Gronkowski, Kelce, Graham, Ward - Why do fans want want a Randy Moss type?

[Maine-iac]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yes the Chiefs. They have drafted way more WR’s. Niners too. And Eagles.

 

That's not true.  We draft as many WR's as the Chiefs.  Last SB the Eagles won thier best pass catcher was (you guessed it) a TE.  They didn't have a WR with over 800 yards.

 

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Cooper Kupp would’ve been the highest drafted WR in Beane’s tenure.
 

If we're not counting the 1st for Diggs or TE's as pass catchers like Kincaid or the obvious which is Coleman this year.

[Gunsgoodtime]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

So you are saying today that Kincaid is elite?

 

If that’s your take and you think Kincaid is already elite, and you’re right, then hey, we’ll be alright. 
 

 

I would love for these people to step outside of TBD and ask other fans who on our team is elite outside of Josh Allen and wait for the crickets.  The homerism is very deep on this board and evidently elite here means "He has the potential " 🤣

Edited June 3 by Gunsgoodtime

[FireChans]

Just now, Maine-iac said:

That's not true.  We draft as many WR's as the Chiefs.  Last SB the Eagles won thier best pass catcher was (you guessed it) a TE.  They didn't have a WR with over 800 yards.

 

If we're not counting the 1st for Diggs or TE's as pass catchers like Kincaid or the obvious which is Coleman this year.

He didn’t draft Diggs. And yeah, I meant prior to this year. 
 

Here are the Chiefs WR’s drafted since 2020:

 

5th - Powell

2nd - Moore

2nd - Rice

1st - Worthy

 

Here are the Bills WR’s drafted since 2020:

6th - Stevenson

5th - Shakir

5th - Shorter

2nd - Coleman

 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

brother, you are 0fer on the big off-season predictions this year.

 

If you start arguing across multiple threads that there’s no way the Bills trade for a WR, it’s only gonna increase the odds, no matter how sound your reasoning is lol

 

I give my opinion and stance on almost everything on this board. Yes, I publicly stated we wouldn't trade Diggs or cut Hines and I took those L's and admitted to those L's. I still do. I was wrong on those.

 

But to act as if those are the only opinions and stances I've taken this year and I've been wrong about everything is highly inaccurate. I've taken more hard-line stances on things that were met with similar opposition as those mistakes and were correct way more than incorrect.

 

And as for this, I'm not saying it's 100% impossible or 100% won't happen. I'm saying it's incredibly unlikely for a number of different reasons and that the idea that's "this has been the plan all along" does not compute with what he's done and what he'd have to do, to do it. And honestly, I'd love to be wrong about this one too.

Edited June 3 by BillsFanForever19

[Maine-iac]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He didn’t draft Diggs. And yeah, I meant prior to this year. 
 

Here are the Chiefs WR’s drafted since 2020:

 

5th - Powell

2nd - Moore

2nd - Rice

1st - Worthy

 

Here are the Bills WR’s drafted since 2020:

6th - Stevenson

5th - Shakir

5th - Shorter

2nd - Coleman

 

 

4 vs 4 and which group do you think puts up better numbers this season?

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

4 vs 4 and which group do you think puts up better numbers this season?

I think every would agree a first, two 2nds, and a fifth is more than a second, two fifths and a 6th.

 

Of those 4 players, KC’s easy.

[Maine-iac]

Just now, FireChans said:

I think every would agree a first, two 2nds, and a fifth is more than a second, two fifths and a 6th.

 

Of those 4 players, KC’s easy.

Again we used a first on Kincaid and Coleman was literally one pick after Worthy.  Used a first on Diggs and in general have more production from the picks we have used then KC regardless of the round they were picked in.  

28 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He didn’t draft Diggs. And yeah, I meant prior to this year. 
 

Here are the Chiefs WR’s drafted since 2020:

 

5th - Powell

2nd - Moore

2nd - Rice

1st - Worthy

 

Here are the Bills WR’s drafted since 2020:

4th - Davis

6th - Stevenson

5th - Shakir

5th - Shorter

2nd - Coleman

 

 

Fixed it.

[Buffalo716]

19 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think every would agree a first, two 2nds, and a fifth is more than a second, two fifths and a 6th.

 

Of those 4 players, KC’s easy.

KC also has been trying to replace all pro Tyreek Hill... Leaving them to use more draft capital 

 

We've had Superstar Stephon diggs here... With a WR who just got 13 million a year...  

 

We were able to spend our assets elsewhere.. Kansas City had mvs as a starter...

 

he's now battling for a roster spot in Buffalo

[MasterStrategist]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1)  For Beane, 100% of the receiving target projections have failed.    It's not a coin flip,  it's UNLIKELY that guys picked where Knox, Davis and Shakir were selected will turn into stud, high volume targets.   That's what a lot of Bills fans don't seem to understand.

 

2)  The reason to not make Shakir WR1 or WR2 is because of what I just said above.   Starting out the season as WR3 or competing for WR3 is a "legitimate shot at hitting".   It's a huge risk with one of Josh Allen's prime seasons to have him at the top of the target chain.    

 

And as much as I like Kincaid,  his success came in part at the expense of success they had with Knox in seasons prior.   Knox had higher passer rating when thrown to in both 2021 and 2022 than Kincaid did in 2023.   Kincaid wasn't a revelation.  Their passer rating when throwing to TE's dropped last year.   Which is my point about Kincaid looking like a failed 1st round pick if he can't be A LOT better in 2024.

 

3) Coleman was 33rd overall and 8th WR off the board.   Other than @HappyDays I can't recall anyone else wanting him with the Bills first pick.   To me, he looks like a project.   I hope I'm wrong but the guys that put up big rookie seasons tend to be guys with physical tools that allow them to get open immediately in the NFL.    Coleman never even had an 800 yard season in college,  he didn't get open consistently and his contested catch numbers were actually quite bad last year.    I used Davante Adams as a ceiling comp,  so I like his overall talent,   but Adams just stunk it up his first two seasons in the NFL and didn't become a superstar until year 5.   That despite also having second round pedigree along with massive college production and having a HOF QB throwing him the ball in the pro's.

Anytime you mention wasting a "Josh Allen" prime season, I just have to laugh.

 

You were high on the Josh Rosen train, back in 2018.  Darnold/Rosen were your top 2 IIRC.

 

So sorry when you like to question Beanes decisions, and act like you have this all figured out/fortune telling how our WRs and offense will do this year.

 

People make mistakes, you should know as noted above (can't imagine sitting with Rosen like you wanted). 

 

But here we are, and I agree with @Chaos, we won't be held back by our weaponry.  This isnt a top 5 playmaking group, coming into the year, but we have plenty of talent with Kincaid/Shakir/Samuel/Coleman/Cook/Knox/Davis/MVS.

 

I could careless about having 2 top 32 pass catchers, as long as we're moving the ball and scoring.  We can spread the wealth and be just as successful as 2020 (best year for Josh), Daboll designed a great offense.  Brady needs to do the same.

Edited June 3 by MasterStrategist

[Sierra Foothills]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

2023:
 

Jayden Reed 2nd round - 64 for 793 and 8 TDs (Better as a rookie than second year Shakir).

 

Dontayvion Wicks 5th round - 39 for 581 and 4 TD’s (Better than rookie year Shakir)

 

2022:

 

Christian Watson 2nd round - 41 for 611 and 7 TD’s. (Better as a rookie than second year Shakir)

 

Romeo Doubs 4th round - 42 for 425 and 3 TD’s. (Better than rookie year Shakir).

 

I mean, there can be lots of reasons the Bills don’t win a Super Bowl. The defense can get rolled by the Chiefs again. Josh could miss the season. 
 

The question is, “what is the best strategy to win the Super Bowl?”

 

If you think Samuel by himself is better than Harty and Sherfield, I COMPLETELY agree. 
 

Again, the question is: is Coleman/Samuel/MVS/Claypool better than Diggs/Davis/Sherfield/Harty? 
 

Did our offensive weapons get better or worse since last year? 
 

IMO, again, the answer is CLEARLY WORSE. Even if Diggs lost a step.

 

And you know what, I wouldn’t really care if the weapons took a little step back this year to set us up for the future. Prior to the Diggs trade, I said it was a guarantee he was gone in 25. Beane ripped the bandaid off a year early. That’s fine by me to sell high and get a cancer outta here.

 

 But again, you could have 2 rookies learning and growing with Josh from a historic draft class that has had us talking WR’s for the last 8 months! Or they could’ve drafted another rookie last year or the year prior. 

 

Instead, Claypool and MVS will be gone in 25, regardless of how they perform. And we will NEED to get another WR because we have painted ourselves into a corner where everyone and their mother knows we are going WR in our first two picks. AGAIN.

Beane’s strategy for WR seems to be “only draft them when you absolutely have to.”

 

IMO, that’s a really bad strategy that the best teams in the NFL DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO.

 

I appreciate your well-considered opinions.

 

I shouldn't have actually asked you for names and numbers because I'm still firm in my belief that it's uncommon for teams to break-in two rookie WRs in the same year and even more uncommon for those rookies to make an impact... so I'm still laboring under the belief that it's the exception and not the rule... but I certainly concede your point was proven in the case of the Packers and I thank you for the excellent documentation.

 

As far as championship roster-building, I don't believe that there's one strategy. The best teams have solid rosters with few weaknesses. Super Bowls have been won in many different ways.

 

It's hard to argue against the opinion that the reason the Bills haven't been able to beat KC is due to the failings of their defense. It's too bad the Bills suffered so many significant defensive injuries at the end of last season. And there's certainly a 2024 scenario whereby the Bills score plenty of points (as they did in 13 Seconds) and lose again due to the losses of Poyer and Hyde.

 

It'll be very interesting to see how things play out and who ends up being right.

 

[FireChans]

8 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

I appreciate your well-considered opinions.

 

I shouldn't have actually asked you for names and numbers because I'm still firm in my belief that it's uncommon for teams to break-in two rookie WRs in the same year and even more uncommon for those rookies to make an impact... so I'm still laboring under the belief that it's the exception and not the rule... but I certainly concede your point was proven in the case of the Packers and I thank you for the excellent documentation.

 

As far as championship roster-building, I don't believe that there's one strategy. The best teams have solid rosters with few weaknesses. Super Bowls have been won in many different ways.

 

It's hard to argue against the opinion that the reason the Bills haven't been able to beat KC is due to the failings of their defense. It's too bad the Bills suffered so many significant defensive injuries at the end of last season. And there's certainly a 2024 scenario whereby the Bills score plenty of points (as they did in 13 Seconds) and lose again due to the losses of Poyer and Hyde.

 

It'll be very interesting to see how things play out and who ends up being right.

 

All I know is that Ive long complained about our WR investments for the last 3 years. 
 

The Beane WR strategy has resulted in:

 

Extending Diggs 2 years before his contract was up because he was the only real talent in the room

 

Relying on inconsistent Gabe Davis on a week to week basis

 

Trent Sherfield whiffing on passes in the playoffs, resulting in a loss.

 

Trading Diggs and absorbing the biggest non-QB dead cap hit in history.

 

Honestly, I have already been proven right, imo. 

[Teddy KGB]

On 6/2/2024 at 12:05 PM, Chaos said:

Coulda shoulda woulda. One of the few patriots who never won a Super Bowl with Brady. Literally a non-factor for ever winning a championship. 

non factor because they lost a sb by a few points ? 
 

okay 🤣

[msw2112]

On 6/1/2024 at 6:53 AM, FireChans said:

What does Hines Ward have to do with Jimmy Graham? 
 

Yes, two HoF TE paired with 2 HoF QB’s won a bunch of titles. 
 

Who is our HoF TE? Kincaid? Knox?

 

Knox is a good TE who has been with the team a few seasons, so the team and the fans have a good idea of what he brings to the table.  He's not a HOF TE.

 

Kincaid was a first round pick and had a very good rookie season.  After a slow start, his usage increased as the season went on.  With a full NFL offseason to bulk him up, a full season of with an new OC who is likely to focus the offense more on him, a greater comfort level with his QB, and the removal of Diggs from the offense (meaning there are a lot more targets to go around), Kincaid is in prime position to have an excellent season and an excellent career.  Josh Allen is a HOF QB.  Will Kincaid be a HOF TE?  Nobody knows.  But if he stays healthy, chances are that he'll be one of the top receiving TE's in the NFL and, per the OP, other teams with top receiving TE's have won the Super Bowl, even in the absence of a great WR.  It's not an unreasonable point to raise.  I agree that throwing Hines Ward, a slot WR into the argument is a bit confusing, as he was not a TE, but I get the rest.

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Anytime you mention wasting a "Josh Allen" prime season, I just have to laugh.

 

You were high on the Josh Rosen train, back in 2018.  Darnold/Rosen were your top 2 IIRC.

 

So sorry when you like to question Beanes decisions, and act like you have this all figured out/fortune telling how our WRs and offense will do this year.

 

People make mistakes, you should know as noted above (can't imagine sitting with Rosen like you wanted). 

 

But here we are, and I agree with @Chaos, we won't be held back by our weaponry.  This isnt a top 5 playmaking group, coming into the year, but we have plenty of talent with Kincaid/Shakir/Samuel/Coleman/Cook/Knox/Davis/MVS.

 

I could careless about having 2 top 32 pass catchers, as long as we're moving the ball and scoring.  We can spread the wealth and be just as successful as 2020 (best year for Josh), Daboll designed a great offense.  Brady needs to do the same.

 

 

I liked the Josh Allen pick,  said so at the time and even tried to talk some people off the ledge after the selection and have always been a big "build around" Allen guy.   It's not anything I ever had to come around to.  I am a ceiling-play guy when it comes to premium positions in general.       

 

But even if I had questioned the Josh Allen pick like yourself IIRC.......by 2020 it was clear to anyone with eyes that he was great.   Is it different if someone like Gunner Bill says it?   No.  He hated the pick like you.

 

It has no bearing on anyone wanting to not waste a season of his prime NOW.

[Einstein]

On 6/2/2024 at 12:35 PM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

No offense but that response gets a huge eye roll. so what were their excuses in 2020, 2021 and 2022? No rings either. 
 

Bengals no rings with Chase, Higgins and Boyd.

 

Miami, zero division titles with Hill and Waddle.

 

No rings in Philly with those WR’s.

If you have any 2 of these things, your chances of winning a Super Bowl are very high. Have 3 (barring injuries) and you are going to be in the Super Bowl. 

1. All Pro QB

2. All Pro Head Coach

3. All Pro WR

4. All Pro Defense

5. HOF Tight End

Look at the past 10 Super Bowl winners:

Chiefs - They have #1, #2 and #5.

Rams - They had #1, #2 and #3.
Bucs - They had #1, #3, #4, and #5.
Patriots - They had #1, #2, #5.

Eagles - The lone exception. 
Broncos - They had #1, #3 and #4.
Seahawks - They had #1, #2, #4. 

 

 

[Logic]

In a league where passing is emphasized and in which the rules are set up to encourage its success...

The most important thing to do is get a quarterback.

The next most important thing to do is protect him so he stays upright and healthy.

The third most important thing to do is to get him some good players to throw the ball to.

The Bills have indisputably achieved goal #1. They seem quite likely to have achieved goal #2. I am uncertain that they have fully achieved goal #3, but I fear they may not have. Others are optimistic that they have done so.

We can argue all day about TEs vs WRs, having one or two elite options vs having a grab bag of different skillsets, etc, but at the end of the day, the proof will be in the pudding. There will once again come a moment in the playoffs where the Bills need offensive players OTHER than Josh Allen to step up. Will anyone be ready to answer the call? Tight end, running back, receiver, I personally don't really care. I just want 2024 not to be "The Solo Josh Allen Show: Remix". I'm sick of that show. 

Time will tell if Beane has gone about the building of the offense correctly and to sufficient effect. I am less optimistic than others, but we'll all see soon enough.

**Edit: And before anyone says it: Yes, it would be REALLY nice if some defensive guys started stepping up, too. All the offensive firepower in the world won't do a thing if our defense can't learn to stop a nosebleed in the playoffs.**

Edited June 3 by Logic

[FireChans]

46 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

 

Knox is a good TE who has been with the team a few seasons, so the team and the fans have a good idea of what he brings to the table.  He's not a HOF TE.

 

Kincaid was a first round pick and had a very good rookie season.  After a slow start, his usage increased as the season went on.  With a full NFL offseason to bulk him up, a full season of with an new OC who is likely to focus the offense more on him, a greater comfort level with his QB, and the removal of Diggs from the offense (meaning there are a lot more targets to go around), Kincaid is in prime position to have an excellent season and an excellent career.  Josh Allen is a HOF QB.  Will Kincaid be a HOF TE?  Nobody knows.  But if he stays healthy, chances are that he'll be one of the top receiving TE's in the NFL and, per the OP, other teams with top receiving TE's have won the Super Bowl, even in the absence of a great WR.  It's not an unreasonable point to raise.  I agree that throwing Hines Ward, a slot WR into the argument is a bit confusing, as he was not a TE, but I get the rest.

What year did Jimmy Graham win a Super Bowl again?

 

The rest of the TE’s listed are the two best TE’s of all time. If Kincaid is a Jimmy Graham-type, that just proves he’s not enough to win a Super Bowl, following this logic.

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

non factor because they lost a sb by a few points ? 
 

okay 🤣

Yes. keyword = lost. In the context of the Patriots winnig six super bowls without him. 

[Alphadawg7]

18 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

That's not true.  We draft as many WR's as the Chiefs.  Last SB the Eagles won thier best pass catcher was (you guessed it) a TE.  They didn't have a WR with over 800 yards.

 

If we're not counting the 1st for Diggs or TE's as pass catchers like Kincaid or the obvious which is Coleman this year.

 

He likes to cherry pick things to make false conclusions that support his negative bias.  Of course Diggs and Kincaid count...but he won't acknowledge that because if he does it means the Bills have used their FIRST pick in the draft on a weapon for Josh in 3 of the past 5 drafts.  He will do anything to not have to admit that.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

What year did Jimmy Graham win a Super Bowl again?

 

The rest of the TE’s listed are the two best TE’s of all time. If Kincaid is a Jimmy Graham-type, that just proves he’s not enough to win a Super Bowl, following this logic.

Super Bowl has been dominated by Brady and Mahomes, so it inflates TE success. But the Eagles also won a Super Bowl with Ertz as their leading receiver. 

 

TE as WR1 is a proven success. You should also fill WR with talent but WR1 can definitely be a TE.