well, ever. 
 

So yeah. Trying to be the 2023 Chiefs with less HoF players and a worse defense and a worse coaching staff and a worse QB sounds like WC champs again. Sue me. 

It’s not McBeane. It’s Beane. He doesn’t value WR’s. He values DL much much much higher. He wants his physical specimen QB to carry garbage WR’s to the promised land. It’s the Carolina way. 

We can win a Super Bowl without a great WR unit.   That’s all that really matters.  If we had poor WRs and a mix of sub par to average TE, RB and OL units, I would think we’d have a discussion for doing things wrong. Instead,  we have above average to good, maybe very good units along with an elite QB.  

So many saying that we’re not helping 17 by not investing more into WR.  I agree that I’d have liked to invest more in WR, but I don’t agree that we aren’t helping him.  I think our run game will be improved and that will open up play action and Josh’s ability to move around and create time out of the pocket.  I think Josh has the ability to transform Coleman, Samuel, Shakir, Kincaid, knox, Cook, Hollins and MVS from unproven unit to a quality unit.  Kincaid, Coleman and Samuel are top 40 picks.  They’re talented-  Coleman and Samuel haven’t had the benefit of playing with 17 yet.  17 can help level them up as he will continue to do with Shakir.  Hollins has never played with a good QB.  MVS has won back to back being WR3-4.

 

I get it.  You guys want better WRs. So do I.  Let’s just not act like we’re ruining 17’s career by not having an elite WR.  We had one and he was a no show more often than not on the biggest stage

[Gunsgoodtime]

0% of Super Bowls have been won with a Sean McDermott or a Brandon Beane. 

Edited June 1 by Gunsgoodtime

[FireChans]

31 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We can win a Super Bowl without a great WR unit.   That’s all that really matters.  If we had poor WRs and a mix of sub par to average TE, RB and OL units, I would think we’d have a discussion for doing things wrong. Instead,  we have above average to good, maybe very good units along with an elite QB.  

So many saying that we’re not helping 17 by not investing more into WR.  I agree that I’d have liked to invest more in WR, but I don’t agree that we aren’t helping him.  I think our run game will be improved and that will open up play action and Josh’s ability to move around and create time out of the pocket.  I think Josh has the ability to transform Coleman, Samuel, Shakir, Kincaid, knox, Cook, Hollins and MVS from unproven unit to a quality unit.  Kincaid, Coleman and Samuel are top 40 picks.  They’re talented-  Coleman and Samuel haven’t had the benefit of playing with 17 yet.  17 can help level them up as he will continue to do with Shakir.  Hollins has never played with a good QB.  MVS has won back to back being WR3-4.

 

I get it.  You guys want better WRs. So do I.  Let’s just not act like we’re ruining 17’s career by not having an elite WR.  We had one and he was a no show more often than not on the biggest stage

We can win a Super Bowl if Josh Allen gets hurt week 11 and another failed QB plays great like Nick Foles did 2017.

 

That doesn’t make it a good plan. It doesn’t make it likely.

[Breakout Squad]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

not a closeout game, but yes....he had one good run.

It was a division round game. Isn’t that closeout enough? Not being sarcastic. 

[Dr. Who]

3 hours ago, Billl said:

It’s certainly reasonable to expect that he’ll continue to improve, but to your point, it’s unlikely to be exponential.  Yes he was a rookie, but he was also 24 years old and likely closer to his ceiling than most.  There were 15 players last season who are younger than him who had more yards than he did.  

 

To put it into a bit of perspective, he is either older than or less than 6 months younger than guys like CeeDee, Justin Jefferson, Gabe Davis, Amon-Ra, Nico, Kyle Pitts, Jerry Jeudy, and a ton of other players who seem like they’ve been in the league for a long time.  By the time Gronkowski was the same age that Kincaid is now, he had 44 career TDs compared to 2 for DK.  

 

None of this is to say that Kincaid won’t be a star in this league, but expecting him to be in the HOF is just setting one’s self up for disappointment.  

Maybe, but wasn't Kelce 24 years old during his rookie season? Naturally, that kind of ascendance is exceedingly rare, but there's plenty of runway for a HOF career.

[NewEra]

36 minutes ago, FireChans said:

We can win a Super Bowl if Josh Allen gets hurt week 11 and another failed QB plays great like Nick Foles did 2017.

 

That doesn’t make it a good plan. It doesn’t make it likely.

And adding a star WR (at the expense of other positions) makes it that much more likely?   
 

Seems to me like the uproar began when we didn’t draft a WR in rd 2,3, or 4.  I was hoping for one too….but I don’t think drafting a WR in any of those rounds would’ve moved the “likely to win a Super Bowl” meter very much.  
 

Trading for Aiyuk or another big money WR would equate to going all in.  That’s not going to happen.  Salary cap squashed those hopes imo.  
 

Imo, this is a debate is more about Beanes preference to keep the cap in a manageable position as opposed to going all in.  I don’t think this season, considering our current pass rush, would’ve been the right time for that.  If von miller comes out of the gate firing, I could see Beane making a move mid season if one is available 

5 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Maybe, but wasn't Kelce 24 years old during his rookie season? Naturally, that kind of ascendance is exceedingly rare, but there's plenty of runway for a HOF career.

Funny that a KC fan would bring up kincaids age considering Kelces resume prior to turning 25

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

We can win a Super Bowl without a great WR unit.   That’s all that really matters.  If we had poor WRs and a mix of sub par to average TE, RB and OL units, I would think we’d have a discussion for doing things wrong. Instead,  we have above average to good, maybe very good units along with an elite QB.  

So many saying that we’re not helping 17 by not investing more into WR.  I agree that I’d have liked to invest more in WR, but I don’t agree that we aren’t helping him.  I think our run game will be improved and that will open up play action and Josh’s ability to move around and create time out of the pocket.  I think Josh has the ability to transform Coleman, Samuel, Shakir, Kincaid, knox, Cook, Hollins and MVS from unproven unit to a quality unit.  Kincaid, Coleman and Samuel are top 40 picks.  They’re talented-  Coleman and Samuel haven’t had the benefit of playing with 17 yet.  17 can help level them up as he will continue to do with Shakir.  Hollins has never played with a good QB.  MVS has won back to back being WR3-4.

 

I get it.  You guys want better WRs. So do I.  Let’s just not act like we’re ruining 17’s career by not having an elite WR.  We had one and he was a no show more often than not on the biggest stage

I don't know that it is a common idea among those disappointed with the WR room that Josh is not being helped. One has to hope that Knox plays up to his ceiling. Last year, for a variety of reasons, was not his best. Kincaid is a rising star. I like the RB room. So, great. I actually think there appears to be depth and promise on the Oline. If that turns into a dominant unit, that will exponentially help Josh Allen.

 

I think one can criticize the WR room and still like the rest of the offense, and hope that Brady will come up with a strategy that can be unpredictable for defenses and put up a lot of points. It would help if some of those scratch offs at the bottom of the WR room turn out capable of explosive plays downfield.

Edited June 1 by Dr. Who

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

0% of Super Bowls have been won with a Sean McDermott or a Brandon Beane. 

This is the logic of the whole 'top5 WR never won a SB' writ large

[Einstein's Dog]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

And adding a star WR (at the expense of other positions) makes it that much more likely?   
 

Trading for Aiyuk or another big money WR would equate to going all in.  That’s not going to happen.  Salary cap squashed those hopes imo.  
 

Imo, this is a debate is more about Beanes preference to keep the cap in a manageable position as opposed to going all in.  I don’t think this season, considering our current pass rush, would’ve been the right time for that.  If von miller comes out of the gate firing, I could see Beane making a move mid season if one is available 

I think adding a top tier WR changes the whole evaluation of the off-season offensive moves for the better.  It takes the offensive talent to a different level.

 

I believe the moves made allow for a WR and it would not be all in.  They have the room for this WR for several  years.  There is an incredibly young core of offensive playmakers.

 

Lets not forget that cap management is part of Beane's job.  If he really opts to do this radical of a rebuild in Josh's prime, he should face the music.

[NewEra]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I don't know that it is a common idea among those disappointed with the WR room that Josh is not being helped. One has to hope that Knox plays up to his ceiling. Last year, for a variety of reasons, was not his best. Kincaid is a rising star. I like the RB room. So, great. I actually think there appears to be depth and promise on the Oline. If that turns into a dominant unit, that will exponentially help Josh Allen.

 

I think one can criticize the WR room and still like the rest of the offense, and hope that Brady will come up with a strategy that can be unpredictable for defenses and put up a lot of points. It would help if some of those scratch offs at the bottom of the WR room turn out capable of explosive plays downfield.

 

Yeah, I agree.  I’m one of them.  I like our O and I’ve criticized the WR room, it’s just that I realize that the options to seriously upgrade our WR unit after the Diggs trade were far a few in between.  Either give up massive draft loads to move up for a top 10 guy or pay massive money + draft picks to land a vet.  Both require going close to all in which would’ve had negative implications at multiple positions.

 

We weren’t going all in. Options were limited.  I think we’re much better equipped for building a long term powerhouse at the price of our 2024 WR room.  Sometimes GM have to make those decisions.  Recent history shows it’s a viable strategy

17 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I think adding a top tier WR changes the whole evaluation of the off-season offensive moves for the better.  It takes the offensive talent to a different level.

 

I believe the moves made allow for a WR and it would not be all in.  They have the room for this WR for several  years.  There is an incredibly young core of offensive playmakers.

 

Let’s not forget that cap management is part of Beane's job.  If he really opts to do this radical of a rebuild in Josh's prime, he should face the music.

KC fans were saying the same thing about Veach when they traded Hill.  
 

which top tier WR would you have added that wouldn’t have radically changed our cap/draft picks?  
 

If Brian Thomas Jr is the answer, I get it.  He’s the only guy that slid to a spot where we wouldn’t have had to give up the farm…. But I’m not so sure he’s a WR1 either.  Sure he gives us a better deep threat, but I don’t think he’s that type of difference maker for 2024.  
 

who else could we have gotten that would’ve moved that needle?  

[SoonerBillsFan]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah Jimmy Graham wasn't a force on any SB team that I am aware of.    If anything he is a cautionary tale about trying to make a finesse TE like he or Kincaid into your WR1 option.    Seattle tried that and teams just but a boundary CB on him and shut him down.    That exposure basically ended his career as an elite TE. 

 

The OP @Chaos has a point about big, physical receiving targets in the playoffs.    I've said it many times.........when the holding and PI flags get tucked deep in officials pockets in the playoffs........that's when you need physical targets.    

 

That's why Kelce is better in the postseason than the regular season.   He is very physical.

 

But it doesn't have to be a TE.

 

DK Metcalf is a big, physical boundary receiver and he's been great in the playoffs.   112.8 yards per game game 451 yards 17.3 y/r 5 TD's.

 

Davante Adams is another who has been better in the playoffs than the regular season.

 

In 2019 and 2020 the Bills went all-in on the idea of getting WR who get separation and once they got invested in Diggs that kinda' became what their offense was.   And it complicated things in the playoffs where defense's can clutch and grab all day without a flag.    They didn't go in enough on the physicality aspect.  

 

Kelce is slightly bigger than Kincaid, and has shown he can be physical. We also don't know what he has done weight room wise this offseason. BUT I am with you that I really like we went Bigger and more physical this offseason in the WR room, esp with the drafting of Coleman.

[Billl]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Funny that a KC fan would bring up kincaids age considering Kelces resume prior to turning 25

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

Maybe, but wasn't Kelce 24 years old during his rookie season? Naturally, that kind of ascendance is exceedingly rare, but there's plenty of runway for a HOF career.

Sure, but there were approximately 0 people fitting him for a green jacket after his first actual season despite 862 yards and 5 TDs.  If Kincaid hits those numbers next season, and he might, that’s a fantastic second year.  Those still aren’t on par with #1 target numbers, though.  Short of being Gronk, you’d be hard pressed to find a TE who put up monster numbers their second year. That’s not a swipe in any way at Kincaid.  It’s simply the reality of the position.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

And adding a star WR (at the expense of other positions) makes it that much more likely?   
 

Seems to me like the uproar began when we didn’t draft a WR in rd 2,3, or 4.  I was hoping for one too….but I don’t think drafting a WR in any of those rounds would’ve moved the “likely to win a Super Bowl” meter very much.  
 

Trading for Aiyuk or another big money WR would equate to going all in.  That’s not going to happen.  Salary cap squashed those hopes imo.  
 

Imo, this is a debate is more about Beanes preference to keep the cap in a manageable position as opposed to going all in.  I don’t think this season, considering our current pass rush, would’ve been the right time for that.  If von miller comes out of the gate firing, I could see Beane making a move mid season if one is available 

Funny that a KC fan would bring up kincaids age considering Kelces resume prior to turning 25

Adding a star WR? 
 

Yeah, it probably does make it more likely.

 

Adding a second rookie with promise vs career JAGS and camp bodies?

 

Maybe or maybe not. There’s been lots of young WR’s that have made major impacts as rookies. Of course, there’s lots who suck too.

The thing about basically ignoring the WR position for 3 years is you don’t get to then retroactively justify a reset year with a low talent group relative to the rest of the league. 
 

That’s the real problem.

 

It’s the exact same thing as not drafting a QB for years and then trotting out Fitzpatrick and telling the fans, “well what are we supposed to do?”

[Einstein's Dog]

49 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 

KC fans were saying the same thing about Veach when they traded Hill.  
 

which top tier WR would you have added that wouldn’t have radically changed our cap/draft picks?  
 

If Brian Thomas Jr is the answer, I get it.  He’s the only guy that slid to a spot where we wouldn’t have had to give up the farm…. But I’m not so sure he’s a WR1 either.  Sure he gives us a better deep threat, but I don’t think he’s that type of difference maker for 2024.  
 

who else could we have gotten that would’ve moved that needle?  

I would add any of Metcalf/Aiyuk/Sutton/D Adams/DHop..  No to BTJ. 

 

The addition of one of those takes the CB1 and safety and changes the way defenses will play us.  This helps the rest of the offense which I think is pretty solid.  The addition also moves down Hollins/MVS/Claypool.

[Richard Noggin]

11 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

The Bills have a good mix of physicality and finesse in the receiving room now. Kincaid is more physical than people give him credit for and building upon that facet of his game has been part of his pro development plan. He should absolutely be their #1 receiver moving forward.

 

The Bills drafted a receiving target with their 1st pick each of the last two years. That's SERIOUS investment (better late than never). Kincaid should be their WR1 this season, with a variety of targets behind him hopefully offering solutions to whatever DCs devise throughout 2024. People are sleeping on Kincaid imho. 

 

8 hours ago, mrags said:

Right? 
 

I really like Kincaid. But he’s no Kelce. Or Gronk. Or Andrews. He’ll be a fine player but he’s not a game changer imo. 

 

Not yet, no doubt. But was Kelce a game changer in his rookie season? (He appeared in only one game and recorded no stats.) Next two years were solid, but not great. So why can't an even better prospect (without the benefit of hindsight and Andy Reid), playing with Josh Allen, not also ascend? 

[Richard Noggin]

It really feels like fans are mostly shook by "giving" the Chiefs Worthy (and passing on Legette) before selecting Coleman. So it's really about WHO they've invested in (top picks each of the last two drafts), rather than how much they've invested. I guess not double-dipping at WR also ranks for many fans, and I can admit to relentlessly rooting for Franklin on day two and three.

 

As a counter to that mindset, however, I'd ask everyone this question: realistically, would fans have been happier with Franklin at 33 over Coleman? Would his speed and EXCELLENT advanced metrics and former recruiting by Brady have quieted the crowd a bit? 

 

Of course the Diggs trade is a huge part of all of this, but I'd argue it's obvious that the player finally just forced his way out. It became untenable, and the team had to take its medicine. Plus, that dude was an effing GHOST the 2nd half of the last two seasons and always in the playoffs for the Bills. That really mitigates the loss there for me, at least. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Richard Noggin said:

It really feels like fans are mostly shook by "giving" the Chiefs Worthy (and passing on Legette) before selecting Coleman. So it's really about WHO they've invested in (top picks each of the last two drafts), rather than how much they've invested. I guess not double-dipping at WR also ranks for many fans, and I can admit to relentlessly rooting for Franklin on day two and three.

 

As a counter to that mindset, however, I'd ask everyone this question: realistically, would fans have been happier with Franklin at 33 over Coleman? Would his speed and EXCELLENT advanced metrics and former recruiting by Brady have quieted the crowd a bit? 

 

Of course the Diggs trade is a huge part of all of this, but I'd argue it's obvious that the player finally just forced his way out. It became untenable, and the team had to take its medicine. Plus, that dude was an effing GHOST the 2nd half of the last two seasons and always in the playoffs for the Bills. That really mitigates the loss there for me, at least. 

The biggest problem for most fans who won’t stop complaining about this is that in a super deep WR draft that was filled with need picks by the Bills, the Bills didn’t feel like they needed a 2nd WR over a 2nd RB or a safety or a 2nd 3T.