Gronkowski, Kelce, Graham, Ward - Why do fans want want a Randy Moss type?

[Dr. Who]

19 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Like I said.......Beane is like 0-15 in cases where he's expected a player to elevate his game from limited to an expanded role OR when he took a flyer on WR's who at one time were once considered high pedigree or were once productive but weren't productive the season prior.

 

And leaning into his judgement on those things that he's always been wrong about is the primary strategy wrt addressing the WR position this offseason.

 

Calling 0 for forever "not perfect" is a bit of an understatement though,  dontcha think?.

 

 

 

 

Well, you know I basically agree with your takes on this issue, but maybe he's due to get the blind squirrel luck, I dunno.

I'm getting old, so I sure be hoping.

[BigDingus]

On 6/3/2024 at 7:50 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Are you drunk? 

 

You are trying to point out that mistakes happen.........but that because Beane has "done more good than bad" as a GM that his WR decisions shouldn't be questioned?

 

What?

 

His WR choices were to trust that Robert Foster,  Gabe Davis, Lil Dummy, Trent Sherfield and Deonte Harty were all ready for much bigger roles.   None of them were.   And Dawson Knox failed to elevate his game despite great expectations as well.   He's 0 for forever in what he is apparently expecting of Khalil Shakir. 

 

This after the disasters of 2017 and 2018 with Jordan Matthews and Kelvin Benjamin and flyers on pedigree and past success like Corey Coleman, Jeremy Kerley, Terrelle Pryor etc..   

 

Beane's few starter successes at WR have come when he acquired Diggs, Brown and Beasley.........players all proven in starting roles, still consistent and fairly young.    

 

Those were players who projected to play well.........and whaddya know........they played well.

 

That's what I would trust.

 

Literally every flyer he's taken on a WR has FAILED........including Jamison Crowder.

 

But we are to TRUST that guys like MVS and Chase Claypool or KJ Hamler or Andy Isabella are going to bounce back when none of those players I mentioned did?

 

GTFOH 

 

 

Most intelligent post I've seen on here.

 

We've taken flyers on plenty of guys, zero have panned out. The only successes have been proven starters that already established themselves as good players.

 

I have no expectations that Claypool or MVS or Hamler are suddenly going to "figure it out" this year & elevate to top tier WRs.

 

And by "top tier" I'm not talking top 10 guys, I'm doubtful they could even break top 50.

 

Coleman has a shot, but I'm not going in expecting him to be great his 1st year. If he can just be a reliable red zone target I'll be happy. The rest of the squad will likely be gone this time next year.

 

This is the weakest group we've had since Allen's rookie year.

[Bill from NYC]

On 6/3/2024 at 8:50 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Are you drunk? 

 

You are trying to point out that mistakes happen.........but that because Beane has "done more good than bad" as a GM that his WR decisions shouldn't be questioned?

 

What?

 

His WR choices were to trust that Robert Foster,  Gabe Davis, Lil Dummy, Trent Sherfield and Deonte Harty were all ready for much bigger roles.   None of them were.   And Dawson Knox failed to elevate his game despite great expectations as well.   He's 0 for forever in what he is apparently expecting of Khalil Shakir. 

 

This after the disasters of 2017 and 2018 with Jordan Matthews and Kelvin Benjamin and flyers on pedigree and past success like Corey Coleman, Jeremy Kerley, Terrelle Pryor etc..   

 

Beane's few starter successes at WR have come when he acquired Diggs, Brown and Beasley.........players all proven in starting roles, still consistent and fairly young.    

 

Those were players who projected to play well.........and whaddya know........they played well.

 

That's what I would trust.

 

Literally every flyer he's taken on a WR has FAILED........including Jamison Crowder.

 

But we are to TRUST that guys like MVS and Chase Claypool or KJ Hamler or Andy Isabella are going to bounce back when none of those players I mentioned did?

 

GTFOH 

 

 

I still fail to understand how these mistakes at WR, in addition to the entire draft philosophy is more of a reflection on Beane than McDermott, who obviously has the more power of the two.

 

McDermott is a defensive coach and has proven that defense it his top priority since the day he walked into town. After trading away the Mahomes pick (to draft a cornerback) he got Beane hired and continued down the defensive path, even trading up to do so. 

 

My question is: Is Beane really even a football man or a mix of money manager and CEO? 

Edited June 5 by Bill from NYC

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I still fail to understand how these mistakes at WR, in addition to the entire draft philosophy is more of a reflection on Beane than McDermott, who obviously has the more power of the two.

 

McDermott is a defensive coach and has proven that defense it his top priority since the day he walked into town. After trading away the Mahomes pick (to draft a cornerback) he got Beane hired and continued down the defensive path, even trading up to do so. 

 

My question is: Is Beane really even a football man or a mix of money manager and CEO? 

 

 

Beane is still definitely much more executive than personnel man.    

 

I think that he's gotten better wrt personnel in general............but WR has always been his blindest spot.

 

And then this offseason he is asking fans(and the rest of the team for that matter) to take a leap of faith on all these choices he's made that otherwise align perfectly with all the mistakes he's made.    

 

Why should anyone trust that he's not just repeating his mistakes?

 

Don't get me wrong.........I like Samuel.    I like Shakir.    I think Kincaid can become a top flex TE.   Coleman has a high ceiling.

 

But to maximize their skills I think they need to be in the right roles.

 

Samuel and Shakir should be WR3 or WR4..........not WR1 or WR2.

 

Kincaid is being projected by many as the top target in the offense.   But if he's getting CB1 or CB2 attention because the other WR aren't commanding it.........he could suffer the same fate as Jimmy Graham when he went to Seattle.   I don't see Kincaid as Kelce.   He's more of a big, basketball-transition possession WR than the physical force that Kelce is. 

 

And Coleman, IMO,  is raw and lacks the speed/quickness to overcome his lack of polish in other areas.   We saw a little of this back in 1996 when they drafted Eric Moulds.   He wasn't quick/fast or polished.   It took until year 3 for him to come into his own.   Some of that was obviously his attitude because his talent relative to the rest of the WR in the league in 1996-1997 was greater than what Coleman has relative to his peers in the WR deep NFL of today.   But I think his ceiling is in the Davante Adam's category and it took him a few years to develop the savvy to take advantage of his physicality, leaping ability, talented hands etc..

 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

 

 

My question is: Is Beane really even a football man or a mix of money manager and CEO? 

 

He is the general manager. His background isn't as a scout though. He entered the Carolina front office as a football ops guy under Marty Hurney, Dave Gettleman taught him scouting. It is why Beane always surrounds himself with really good, experienced, talent evaluators. Brian Gaine has been a scout in this league 25 years. Terrence Gray has been scouting in the NFL since the mid 00s. Joe Schoen had 15 years experience as a scout when Beane brought him here originally as his assistant in 2017 and even Dan Morgan had 8 years experience as an NFL talent evaluator before joining the Bills (originally to replace Gaine when he got the Texans GM job) in 2018. Beane strengths are as a leader and a strategist. He has always leant heavily on his scouts. There is nothing wrong with that - Howie Roseman is arguably the best GM in football and came from the football ops side of the business before he became a General Manager. Mickey Loomis is a Superbowl winning GM with the Saints too and came from the football ops side. John Lynch is a former player, turned broadcaster, turned GM in San Fran. You don't have to have a scouting background to be a good GM.

 

Why the WR strategy lies at Beane's door has been explained to you many times, you just don't like the explanation. He is in charge of personnel, he makes the calls. And the build of this team VERY closely reflects the build of the Panthers teams under Hurney and Gettlemen when he was earning his chops in that fornt office. They chronically under valued WRs too, while spending significant resources on defensive front seven. Just like Beane has. 

[Chaos]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is the general manager. His background isn't as a scout though. He entered the Carolina front office as a football ops guy under Marty Hurney, Dave Gettleman taught him scouting. It is why Beane always surrounds himself with really good, experienced, talent evaluators. Brian Gaine has been a scout in this league 25 years. Terrence Gray has been scouting in the NFL since the mid 00s. Joe Schoen had 15 years experience as a scout when Beane brought him here originally as his assistant in 2017 and even Dan Morgan had 8 years experience as an NFL talent evaluator before joining the Bills (originally to replace Gaine when he got the Texans GM job) in 2018. Beane strengths are as a leader and a strategist. He has always leant heavily on his scouts. There is nothing wrong with that - Howie Roseman is arguably the best GM in football and came from the football ops side of the business before he became a General Manager. Mickey Loomis is a Superbowl winning GM with the Saints too and came from the football ops side. John Lynch is a former player, turned broadcaster, turned GM in San Fran. You don't have to have a scouting background to be a good GM.

 

Why the WR strategy lies at Beane's door has been explained to you many times, you just don't like the explanation. He is in charge of personnel, he makes the calls. And the build of this team VERY closely reflects the build of the Panthers teams under Hurney and Gettlemen when he was earning his chops in that fornt office. They chronically under valued WRs too, while spending significant resources on defensive front seven. Just like Beane has. 

is Beane somehow obligated to pursue strategies followed by a different organization more than seven years ago? Or can he be expected by fans to adapt and improve?

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, Chaos said:

is Beane somehow obligated to pursue strategies followed by a different organization more than seven years ago? Or can he be expected by fans to adapt and improve?

 

No of course he is not. That wasn't the point. I have been as critical as anyone of him for his failure to adequately address receiver. In fact I was saying it before it was cool. 

[That's No Moon]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:08 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

These teams all have an abundance of top receiving targets.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure Mahomes could get a lawn chair into the top 30

[Mikey152]

On 6/5/2024 at 10:46 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

He is the general manager. His background isn't as a scout though. He entered the Carolina front office as a football ops guy under Marty Hurney, Dave Gettleman taught him scouting. It is why Beane always surrounds himself with really good, experienced, talent evaluators. Brian Gaine has been a scout in this league 25 years. Terrence Gray has been scouting in the NFL since the mid 00s. Joe Schoen had 15 years experience as a scout when Beane brought him here originally as his assistant in 2017 and even Dan Morgan had 8 years experience as an NFL talent evaluator before joining the Bills (originally to replace Gaine when he got the Texans GM job) in 2018. Beane strengths are as a leader and a strategist. He has always leant heavily on his scouts. There is nothing wrong with that - Howie Roseman is arguably the best GM in football and came from the football ops side of the business before he became a General Manager. Mickey Loomis is a Superbowl winning GM with the Saints too and came from the football ops side. John Lynch is a former player, turned broadcaster, turned GM in San Fran. You don't have to have a scouting background to be a good GM.

 

Why the WR strategy lies at Beane's door has been explained to you many times, you just don't like the explanation. He is in charge of personnel, he makes the calls. And the build of this team VERY closely reflects the build of the Panthers teams under Hurney and Gettlemen when he was earning his chops in that fornt office. They chronically under valued WRs too, while spending significant resources on defensive front seven. Just like Beane has. 

 

Why does everyone say Beane doesn't prioritize WR?

 

Beane has been here since 2018. That year, he drafted JA.

 

In 2019, he drafted Ed Oliver at 9. The top WR drafted that year wasn't taken until the 20s. In hindsight, maybe AJ brown could have been the pick but Im not gonna hold that against him. They did miss on Cody Ford in Rd 2 when they could have taken one of several future pro bowl WR...but by the time they picked again in the third, all those guys were gone. They DID draft a decent RB and TE in that Round, though. Then they signed Beasley and Brown to decent deals...probably the best they could do with JA going into his second year.

 

In 2020, they traded their first round pick for Stefon Diggs. Love him or hate him, he was a clear #1 wr in Buffalo for 3.5 seasons (and maybe top 5 in the NFL at points). Then they still drafted two WR in the draft on top of that, including Gabe Davis. Unless you have them taking JJ or Tee Higgins instead of trading for Diggs, GD was the best WR in that draft at any of their picks.

 

In 2021, they signed Sanders to replace Brown. I guess Nico Collins in the 3rd and St Brown in the 4th could be considered "misses" but that's a stretch to me. And to be fair, to take St Brown they would have not gotten Spencer Brown.

 

In 2022, we all thought Gabe was gonna be a star. We also grabbed Shakir, who outside of maybe Christian Watson and George Pickens is arguably the best non-first rounder from that draft.

 

In 2023, they took Kincaid. I guess they could have taken Tank Dell instead of Torrence...or hit on Nicua like the Rams...but I'd love to know how they could have done that draft better.

 

Not gonna rehash 2024.

 

So please, can somebody tell me SPECIFICALLY who they should have drafted or signed at WR? Not just say they ignored it. Because to me it looks like it was a huge focus and they did a decent job at it. Granted, they weren't the Bengals but the Bengals had to suck to get Higgins and Chase and now they cant afford it.

 

 

Edited June 10 by Mikey152

[skibum]

Why do fans want a Randy Moss type? Gee, I don't know. Why would you want a WR who catches everything and can run faster and jump higher than anyone in the league?

[FireChans]

23 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

Why does everyone say Beane doesn't prioritize WR?

 

Beane has been here since 2018. That year, he drafted JA.

 

In 2019, he drafted Ed Oliver at 9. The top WR drafted that year wasn't taken until the 20s. In hindsight, maybe AJ brown could have been the pick but Im not gonna hold that against him. They did miss on Cody Ford in Rd 2 when they could have taken one of several future pro bowl WR...but by the time they picked again in the third, all those guys were gone. They DID draft a decent RB and TE in that Round, though. Then they signed Beasley and Brown to decent deals...probably the best they could do with JA going into his second year.

 

In 2020, they traded their first round pick for Stefon Diggs. Love him or hate him, he was a clear #1 wr in Buffalo for 3.5 seasons (and maybe top 5 in the NFL at points). Then they still drafted two WR in the draft on top of that, including Gabe Davis. Unless you have them taking JJ or Tee Higgins instead of trading for Diggs, GD was the best WR in that draft at any of their picks.

 

In 2021, they signed Sanders to replace Brown. I guess Nico Collins in the 3rd and St Brown in the 4th could be considered "misses" but that's a stretch to me. And to be fair, to take St Brown they would have not gotten Spencer Brown.

 

In 2022, we all thought Gabe was gonna be a star. We also grabbed Shakir, who outside of maybe Christian Watson and George Pickens is arguably the best non-first rounder from that draft.

 

In 2023, they took Kincaid. I guess they could have taken Tank Dell instead of Torrence...or hit on Nicua like the Rams...but I'd love to know how they could have done that draft better.

 

Not gonna rehash 2024.

 

So please, can somebody tell me SPECIFICALLY who they should have drafted or signed at WR? Not just say they ignored it. Because to me it looks like it was a huge focus and they did a decent job at it. Granted, they weren't the Bengals but the Bengals had to suck to get Higgins and Chase and now they cant afford it.

 

 

They should’ve drafted Jordan Addison last year. 

[Mikey152]

Just now, FireChans said:

They should’ve drafted Jordan Addison last year. 

 

Jordan Addison was drafted before their pick AND they would have missed out on Kincaid.

 

How is that a realistic scenario?

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

Jordan Addison was drafted before their pick AND they would have missed out on Kincaid.

 

How is that a realistic scenario?

Kincaid wasn’t our original pick. We traded up for him.  
 

We could’ve traded up two spots higher and got Addison. not unrealistic at all.

Edited June 10 by FireChans

[Mikey152]

12 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Kincaid wasn’t our original pick. We traded up for him.  
 

We could’ve traded up two spots higher and got Addison. not unrealistic at all.

Three spots. Vikings took him at 23. So you have to go to 22. Which was also a WR. So was 21 so was 20. So to trade to one of those spots, the team trading out would have had to been ok missing the WR run. That's not a guarantee. Definitely would have cost alot more than a 4th. 

 

So trading Kincaid and a second or third for Addison and a 4th is your idea for this team?  I'd probably take Kincaid straight up.

Edited June 10 by Mikey152

[NewEra]

47 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Kincaid wasn’t our original pick. We traded up for him.  
 

We could’ve traded up two spots higher and got Addison. not unrealistic at all.

lol-  “we could’ve traded up two spots higher”…….. according to whom?  You can’t just hit a button and trade up.  Not every team is looking to trade back.  What cost us a 4th to move up for Kincaid may have cost us a 2nd for Addison.  I’ll take Kincaid and Torrence over addison every day.  
 

not unrealistic- but not a given that we could have either

[FireChans]

40 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Three spots. Vikings took him at 23. So you have to go to 22. Which was also a WR. So was 21 so was 20. So to trade to one of those spots, the team trading out would have had to been ok missing the WR run. That's not a guarantee. Definitely would have cost alot more than a 4th. 

 

So trading Kincaid and a second or third for Addison and a 4th is your idea for this team?  I'd probably take Kincaid straight up.

I mean, you asked the question. I can give other guys I would’ve liked them to sign.

 

WR’s are getting $35M contracts. Addison would get more on the open market than Kincaid would, today.

 

DJ Chark last year for peanuts over Trent Sherfield/Harty. Thats another. 

Just now, NewEra said:

lol-  “we could’ve traded up two spots higher”…….. according to whom?  You can’t just hit a button and trade up.  Not every team is looking to trade back.  What cost us a 4th to move up for Kincaid may have cost us a 2nd for Addison.  I’ll take Kincaid and Torrence over addison every day.  
 

not unrealistic- but not a given that we could have either

I didn’t say it was a given. I said it wasn’t unrealistic. 

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I mean, you asked the question. I can give other guys I would’ve liked them to sign.

 

WR’s are getting $35M contracts. Addison would get more on the open market than Kincaid would, today.

 

DJ Chark last year for peanuts over Trent Sherfield/Harty. Thats another. 

I didn’t say it was a given. I said it wasn’t unrealistic. 

Do we know that he didn’t try and trade up for Addison?  Or would the GM who traded up for a different pass catcher decide it would be smarter to keep that information close to the vest.  Talking about failed trade ups isn't usually a consideration 

[FireChans]

17 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Do we know that he didn’t try and trade up for Addison?  Or would the GM who traded up for a different pass catcher decide it would be smarter to keep that information close to the vest.  Talking about failed trade ups isn't usually a consideration 

We don’t know if he did or didn’t try. What we do know is he didn’t.

 

I’m just answering the questions mang.

[GoBills808]

30 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I mean, you asked the question. I can give other guys I would’ve liked them to sign.

 

WR’s are getting $35M contracts. Addison would get more on the open market than Kincaid would, today.

 

DJ Chark last year for peanuts over Trent Sherfield/Harty. Thats another. 

I didn’t say it was a given. I said it wasn’t unrealistic. 

Hopkins last yr

[Mikey152]

24 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I mean, you asked the question. I can give other guys I would’ve liked them to sign.

 

WR’s are getting $35M contracts. Addison would get more on the open market than Kincaid would, today.

 

DJ Chark last year for peanuts over Trent Sherfield/Harty. Thats another. 

I didn’t say it was a given. I said it wasn’t unrealistic. 

DJ Chark, that's your answer? Was he gonna play over Gabe or on Special teams? 

 

He put up 35 catches as their #1 WR.

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Hopkins last yr

They tried. He wanted too much money.