Chaos Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) About 50% of Super Bowls won this Century, had Rob Gronwkowski, Travis Kelce, Jimmy Graham or Hines Ward as the leading pass catcher on the winning team. Winning Super Bowls without a Calvin Johnson or Justin Jefferson level WR1 is not just possible, its actually more common than not. Notwithstand the frequent turnover in OC's, the pre-2023 nightmare of an oline, the Bills offense has performed at level consistent with winning a Super Bowl for the last five years. Its just silly to think the Bills current WR room is going to hold the Bills back. Stefon Diggs was my favorite Bill other than Allen, since Diggs joined the team. I will miss rooting for him. But the Bills are not going to miss a beat on offense without him. Josh Allen will just get things done in a different way. The Bills ability to get over the hump in the playoffs lies elswere. It has had very little to do with the talent on the offensive roster. Edited June 1 by Chaos Added bold to emphasis the main points 4 8 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Hines Ward was a really good receiver. I'm not sure including him helps prove your point. He was never the best receiver in the league, but he had a stretch of elite play. He went to four pro bowls and was 2nd team all pro three times. He is also 28th all time in receiving yards. That being said, I agree with you. You don't need a top 5 receiver to go to and win a superbowl. All the best receivers last year were sitting on the couch watching the Superbowl with the rest of us. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 13 minutes ago, Chaos said: About 50% of Super Bowls won this Century, had Rob Gronwkowski, Travis Kelce, Jimmy Graham or Hines Ward as the leading pass catcher on the winning team. Winning Super Bowls without a Calvin Johnson or Justin Jefferson level WR1 is not just possible, its actually more common than not. Notwithstand the frequent turnover in OC's, the pre-2023 nightmare of an oline, the Bills offense has performed at level consistent with winning a Super Bowl for the last five years. Its just silly to think the Bills current WR room is going to hold the Bills back. Stefon Diggs was my favorite Bill other than Allen, since Diggs joined the team. I will miss rooting for him. But the Bills are not going to miss a beat on offense without him. Josh Allen will just get things done in a different way. The Bills ability to get over the hump in the playoffs lies elswere. It has had very little to do with the talent on the offensive roster. So the Bills just need some HOF TEs then? There must be a ton more lying around compared to a Megatron....amirite?? 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 14 minutes ago, Chaos said: About 50% of Super Bowls won this Century, had Rob Gronwkowski, Travis Kelce, Jimmy Graham or Hines Ward as the leading pass catcher on the winning team. Winning Super Bowls without a Calvin Johnson or Justin Jefferson level WR1 is not just possible, its actually more common than not. Notwithstand the frequent turnover in OC's, the pre-2023 nightmare of an oline, the Bills offense has performed at level consistent with winning a Super Bowl for the last five years. Its just silly to think the Bills current WR room is going to hold the Bills back. Stefon Diggs was my favorite Bill other than Allen, since Diggs joined the team. I will miss rooting for him. But the Bills are not going to miss a beat on offense without him. Josh Allen will just get things done in a different way. The Bills ability to get over the hump in the playoffs lies elswere. It has had very little to do with the talent on the offensive roster. What does Hines Ward have to do with Jimmy Graham? Yes, two HoF TE paired with 2 HoF QB’s won a bunch of titles. Who is our HoF TE? Kincaid? Knox? 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 7 minutes ago, MJS said: All the best receivers last year were sitting on the couch watching the Superbowl with the rest of us. Actually what the statistics tell us over the past decade plus is that you need TWO top receiving targets to even reach a SB. I know you don't follow the rest of the league closely but Brandon Aiyuk had 1300+ yards on 18 yards per catch last year. He was an All Pro and one of THE BEST and he wasn't sitting on the couch on SB Sunday. Neither was Deebo Samuel.......a recent All Pro who put up nearly 60 yards per game receiving as the THIRD most targeted receiver in the SF offense behind Aiyuk and Kittle and just ahead of McCaffrey. Rashee Rice and Kelce both finished top 32 in receiving yards in the NFL. Just as Juju and Kelce had the year before. These teams all have an abundance of top receiving targets. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: So the Bills just need some HOF TEs then? There must be a ton more lying around compared to a Megatron....amirite?? Not sure you get the point. But if I am going pine for something as a fan, the evidence would indicate we should want a HOF TE rather than adding another WR. Also maybe Kincaid can become that guy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 2 minutes ago, Chaos said: Not sure you get the point. But if I am going pine for something as a fan, the evidence would indicate we should want a HOF TE rather than adding another WR. Also maybe Kincaid can become that guy. Why stop at HOF TE? Why don't they have a roster exclusively filled with HOFers at every position EXCEPT WR??? 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 27 minutes ago, MJS said: Hines Ward was a really good receiver. I'm not sure including him helps prove your point. He was never the best receiver in the league, but he had a stretch of elite play. He went to four pro bowls and was 2nd team all pro three times. He is also 28th all time in receiving yards. That being said, I agree with you. You don't need a top 5 receiver to go to and win a superbowl. All the best receivers last year were sitting on the couch watching the Superbowl with the rest of us. Ward was a great player. No question about it. Not a single thread post I have seen clamoring for improving the WR room, has indicated that we need a Hines Ward type though. 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Why stop at HOF TE? Why don't they have a roster exclusively filled with HOFers at every position EXCEPT WR??? Its clear you are being intentionally obtuse. Get a life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) 32 minutes ago, FireChans said: What does Hines Ward have to do with Jimmy Graham? Yes, two HoF TE paired with 2 HoF QB’s won a bunch of titles. Who is our HoF TE? Kincaid? Knox? Yeah Jimmy Graham wasn't a force on any SB team that I am aware of. If anything he is a cautionary tale about trying to make a finesse TE like he or Kincaid into your WR1 option. Seattle tried that and teams just but a boundary CB on him and shut him down. That exposure basically ended his career as an elite TE. The OP @Chaos has a point about big, physical receiving targets in the playoffs. I've said it many times.........when the holding and PI flags get tucked deep in officials pockets in the playoffs........that's when you need physical targets. That's why Kelce is better in the postseason than the regular season. He is very physical. But it doesn't have to be a TE. DK Metcalf is a big, physical boundary receiver and he's been great in the playoffs. 112.8 yards per game game 451 yards 17.3 y/r 5 TD's. Davante Adams is another who has been better in the playoffs than the regular season. In 2019 and 2020 the Bills went all-in on the idea of getting WR who get separation and once they got invested in Diggs that kinda' became what their offense was. And it complicated things in the playoffs where defense's can clutch and grab all day without a flag. They didn't go in enough on the physicality aspect. Edited June 1 by BADOLBILZ 5 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Actually what the statistics tell us over the past decade plus is that you need TWO top receiving targets to even reach a SB. I know you don't follow the rest of the league closely but Brandon Aiyuk had 1300+ yards on 18 yards per catch last year. He was an All Pro and one of THE BEST and he wasn't sitting on the couch on SB Sunday. Neither was Deebo Samuel.......a recent All Pro who put up nearly 60 yards per game receiving as the THIRD most targeted receiver in the SF offense behind Aiyuk and Kittle and just ahead of McCaffrey. Rashee Rice and Kelce both finished top 32 in receiving yards in the NFL. Just as Juju and Kelce had the year before. These teams all have an abundance of top receiving targets. I specifically mentioned top 5 receivers. Aiyuk was not a top 5 receiver. He was 7th in yards and 19th in TD's. And what has Aiyuk done in the postseason? His postseason stats are pedestrian. Just like Steph Diggs had pedestrian postseason stats all the time despite being elite in the regular season. And we are talking receivers, not TE's. I think there is better correlation to getting to the superbowl with elite TE's versus receivers. Top 32 in receiving? Really? That does not make you an elite receiver. In no world was Rice an elite receiver. And what do you mean I don't follow the rest of the league? I do. Why would you make that assumption? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nedboy7 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Kincaid will probably become a HOF TE. He had a historic top 10 rookie season. We didn’t have a #1 second half of last season when we actually started stacking wins. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 1 minute ago, Chaos said: Ward was a great player. No question about it. Not a single thread post I have seen clamoring for improving the WR room, has indicated that we need a Hines Ward type though. Its clear you are being intentionally obtuse. Get a life. I have quite a life. Currently it is blowing up your poor constructed argument. I can't blamed fore that--least of all by you, its creator. 2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah Jimmy Graham wasn't a force on any SB team that I am aware of. If anything he is a cautionary tale about trying to make a finesse TE like he or Kincaid into your WR1 option. Seattle tried that and teams just but a boundary CB on him and shut him down. That exposure basically ended his career as an elite TE. The OP @Chaos has a point about big, physical receiving targets in the playoffs. I've said it many times.........when the holding and PI flags get tucked deep in officials pockets in the playoffs........that's when you need physical targets. That's why Kelce is better in the postseason than the regular season. He is very physical. But it doesn't have to be a TE. DK Metcalf is a big, physical boundary receiver and he's been great in the playoffs. 112.8 yards per game game 451 yards 17.3 y/r 5 TD's. Davante Adams is another who has been better in the playoffs than the regular season. In 2019 and 2020 the Bills went all-in on the idea of getting WR who get separation and once they got invested in Diggs that kinda' became what their offense was. And it complicated things in the playoffs where defense's can clutch and grab all day without a flag. They didn't go in enough on the physicality aspect. Diggs was a liability of the playoffs. whole career--awful in closeout games. Total. dud. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyBills Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 37 minutes ago, FireChans said: What does Hines Ward have to do with Jimmy Graham? Yes, two HoF TE paired with 2 HoF QB’s won a bunch of titles. Who is our HoF TE? Kincaid? Knox? Kincaid could and should be a 1k yard TE year in and out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 6 minutes ago, JerseyBills said: Kincaid could and should be a 1k yard TE year in and out. Do you think he’s a HoF TE? 13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah Jimmy Graham wasn't a force on any SB team that I am aware of. If anything he is a cautionary tale about trying to make a finesse TE like he or Kincaid into your WR1 option. Seattle tried that and teams just but a boundary CB on him and shut him down. That exposure basically ended his career as an elite TE. The OP @Chaos has a point about big, physical receiving targets in the playoffs. I've said it many times.........when the holding and PI flags get tucked deep in officials pockets in the playoffs........that's when you need physical targets. That's why Kelce is better in the postseason than the regular season. He is very physical. But it doesn't have to be a TE. DK Metcalf is a big, physical boundary receiver and he's been great in the playoffs. 112.8 yards per game game 451 yards 17.3 y/r 5 TD's. Davante Adams is another who has been better in the playoffs than the regular season. In 2019 and 2020 the Bills went all-in on the idea of getting WR who get separation and once they got invested in Diggs that kinda' became what their offense was. And it complicated things in the playoffs where defense's can clutch and grab all day without a flag. They didn't go in enough on the physicality aspect. I mean all this is well and good about “physical” WR’s but Aiyuk isn’t particularly physical IMO. Samuel you can make an argument I suppose but he plays much bigger than he is. And sure, the Niners lost, but imo it wasn’t because of their WR’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 1 minute ago, MJS said: I specifically mentioned top 5 receivers. Aiyuk was not a top 5 receiver. He was 7th in yards and 19th in TD's. And what has Aiyuk done in the postseason? His postseason stats are pedestrian. Just like Steph Diggs had pedestrian postseason stats all the time despite being elite in the regular season. And we are talking receivers, not TE's. I think there is better correlation to getting to the superbowl with elite TE's versus receivers. Top 32 in receiving? Really? That does not make you an elite receiver. In no world was Rice an elite receiver. And what do you mean I don't follow the rest of the league? I do. Why would you make that assumption? 1) Basically, you and @Chaos have created a couple straw man arguments. Weaker versions of the factually supported argument about needing two very good WR targets to reach a SB. Where did anyone say the Bills needed a "Randy Moss"? Nobody said that. Where did anyone say that a "top 5" receiver was needed to reach a SB? Who said that, specifically? Anyone? Let alone it being some broad discussion point. You two created those false narratives so you could dispel them. 2) And yes, if you have two of the top 32 yardage producing WR in the league, you are doing damn good. Usually 4-5 teams have that every year and they are teams like KC, SF, Philly who have been reaching SB's. The Bills had two in the top 32 in 2020. That was the closest they've come to a SB. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 15 minutes ago, MJS said: I specifically mentioned top 5 receivers. Aiyuk was not a top 5 receiver. He was 7th in yards and 19th in TD's. And what has Aiyuk done in the postseason? His postseason stats are pedestrian. Just like Steph Diggs had pedestrian postseason stats all the time despite being elite in the regular season. And we are talking receivers, not TE's. I think there is better correlation to getting to the superbowl with elite TE's versus receivers. Top 32 in receiving? Really? That does not make you an elite receiver. In no world was Rice an elite receiver. And what do you mean I don't follow the rest of the league? I do. Why would you make that assumption? How many teams win without a top 32 receiver? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyBills Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 10 minutes ago, FireChans said: Do you think he’s a HoF TE? I mean all this is well and good about “physical” WR’s but Aiyuk isn’t particularly physical IMO. Samuel you can make an argument I suppose but he plays much bigger than he is. And sure, the Niners lost, but imo it wasn’t because of their WR’s. I have no clue, he played 1 season, he has the potential to be 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 4 minutes ago, FireChans said: Do you think he’s a HoF TE? I mean all this is well and good about “physical” WR’s but Aiyuk isn’t particularly physical IMO. Samuel you can make an argument I suppose but he plays much bigger than he is. And sure, the Niners lost, but imo it wasn’t because of their WR’s. Graham? Hell no. As for Aiyuk........It takes more than 2-3 wins to reach a SB. It would be nice to have a WR corps full of guys whose game translates to both regular and post seasons.........but to get good playoff positioning you still want guys who win you a lot of regular season games. Case in point with Diggs. Last year in the Miami @ Buffalo game the Dolphins were clutching and grabbing Diggs early and got flagged. So they had to give him space and he WENT OFF. That's how the regular season works. Guys who get open are more valuable then. You really need to win A LOT of games to get into the tournament. And agree.........what the Niners were is just another example of how important receiving talent is to getting to a SB. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 2 minutes ago, JerseyBills said: I have no clue, he played 1 season, he has the potential to be 1 If he’s a HoF TE, then I have much less concern about the Bills receiving group. Statistically, it’s not likely though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakout Squad Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 32 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I have quite a life. Currently it is blowing up your poor constructed argument. I can't blamed fore that--least of all by you, its creator. Diggs was a liability of the playoffs. whole career--awful in closeout games. Total. dud. Except the Minnesota Miracle? Right?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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