Gronkowski, Kelce, Graham, Ward - Why do fans want want a Randy Moss type?

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

They had Kelce lol.
 

And their receiver group still kinda sucked.

 

Luckily, they had an elite defense that showed up in the regular season and the postseason.

 

Good thing the Bills highly paid defenders have a history of carrying this team to victory in the postseason. Lmao. 
 

If you want, I can go point by point why the 2024 Bills are not the 2023 Chiefs, but you’ll just cry about how it’s not fair that the 3x SB championship team is better than the 3x reigning divisional round participant Bills.

Sorry- didn’t know we were talking about TE’s.  TE’s don’t seem to carry much weight around here when it comes to these conversations-  considering that we have two very good TEs…..yet WR is the only thing we hear about from the whiners.

 

How about those KC whiners last year?  They were fighting the same fight.  They had zero proven WRs-  which is the fight ya’ll are fighting as if it’s the gospel

[NewEra]

5 out of the last 7 Super Bowl champions didn’t have a 1000 yard WR.

 

Also 9 out of the last 16.

 

Get yourself a stud TE to pair with your elite QB and everything gets easier.  I think we have ourselves a stud TE.  Things are going to get easier.  

 

 

[BillsVet]

20 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You’re missing a step.

 

6. Josh Allen plays at or near the best level of his career in the postseason while the rest of his teammates no show, and we wonder why we can’t beat the Chiefs when we have Trent Sherfield alligator-arming passes. 

 

Yeah.  Josh gets blamed.  Has to be included there.    

 

He's not perfect and the throw to Shakir was not a good decision in the Divisional Round game.  

 

This off-season has already served to show more fans here that WR is not a priority for McBeane until it's so obvious a need.  Should have been in 2021 and 2022, but they found other priorities, primarily defensive or lesser important positions to sign/draft.  Then, they missed on WR in 2023 and were forced to take one in 2024.  

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Sorry- didn’t know we were talking about TE’s.  TE’s don’t seem to carry much weight around here when it comes to these conversations-  considering that we have two very good TEs…..yet WR is the only thing we hear about from the whiners.

 

How about those KC whiners last year?  They were fighting the same fight.  They had zero proven WRs-  which is the fight ya’ll are fighting as if it’s the gospel

We can talk about everything, that’s the beauty of the off-season!

 

the Chiefs receiving group as a whole last year was kinda stinky. They led the league in drops. They contributed to one the worst statistical season of Mahomes’ career. This was because the Chiefs had whiffed on Toney, Moore, etc. Their only saving grace at WR was Rashee Rice. But Kelce was still great enough, particularly in the postseason and their defense was great, particularly in the postseason, and they had enough to win the title.

 

I disagree with Brandon Beane’s investment of the WR position for a multitude of reasons. I don’t think his strategy is the way for the Bills to win a Super Bowl. I also think that copying the 2023 Chiefs model with an inferior version of good TE and crummy WR’s is not the way to win the Super Bowl. Having Kincaid try to be a worse version of the arguable greatest TE of all time does not work when you ignore the elite playoff defense the Chiefs proved to have last year and the Bills haven’t proved to have, well, ever. 
 

So yeah. Trying to be the 2023 Chiefs with less HoF players and a worse defense and a worse coaching staff and a worse QB sounds like WC champs again. Sue me. 

5 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Yeah.  Josh gets blamed.  Has to be included there.    

 

He's not perfect and the throw to Shakir was not a good decision in the Divisional Round game.  

 

This off-season has already served to show more fans here that WR is not a priority for McBeane until it's so obvious a need.  Should have been in 2021 and 2022, but they found other priorities, primarily defensive or lesser important positions to sign/draft.  Then, they missed on WR in 2023 and were forced to take one in 2024.  

It’s not McBeane. It’s Beane. He doesn’t value WR’s. He values DL much much much higher. He wants his physical specimen QB to carry garbage WR’s to the promised land. It’s the Carolina way. 

Edited June 1 by FireChans

[mrags]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

So the Bills just need some HOF TEs then?  There must be a ton more lying around compared to a Megatron....amirite??

Exactly what I was thinking. We just need one of the best 2 TEs ever in the league, or a HOF caliber WR. Or one of the most athletic gifted TEs ever. But don’t worry, we don’t need an elite talent catching balls from Josh Allen. lol 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, mrags said:

Exactly what I was thinking. We just need one of the best 2 TEs ever in the league, or a HOF caliber WR. Or one of the most athletic gifted TEs ever. But don’t worry, we don’t need an elite talent catching balls from Josh Allen. lol 

Hey now, we have the second best TE from the 2023 NFL draft class. He’s basically Tony Gonzalez 2.0 already, we just need him to be the next Gronk or Kelce. These are reasonable expectations by year 2.

[mrags]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Hey now, we have the second best TE from the 2023 NFL draft class. He’s basically Tony Gonzalez 2.0 already, we just need him to be the next Gronk or Kelce. These are reasonable expectations by year 2.

Yeah expectations aren’t too lofty for him. 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

I didn't make that argument. You are putting words in my mouth. I stated that you don't need a top 5 receiver. I never said that anyone else argues that you do, although of course there are fans who believe that a top 5 receiver would get you closer to a superbowl.

 

But I might argue that you need a top 5 TE. I think that moves the needle more than a top 5 receiver would.

 

 

That's the thing about a straw man..........you made a claim nobody else was refuting and presented it as relevant.

 

As for needing a top 5 TE........except very recently you have the 2021 season SB Rams/Bengals where NEITHER team featured a big name TE.

 

I think your "top 5 TE"  argument is a lot like the old belief that you needed a pocket passer to win a SB.......in that it was only an argument because the best QB's at the time were pocket passers.

 

Gronk and Kelce have been attached to GOAT candidates Brady and Mahomes.   And it's also an understatement to call them "top 5".    They've never not been top 3 when playing and usually 1-2.

 

Their teams have represented their conference 9 times in the last 10 SB's(8 times AFC and 1 time NFC).   But Brady didn't need a great TE to win SB's.    Four of the 7 he won in his career were without Gronk on the field(including the NE win over Atlanta).  

 

You can't separate the player from the position in that argument.

 

Take Gronk and Kelce out of the equation and it's not clear that a stud TE is all that necessary.   

 

On the other hand, the proof positive about needing two very good receiving targets is that the names change very often..........but the teams that reach SB's nowadays always have them.   Sometimes one of them is a TE.   Sometimes not.   

 

 

[appoo]

For the record, I'd still like a Randy Moss type of WR on the roster

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, appoo said:

For the record, I'd still like a Randy Moss type of WR on the roster

 

 

Yeah I wouldn't be opposed to trading a 4th round pick for a guy and having him immediately put up 1493 yards and 23 TD receptions in his first year with the team and spark the offense to the all time points scored in a season record.

 

[Matt_In_NH]

There is an irrational fascination with wrs among nfl fans.   

[appoo]

4 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

There is an irrational fascination with wrs among nfl fans.   

dunno if I agree with irrational here

 

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, Chaos said:

 

About 50% of Super Bowls won this Century, had Rob Gronwkowski, Travis Kelce, Jimmy Graham or Hines Ward as the leading pass catcher on the winning team.  Winning Super Bowls without a Calvin Johnson or Justin Jefferson level WR1 is not just possible, its actually more common than not. 

Notwithstand the frequent turnover in OC's, the pre-2023 nightmare of an oline, the Bills offense has performed at level consistent with winning a Super Bowl for the last five years.   Its just silly to think the Bills current WR room is going to hold the Bills back.  Stefon Diggs was my favorite Bill other than Allen, since Diggs joined the team. I will miss rooting for him. But the Bills are not going to miss a beat on offense without him.  Josh Allen will just get things done in a different way. 

The Bills ability to get over the hump in the playoffs lies elswere. It has had very little to do with the talent on the offensive roster.  

 

I have been saying this all offseason.  The vast majority of SB winners didn't have that elite WR1 everyone swears we need.  Some did sure...just like some won on defense and a run game because there is more than one way to win a SB.  But most SB winners don't have that elite WR1 and it's in no way a prerequisite to win a SB like some seem to think around here.  

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

“Just like”?  Kelce was coming off a season where he was 3rd in catches, 8th in yards, and 2nd in TDs.  Kincaid is coming off a season where he was 34th in catches, 56th in yards, and in a 46 way tie for 113th in TDs.  Those are two very different scenarios.

 

I like Kincaid and think he’s going to be a good player in the league for a long time, but it’s probably wise to pump the brakes on putting him in the HOF just yet.  If he increases his yardage total next year by 30%, that would give him 875 yards.  That would have ranked him 39th overall and 7th among TEs just ahead of Trey McBride last year.  If he increases it by 40%, he’d be at 942 yards which would have ranked 32nd overall or basically the minimum threshold for being a #1 target in the league.

I didn't project any stats. I'm saying the Bills are relying on Kincaid and Shakir since they are the constants in a year that the Bills overhauled their receiving targets. Similarly, the Chiefs relied on Kelce as a constant as they have overhauled their receiving targets. Nobody is saying Kincaid is as good as Kelce or that he is a future hall of famer.

[Rampant Buffalo]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

 

About 50% of Super Bowls won this Century, had Rob Gronwkowski, Travis Kelce, Jimmy Graham or Hines Ward as the leading pass catcher on the winning team.  Winning Super Bowls without a Calvin Johnson or Justin Jefferson level WR1 is not just possible, its actually more common than not.

 

Let's say you were to define a dynasty team as a team to win at least three Super Bowls. From 1970 until today, every dynasty team has had either A) a Hall of Fame WR, or B) a top 3 all time TE, and a good #1 WR.

 

Why is this? Most people would agree that it's extremely difficult to build a dynasty team, if you don't have a franchise QB. Imagine two offenses. Offense X has a franchise QB + decent receiving targets. Offense Z has a franchise QB and some elite receiving targets. It's not about the QB, and it's not about the receiving targets. It's about both. In comparison with offense X, offense Z is going to take their passing game to the next level. They are amplifying the effect of their franchise QB.  

A good example is the New England Patriots. When Reche Caldwell was Tom Brady's #1 target, their passing game was good. But when Brady's top two targets were Gronkowski and Edelman, their passing game was elite. Gronkowski and Edelman amplified the effect of Tom Brady. Caldwell did not.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

“Just like”?  Kelce was coming off a season where he was 3rd in catches, 8th in yards, and 2nd in TDs.  Kincaid is coming off a season where he was 34th in catches, 56th in yards, and in a 46 way tie for 113th in TDs.  Those are two very different scenarios.

 

I like Kincaid and think he’s going to be a good player in the league for a long time, but it’s probably wise to pump the brakes on putting him in the HOF just yet.  If he increases his yardage total next year by 30%, that would give him 875 yards.  That would have ranked him 39th overall and 7th among TEs just ahead of Trey McBride last year.  If he increases it by 40%, he’d be at 942 yards which would have ranked 32nd overall or basically the minimum threshold for being a #1 target in the league.

I love Kinkaid, but don’t fans think that other DCs watch film and are going to make life much more difficult for these guys? Homers always believe that a player’s improvement is linear … well he’ll be 20% better next season, another 20% better the following season … and on and on.  It’s a fool’s errand to count on that 

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, Rampant Buffalo said:

 

Let's say you were to define a dynasty team as a team to win at least three Super Bowls. From 1970 until today, every dynasty team has had either A) a Hall of Fame WR, or B) a top 3 all time TE, and a good #1 WR.

 

Why is this? Most people would agree that it's extremely difficult to build a dynasty team, if you don't have a franchise QB. Imagine two offenses. Offense X has a franchise QB + decent receiving targets. Offense Z has a franchise QB and some elite receiving targets. It's not about the QB, and it's not about the receiving targets. It's about both. In comparison with offense X, offense Z is going to take their passing game to the next level. They are amplifying the effect of their franchise QB.  

A good example is the New England Patriots. When Reche Caldwell was Tom Brady's #1 target, their passing game was good. But when Brady's top two targets were Gronkowski and Edelman, their passing game was elite. Gronkowski and Edelman amplified the effect of Tom Brady. Caldwell did not.

there’s no consistent analysis here.

 

The same folks that thought the Bills didn’t need an elite #1 in 2019 were super pumped about trading for the Diggs the next year. The same folks who thought the Bills had a great WR group last year and it was awesome now think WR group doesn’t matter when it’s hot garbage.

 

It’s just, “did the Bills do it? Then it must be right.”

Edited June 1 by FireChans

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

I love Kinkaid, but don’t fans think that other DCs watch film and are going to make life much more difficult for these guys? Homers always believe that a player’s improvement is linear … well he’ll be 20% better next season, another 20% better the following season … and on and on.  It’s a fool’s errand to count on that 

Right? 
 

I really like Kincaid. But he’s no Kelce. Or Gronk. Or Andrews. He’ll be a fine player but he’s not a game changer imo. 

[FireChans]

58 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That's the thing about a straw man..........you made a claim nobody else was refuting and presented it as relevant.

 

As for needing a top 5 TE........except very recently you have the 2021 season SB Rams/Bengals where NEITHER team featured a big name TE.

 

I think your "top 5 TE"  argument is a lot like the old belief that you needed a pocket passer to win a SB.......in that it was only an argument because the best QB's at the time were pocket passers.

 

Gronk and Kelce have been attached to GOAT candidates Brady and Mahomes.   And it's also an understatement to call them "top 5".    They've never not been top 3 when playing and usually 1-2.

 

Their teams have represented their conference 9 times in the last 10 SB's(8 times AFC and 1 time NFC).   But Brady didn't need a great TE to win SB's.    Four of the 7 he won in his career were without Gronk on the field(including the NE win over Atlanta).  

 

You can't separate the player from the position in that argument.

 

Take Gronk and Kelce out of the equation and it's not clear that a stud TE is all that necessary.   

 

On the other hand, the proof positive about needing two very good receiving targets is that the names change very often..........but the teams that reach SB's nowadays always have them.   Sometimes one of them is a TE.   Sometimes not.   

 

 

The dynasties skew everything. 
 

I’m old enough to remember when folks on TBD would swear up and down the Bills didn’t need to waste a first round pick on a QB because Brady was a sixth lol.

 

it’s tunnel vision

Edited June 1 by FireChans

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Breakout Squad said:

Except the Minnesota Miracle? Right?!

 

not a closeout game, but yes....he had one good run.