Doc Brown Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 5 hours ago, PBF81 said: Edit: BTW, I just clicked on that Niagara Gazette link hoping to find the source, unless I missed it it wasn't included. Link works fine for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 9 hours ago, Doc Brown said: I wouldn't just make it up. From the Niagara Gazette. Eerily similar offensive output with a tiny nod to Brady. More run production under Brady and more pass production under Dorsey. The turnovers is the main area that stands out among this graph. Also, you can't ignore the 22 drops under Brady compared to only 9 under Dorsey (per PFF). Brady Dorsey Games 9 10 Points 27.1 26.2 Total Yards 377.9 370.1 Touchdowns 27 30 TDs per drive 31.4% 31.2% Points per drive 46.5% 44.8% Passing attempts 34.2 35 Passing yards 221.4 253.6 Rushing attempts 36.8 25.4 Rushing Yards 161.2 116.5 Turnovers 9 18 This before-and-after breakdown basically illustrates the Bills offense employing more balance (without sacrificing passing attempts) and more ball security under Brady, while surrendering about 1 ypa. They tightened things up, found balance, played it closer to the vest, and won a lot more games. Scoring and wins went up, while turnovers went down. That's fundamentally more sound football being played under Brady. (I acknowledge room for more nuance than this, but the measurable productivity was what it was.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampant Buffalo Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 On 5/29/2024 at 11:34 AM, Ethan in Cleveland said: I'd prefer he was used as Beasley was in 2020. That's about 80 receptions for almost 1000 yards. The perfect chain mover underneath. That would mean his target volume would jump quite a bit but his YPC would drop running more underneath routes. Yes he can play outside but there are others than can play outside. I have a tendency to want to emulate Tom Brady and Pats offense. That means a great TE Gronk (Kincaid and Knox in the aggregate) and a weapon in the slot - Edelman and Welker (Shakir). With Bills run game and a couple outside threats, this offense should be able to run so many different formations and plays with the same personel. Should keep defenses guessing. Good post, and I gave it a thumbs up. But there is one thing I see a bit differently. Let's say there are two women, in whom you'd be moderately interested. They both like you. That's fine, but it's not as good as if the woman of your dreams likes you. Let's say you have two TEs: one very good, the other reasonably good. That's fine--nothing wrong with that--but it's not the same as having the best TE ever. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampant Buffalo Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 11 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said: This before-and-after breakdown basically illustrates the Bills offense employing more balance (without sacrificing passing attempts) and more ball security under Brady, while surrendering about 1 ypa. They tightened things up, found balance, played it closer to the vest, and won a lot more games. Scoring and wins went up, while turnovers went down. That's fundamentally more sound football being played under Brady. (I acknowledge room for more nuance than this, but the measurable productivity was what it was.) Below is the 2023 season. Yards per pass attempt Dorsey: 7.2 Brady: 6.5 Yards per rush attempt Dorsey: 4.6 Brady: 4.4 Percentage of offensive plays which were passing plays Dorsey: 58% Brady: 48% Diggs was a much worse player late season, than he'd been in September and October. That's going to drag down Brady's numbers, through no fault of his own. One good thing about Brady: the offense turned the ball over about half as often under him, as it had under Dorsey. The Brady number that's of biggest concern to me is 6.5 yards per pass attempt. Trent Edwards' career average is 6.5 yards per pass attempt. For Losman it's 6.6. Josh Allen is the best QB in Bills' history. We need him to produce at a higher level than Edwards or Losman. Obviously. Also: when you have a QB like Allen, you need to pass the ball more than 48% of the time. A running game which averages 4.4 yards per carry is reasonable. But, if a coach sees 4.4, it's not as though he should become all googly eyed and star struck, to the point where he says, "Wow! We really need to be doing this with more than half of our offensive snaps!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 6 hours ago, PBF81 said: For example, Allen's carries doubled from just under 5 (as I recall) to nearly 10, almost double. Is that really what we want our generationally talented QB with a cannon arm to be focusing on? I think the answer is yes, we want Allen running much more than the 4.6 attempts per game he was getting in the 10 games with Dorsey last year. The team was 5-5 and not playing winning football with that strategy. As I pointed out in another thread, Allen's "heavy" usage as a runner in the final seven games of the season after Brady took over was not out of the ordinary for the Bills and Allen. The low 4.8 ypc was the anomaly and that new game plan the Bills tried clearly failed as they were 5-5 and looking down the hole of missing the playoffs entirely. I do think the Bills will once again try and employ an early season game plan of less carriers for Allen. So far that has not proven to be a successful game plan outside of the 2020 season which I'm not sure we can successfully try and copy due to the unique circumstances of that year. Not just covid, but the Bills taking the league by surprise with the addition of Diggs and the emergence of Allen. Also don't think teams had totally grasped how to defend QB's like Allen and Mahomes yet in 2020. Also, in 2020, Allen ran more early in the season (first 10 games 7.2 attempts per game) and then closed the season running less (final 6 games 5.0 attempts per game). Complete opposite of what we have been seeing the last three seasons where Allen increases his carry load later in the season. Bills win/loss record in ( ) 2019- first 10 games 7.4 attempts per game (6-4) 2019- final 6 games 5.8 attempts per game (4-2) 2020- first 10 games 7.2 attempts per game (7-3) 2020- final 6 games 5.0 attempts per game (6-0) 2021- first 10 games 6.1 attempts per game (6-4) 2021- final 7 games 8.7 attempts per game (5-2) 2022- first 10 games 7.1 attempts per game (7-3) 2022- final 6 games 8.8 attempts per game (6-0) 2023- first 10 games 4.8 attempts per game (5-5) 2023- final 7 games 9.0 attempts per game (6-1) The trend the last three seasons under three different offensive coordinators has been Allen attempting 9 rushes per game to close out the final stretch of the season. For that to be the case under three different OC's is pretty telling. Only twice Allen has averaged 5.0 or less attempts per game and they yielded drastically different results for the W/L column. Last year was the only year Allen averaged less than 6 attempts per game over the first 10 games of the season. Only twice has he even been under 7 attempts per game in the first 10 games, over the last five seasons. The other was 6.1 attempts in 2021 and lead to a 6-4 record, not as good as the 7-3 records when Allen had over 7 attempts per game. Edited June 2 by Sammy Watkins' Rib 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Noggin Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 4 minutes ago, Rampant Buffalo said: Below is the 2023 season. Yards per pass attempt Dorsey: 7.2 Brady: 6.5 Yards per rush attempt Dorsey: 4.6 Brady: 4.4 Percentage of offensive plays which were passing plays Dorsey: 58% Brady: 48% Diggs was a much worse player late season, than he'd been in September and October. That's going to drag down Brady's numbers, through no fault of his own. One good thing about Brady: the offense turned the ball over about half as often under him, as it had under Dorsey. The Brady number that's of biggest concern to me is 6.5 yards per pass attempt. Trent Edwards' career average is 6.5 yards per pass attempt. For Losman it's 6.6. Josh Allen is the best QB in Bills' history. We need him to produce at a higher level than Edwards or Losman. Obviously. Also: when you have a QB like Allen, you need to pass the ball more than 48% of the time. A running game which averages 4.4 yards per carry is reasonable. But, if a coach sees 4.4, it's not as though he should become all googly eyed and star struck, to the point where he says, "Wow! We really need to be doing this with more than half of our offensive snaps!" What about points per game and turnovers per game? And win-loss record? Brady did seemingly stabilize the offense and field a less self-destructive attack. Everything you share here is worthy of review, but isn't the bigger picture also important? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 7 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: Bills win/loss record in ( ) 2020- first 10 games 7.2 attempts per game (7-3) 2020- final 6 games 5.0 attempts per game (6-0) This should be the goal. It was also the year we pry surrounded Josh with the best combination of pass protection and weapons. Diggs, Beasley, and Brown were still at the peak of their careers. Davis was a great WR4. Defenses still trying to figure out how to play Josh Allen and no fans in the crowd also helped so if you want to see Josh at his best again we need another world pandemic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 10 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: This should be the goal. It was also the year we pry surrounded Josh with the best combination of pass protection and weapons. Diggs, Beasley, and Brown were still at the peak of their careers. Davis was a great WR4. Defenses still trying to figure out how to play Josh Allen and no fans in the crowd also helped so if you want to see Josh at his best again we need another world pandemic. many, many factors that will be hard to duplicate. The bolded, like the pandemic, is basically impossible to duplicate. We see players all the time now have career years early in their careers and then never reach those same heights again. Mahomes in 2018 Jackson in 2019 Allen in 2020 They all have in common in that they were breakout seasons in their second or third year and to this date they are their best statical seasons by a wide margin. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampant Buffalo Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 3 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said: What about points per game and turnovers per game? And win-loss record? Brady did seemingly stabilize the offense and field a less self-destructive attack. Everything you share here is worthy of review, but isn't the bigger picture also important? Here are some more numbers Turnovers per game Dorsey: 1.8 Brady: 1 Offensive plays per game Dorsey: 60.4 Brady: 81 Brady had about one third more offensive plays per game than Dorsey. Why? How did he get his hands on an extra 20 offensive plays per game? The first thought which came to my head was, Brady's offense had fewer turnovers. So, you'd expect it to have more offensive plays. But if you had 0.8 fewer turnovers per game, would you really expect that to get you an extra 20 offensive plays per game? I wouldn't. I just don't know where Brady's 20 extra offensive plays per game are coming from. But however he got hold of those 20 extra plays, they sure helped some of his other stats. In particular, his points per game stat received a big boost. I look at 6.5 yards per pass attempt and think, okay we need to fix this. I look at an extra 20 offensive plays per game and think, can we count on this going forward? I have no idea how these 20 extra plays came to be in the first place! However he managed it, reducing turnovers and getting 20 extra plays per game are the two places where Brady's numbers are better than Dorsey's. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 9 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: many, many factors that will be hard to duplicate. The bolded, like the pandemic, is basically impossible to duplicate. We see players all the time now have career years early in their careers and then never reach those same heights again. Not with that attitude. You make a good point about young QB's without much tape on them taking the league by storm and never being able to duplicate that season again. I'd also add the league has shifted since Mahomes, Allen, and Jackson's breakout years though as the cover 2 shell is now in vogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 9 hours ago, Doc Brown said: Link works fine for me. The link works, but there's no detail on the stat source he used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) On 6/1/2024 at 1:07 PM, Doc Brown said: I wouldn't just make it up. From the Niagara Gazette. Eerily similar offensive output with a tiny nod to Brady. More run production under Brady and more pass production under Dorsey. The turnovers is the main area that stands out among this graph. Also, you can't ignore the 22 drops under Brady compared to only 9 under Dorsey (per PFF). Brady Dorsey Games 9 10 Points 27.1 26.2 Total Yards 377.9 370.1 Touchdowns 27 30 TDs per drive 31.4% 31.2% Points per drive 46.5% 44.8% Passing attempts 34.2 35 Passing yards 221.4 253.6 Rushing attempts 36.8 25.4 Rushing Yards 161.2 116.5 Turnovers 9 18 Doc, this is very interesting but I don't think it tells us a lot unless we're playing football archaeologist and trying to understand the past. I don't think its predictive. I don't think the 2024 version of Brady is going to be the same as the 2023 version. Using the Dorsey playbook, Brady passed about the same, produced fewer passing yards but ran more and produced more rushing yards. I guess the one take-away is that Brady will maybe/probably run a more balanced offense than Dorsey did? That's about it. When asked about Brady's new scheme, Allen recently said this, “I think it remains to be seen, we’re putting in a lot of new stuff, a lot of different concepts that we typically haven’t ran since I’ve been here, which is very exciting for me. I’m learning a whole new offense, and guys are excited." It's possible that Brady will pass more this year than he did last with passing concepts he likes built into playbook. Despite being 6th in scoring, the offense last season (under both OCs) looked suboptimal and stale. I'm hoping this "whole new offense" is better though I'm not sure what to expect. Edited June 3 by hondo in seattle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 7 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: I think the answer is yes, we want Allen running much more than the 4.6 attempts per game he was getting in the 10 games with Dorsey last year. The team was 5-5 and not playing winning football with that strategy. So in essence, you're on the side that claims that we cannot win games with Allen primarily passing the ball then? That it takes a QB, for us anyway, that runs the equivalent of 150 times/season, for around 700 yards, and nearly 20 TDs in order for us to win games then? OK, let's run with that premise. How do other teams with other OCs manage to outperform us without their QBs doing the same? 7 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: As I pointed out in another thread, Allen's "heavy" usage as a runner in the final seven games of the season after Brady took over was not out of the ordinary for the Bills and Allen. The low 4.8 ypc was the anomaly and that new game plan the Bills tried clearly failed as they were 5-5 and looking down the hole of missing the playoffs entirely. I do think the Bills will once again try and employ an early season game plan of less carriers for Allen. Weren't the same people saying how we needed to run Allen less a year ago at this time? What about our running game? How come no OC that we've had can seem to piece together a decent rushing game for an entire season? Is it possible that it's our OCs? Who selected them? Why did that person select them? What happens if that same person selects a ringer OC and that OC excels with the offense but it's the defense that lets us down in the playoffs, ... again? What would our passing offense and offense in general look like if Ben Johnson or Andy Reid, among others ran it instead of a couple of OJT people that Allen is buddies with? 7 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: The trend the last three seasons under three different offensive coordinators has been Allen attempting 9 rushes per game to close out the final stretch of the season. For that to be the case under three different OC's is pretty telling. It is, but maybe it's those OCs. Not one came here nor has since distinguished themselves in the role. 7 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: Only twice Allen has averaged 5.0 or less attempts per game and they yielded drastically different results for the W/L column. Last year was the only year Allen averaged less than 6 attempts per game over the first 10 games of the season. Only twice has he even been under 7 attempts per game in the first 10 games, over the last five seasons. The other was 6.1 attempts in 2021 and lead to a 6-4 record, not as good as the 7-3 records when Allen had over 7 attempts per game. Last season we lost 5 games with Dorsey as the OC. Why does everyone point to Dorsey? How does McD incessantly get a pass, particularly as the one orchestrating the D. So in essence, you're placing the reasons for our losses on the shoulders of Dorsey. OK, let's run with that. First loss, the Jets. So you're placing the blame for that loss on our offense which went up against a defense that was playing top-ranked D in the first half of the season, and not on the shoulders of a defense, ranked 4th mind you and raved about by everyone here, that allowed nearly 200 rushing yards with QB Zach Wilson for offensive balance while allowing them to score just over their season average against our 4th ranked D in regulation then, while then allowing a 65-yard punt return to lose the game then? Who's more to blame for that loss of all the possibilities? Second loss, the Jags. Again, our illustrious 4th-ranked defense allowed the Jags to post the most 1st-Downs, most Total yards, and most rushing yards by a wide margin it can be added, and their 5th most passing yards on top of it, while allowing them to score 2 more points than their season average. Is that consistent with a 4th ranked touted defense? Our defense allowed three long drives averaging over 80 yards for three TDs. Oh, and we allowed the Jags to have over 38 minutes time-of-possession too. Who's more to blame for that loss of all the possibilities? Third loss, the Pats. We allowed Mac Jones to post the third best game of his career while having our 4th-ranked illustrious defense allow the Pats to put up over twice their scoring average on the season to put up their most points in any game all season. Our 4th-ranked D allowed the Pats to put up their 3rd most 1st-Downs, 2nd most total yards, 2nd most passing yards (Mac Jones), and 3rd most rushing yards all season. Again, who's more to blame for that loss of all of the possibilities? Fourth loss, the Bengals. Allen ran 8 times for 44 yards and 1 TD btw. Once again our illustrious 4th-ranked D allowed the Bengals a FG more points than their season average. We also allowed them their 4th most 1st-Downs, 3rd most total yards, and most passing yards that they had all season. Our illustrious pass-D that is. Once again, who's more to blame for that loss of all the possibilities? Fifth loss, the Broncos. Once again, our illustrious 4th ranked D allowed the Broncos 3 more points than their season average, their 6th most 1st-Downs, 5th most rushing yards, and average total and passing yards otherwise. Again, against a 4th ranked D. Once again, who's more to blame for this loss? The answer is clear, it's just that a lot of people have cognitive dissonance that disallows them from seeing it. Either way, it's a defeatest attitude when people throw in the towel on a better passing game than we have while we possess arguably the strongest armed QB in the history of the game, one that can make any throw, etc. Allen would be so much further along right now with good coaching, but hey, we want to focus on "complimentary football" and running the ball, largely with him, while focusing on the defense. The problem is that that's all we're going to get until we get someone on this staff that is capable of turning the offense into the juggernaut that it should be under Allen. Sadly, that won't happen under the current leadership. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 9 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Quote So in essence, you're on the side that claims that we cannot win games with Allen primarily passing the ball then? That it takes a QB, for us anyway, that runs the equivalent of 150 times/season, for around 700 yards, and nearly 20 TDs in order for us to win games then? OK, let's run with that premise. How do other teams with other OCs manage to outperform us without their QBs doing the same? Weren't the same people saying how we needed to run Allen less a year ago at this time? 1. Yes, history pretty clearly shows Allen should be running the ball quite a bit. Bills have the most success with that approach. Close to 20 rushing TD's? Now you are being ridiculous with that claim. Last year Allen had 15, a lot and an anomaly to previous year but still not close to 20. 2. Since 2020 what other teams are consistently outperforming the Bills offense?? Probably just KC. Suggesting the Bills offense is being outperformed seems inaccurate to me. Sure other teams get hot for one season or maybe two but the Bills have had a consistent body of work for 4 straight years now. 3. Many people were clamoring for Allen to run less last off-season. They were fools then and they are fools now if they continue to wish that IMO. 9 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Quote What would our passing offense and offense in general look like if Ben Johnson or Andy Reid, among others ran it instead of a couple of OJT people that Allen is buddies with? You're suggesting things I haven't even stated or hinted at as if I formed opinions on them. Andy Reid or Ben Johnson as OC? Um, neither of those guys are coming as an OC to the Bills. When Ben gets a new gig it will be as a head coach. I don't believe I hinted either way my thoughts on replacing McD. For the record, I lean towards being perfectly fine with replacing McD for an offensive HC but that is an entirely separate conversation. As for the Bills recent OC choices in Brady and Dorsey, I don't think it is at all uncommon to hire from within. I see that as a nothing burger. Again, I think Dorsey was unfairly put into a position where he was forced to run Allen less to start the season last year. The Bills offense was unsuccessful, the defense was horrendous at times and he was scapegoated for failing at a new offensive philosophy that was likely forced upon him from the HC and management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 11 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: 1. Yes, history pretty clearly shows Allen should be running the ball quite a bit. Bills have the most success with that approach. Close to 20 rushing TD's? Now you are being ridiculous with that claim. Last year Allen had 15, a lot and an anomaly to previous year but still not close to 20. 2. Since 2020 what other teams are consistently outperforming the Bills offense?? Probably just KC. Suggesting the Bills offense is being outperformed seems inaccurate to me. Sure other teams get hot for one season or maybe two but the Bills have had a consistent body of work for 4 straight years now. 3. Many people were clamoring for Allen to run less last off-season. They were fools then and they are fools now if they continue to wish that IMO. I'm in no way claiming that we don't do well when he runs. What is being claimed is that our passing game is notches below where it should be for the simple reason that we have no one knowledgeable and experienced enough to have it perform where it should be performing. There's a clear difference there. Allen running as an option is one thing, his running out of the necessity due to the other aspects of our offense not being able to cut it independently is quite another. Also, you didn't answer the question. How is it possible that other teams without their QBs running anywhere close to Allen's running, outperform us and do much much better than we do? Why is our QB running entirely necessary, but only for us? ... or maybe the Ravens who haven't proven anything on Jackson's watch. 11 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: You're suggesting things I haven't even stated or hinted at as if I formed opinions on them. I'm suggesting things that are implied or which otherwise are entirely related to the points you brought/bring up. 11 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: Andy Reid or Ben Johnson as OC? Um, neither of those guys are coming as an OC to the Bills. When Ben gets a new gig it will be as a head coach. I don't believe I hinted either way my thoughts on replacing McD. For the record, I lean towards being perfectly fine with replacing McD for an offensive HC but that is an entirely separate conversation. Not really. It's directly related as to why we have OJT OCs. Understandably you think that's fine, so I get that. But McD is the one that instructs Brady (and formerly Dorsey and Daboll, which was obviously the source of some of Daboll's issues with McD) how to run his offense despite knowing nothing about offense. It's not complicated, at least that simple aspect of it. 11 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: As for the Bills recent OC choices in Brady and Dorsey, I don't think it is at all uncommon to hire from within. I see that as a nothing burger. Again, I think Dorsey was unfairly put into a position where he was forced to run Allen less to start the season last year. The Bills offense was unsuccessful, the defense was horrendous at times and he was scapegoated for failing at a new offensive philosophy that was likely forced upon him from the HC and management. OK, you seem to be getting emotional now. That's fine, I get your position. But you've entirely missed the point on that. By implication you seem to believe that Brady's all we need and that we won't be able to improve significantly on him, Dorsey, or even Daboll. That's fine. Some people believe that. This season should once and for all reveal much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 24 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: You're suggesting things I haven't even stated or hinted at as if I formed opinions on them. I'm also suggesting things that run entirely contrary to heavy unsubstantiated narratives here. Otherwise, you cited our W/L under Dorsey and Brady with the implication that Dorsey wasn't cutting it. I provided the critical details on those games and how our defense played more like a 30th ranked D than a 4th ranked D and asked you why we lost those five games, you chose not to answer that question. It's entiredy disingenuous for anyone to throw Dorsey under the bus without at least asking similar questions about the D side, which was obviously much more responsible for those losses. We don't have to get into what it says about a head coach that allows his OC to get thrown under the bus without taking his share of the heat for his defensive horrendousness. That's simply not an honest analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 7 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Also, you didn't answer the question. How is it possible that other teams without their QBs running anywhere close to Allen's running, outperform us and do much much better than we do? Why is our QB running entirely necessary, but only for us? ... or maybe the Ravens who haven't proven anything on Jackson's watch. I did answer the question. I basically said your assumed answer is incorrect. I said sure in a one season sample size, some offenses will do better than the Bills. But big picture, since 2020 who is consistently outperforming the Bills offense? IMO, that would just be KC. So if the Bills are #2 on the list I don't think that is really worth worrying about. 1 minute ago, PBF81 said: I'm also suggesting things that run entirely contrary to heavy unsubstantiated narratives here. Otherwise, you cited our W/L under Dorsey and Brady with the implication that Dorsey wasn't cutting it. I provided the critical details on those games and how our defense played more like a 30th ranked D than a 4th ranked D and asked you why we lost those five games, you chose not to answer that question. Not sure why you are even arguing this point. Did I not state clearly that Dorsey was wrongly scapegoated and fired? Everyone knows the defense was terrible and led to many of our losses. Heck, look at the Denver game. The offensive personnel let Dorsey down with 4 huge turnovers, none of which can be pinned on the OC and the defense was horrendous, particularly late in the 4th quarter. My main point when it comes to Dorsey is that he was not able to work with Allen at 100% of his capabilities. And in part it led to a 5-5 record. I'm not saying the Bills would have gone 8-2 if Allen ran more but anything would have helped and been better than 5-5. This IMO, was a upper management decision pushed on to the OC. I expect it to be pushed on to Brady to start this upcoming season as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampant Buffalo Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 hour ago, PBF81 said: So in essence, you're on the side that claims that we cannot win games with Allen primarily passing the ball then? That it takes a QB, for us anyway, that runs the equivalent of 150 times/season, for around 700 yards, and nearly 20 TDs in order for us to win games then? OK, let's run with that premise. How do other teams with other OCs manage to outperform us without their QBs doing the same? Weren't the same people saying how we needed to run Allen less a year ago at this time? What about our running game? How come no OC that we've had can seem to piece together a decent rushing game for an entire season? Is it possible that it's our OCs? Who selected them? Why did that person select them? What happens if that same person selects a ringer OC and that OC excels with the offense but it's the defense that lets us down in the playoffs, ... again? What would our passing offense and offense in general look like if Ben Johnson or Andy Reid, among others ran it instead of a couple of OJT people that Allen is buddies with? It is, but maybe it's those OCs. Not one came here nor has since distinguished themselves in the role. Last season we lost 5 games with Dorsey as the OC. Why does everyone point to Dorsey? How does McD incessantly get a pass, particularly as the one orchestrating the D. So in essence, you're placing the reasons for our losses on the shoulders of Dorsey. OK, let's run with that. First loss, the Jets. So you're placing the blame for that loss on our offense which went up against a defense that was playing top-ranked D in the first half of the season, and not on the shoulders of a defense, ranked 4th mind you and raved about by everyone here, that allowed nearly 200 rushing yards with QB Zach Wilson for offensive balance while allowing them to score just over their season average against our 4th ranked D in regulation then, while then allowing a 65-yard punt return to lose the game then? Who's more to blame for that loss of all the possibilities? Second loss, the Jags. Again, our illustrious 4th-ranked defense allowed the Jags to post the most 1st-Downs, most Total yards, and most rushing yards by a wide margin it can be added, and their 5th most passing yards on top of it, while allowing them to score 2 more points than their season average. Is that consistent with a 4th ranked touted defense? Our defense allowed three long drives averaging over 80 yards for three TDs. Oh, and we allowed the Jags to have over 38 minutes time-of-possession too. Who's more to blame for that loss of all the possibilities? Third loss, the Pats. We allowed Mac Jones to post the third best game of his career while having our 4th-ranked illustrious defense allow the Pats to put up over twice their scoring average on the season to put up their most points in any game all season. Our 4th-ranked D allowed the Pats to put up their 3rd most 1st-Downs, 2nd most total yards, 2nd most passing yards (Mac Jones), and 3rd most rushing yards all season. Again, who's more to blame for that loss of all of the possibilities? Fourth loss, the Bengals. Allen ran 8 times for 44 yards and 1 TD btw. Once again our illustrious 4th-ranked D allowed the Bengals a FG more points than their season average. We also allowed them their 4th most 1st-Downs, 3rd most total yards, and most passing yards that they had all season. Our illustrious pass-D that is. Once again, who's more to blame for that loss of all the possibilities? Fifth loss, the Broncos. Once again, our illustrious 4th ranked D allowed the Broncos 3 more points than their season average, their 6th most 1st-Downs, 5th most rushing yards, and average total and passing yards otherwise. Again, against a 4th ranked D. Once again, who's more to blame for this loss? The answer is clear, it's just that a lot of people have cognitive dissonance that disallows them from seeing it. Either way, it's a defeatest attitude when people throw in the towel on a better passing game than we have while we possess arguably the strongest armed QB in the history of the game, one that can make any throw, etc. Allen would be so much further along right now with good coaching, but hey, we want to focus on "complimentary football" and running the ball, largely with him, while focusing on the defense. The problem is that that's all we're going to get until we get someone on this staff that is capable of turning the offense into the juggernaut that it should be under Allen. Sadly, that won't happen under the current leadership. Good post, and I'd like to add to what you've written. Sixth loss, the Eagles. The Bills had two defensive coordinators for that game. The really good one was named Sean McDermott. In the first half, his defensive game plan held the Eagles to just three points. Our really good defensive coordinator exited in the third quarter. His place was taken by the terrible defensive coordinator. Who, coincidentally, was also named Sean McDermott. The soft zone/prevent defense became a sieve for the second half. It allowed the Eagles offense to complete 8 - 12 yard passes. Easy throws, easy catches, we did nothing to contest or challenge. Just let them have those. Easy peasy, at least for them. We would have challenged on a 20 - 30 yard play, but just let 'em have the 8 - 12 yard stuff. If we'd played any defense at all in the second half, that game is a Bills win. Unfortunately, the terrible defensive coordinator defeated the Bills defense, more thoroughly and completely than any opposing offensive coordinator ever could. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Shakir disappeared from this thread as the new signings push him down the depth chart... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said: 1. Yes, history pretty clearly shows Allen should be running the ball quite a bit. Bills have the most success with that approach. Close to 20 rushing TD's? Now you are being ridiculous with that claim. Last year Allen had 15, a lot and an anomaly to previous year but still not close to 20. 2. Since 2020 what other teams are consistently outperforming the Bills offense?? Probably just KC. Suggesting the Bills offense is being outperformed seems inaccurate to me. Sure other teams get hot for one season or maybe two but the Bills have had a consistent body of work for 4 straight years now. 3. Many people were clamoring for Allen to run less last off-season. They were fools then and they are fools now if they continue to wish that IMO. You're suggesting things I haven't even stated or hinted at as if I formed opinions on them. Andy Reid or Ben Johnson as OC? Um, neither of those guys are coming as an OC to the Bills. When Ben gets a new gig it will be as a head coach. I don't believe I hinted either way my thoughts on replacing McD. For the record, I lean towards being perfectly fine with replacing McD for an offensive HC but that is an entirely separate conversation. As for the Bills recent OC choices in Brady and Dorsey, I don't think it is at all uncommon to hire from within. I see that as a nothing burger. Again, I think Dorsey was unfairly put into a position where he was forced to run Allen less to start the season last year. The Bills offense was unsuccessful, the defense was horrendous at times and he was scapegoated for failing at a new offensive philosophy that was likely forced upon him from the HC and management. You think people who want Allen to run less are fools? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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