Alphadawg7 Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 (edited) 18 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Mad, ... LOL Either way, changing the argument every time you react is hardly a way to discuss this. Otherwise, getting emotional doesn't help. Let's wait and see what happens. According to you things should go swimmingly, we all hope so. Lol, I haven't changed anything. And again, you are just making more things up. Show me one time I said things will go swimmingly. I have spoken on LAST year. You can't seem to understand LAST year vs future performance. I mean I literally said nobody knows what this offense will or wont be this year because last year it was Brady coaching out of Dorsey's offense, not his own. This offseason Brady is installing is both his OWN offense and doing so with a lot of turnover on the starting offense. So Brady still has to prove he is THE guy moving forward. But...last year, he was by far the better OC for us over Dorsey. If you can't see the difference then it makes me question if you even watch the games or even understand what you are watching. The object of the game is to WIN football games, not compile stats. And Brady put the offense in position to win more than it lost to the tune of 6-1 for a team with the exact same roster that started 5-5 (and should have been 3-7) and lost to bad teams. And did it with the pressure of every game essentially being a playoff game for the Bills as losing anymore than 1 guranteed no playoffs and did it against the hardest stretch of our schedule. There is no universe where Dorsey was a better OC for the Bills than Brady was last year. There just isn't. Now...does that automatically mean Brady is the long term answer? Not at all...Brady still has to show he is up for the task long term. Edited May 31 by Alphadawg7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cincinnati Kid Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 On 5/29/2024 at 7:59 AM, HoofHearted said: Brady has said he wants to take advantage of each players individual skill sets within this offense. Couple that with the uptick in production we saw out of Shakir at the end of last season once Brady took over, and one could assume he’s primed to be a focal point in this offense (albeit not to the level that Diggs was). So what say you. How would you get the most out of Shakir’s skill set within this offense? (There are no wrong answers and I’ll give my opinions later as not to influence the responses). I’d probably have him play some wide receiver. Hopefully he will catch the ball if thrown to him and then do some running with it towards the endzone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 7 hours ago, PBF81 said: So the Chargers with few notable defensive players were good then? Bosa out. We were on the underside of average in what they allowed per game in passing yards and total yards, and near the bottom in 1Ds generated, and nearly lost. The Chargers were only marginally worse on offense against our top D, with Stick and no one worthy of note on offense otherwise. We nearly lost that game. Well, OK. We all have our opinions. We put up fewer yards than every team but the Jets vs. NE. NE with Zappe outplayed us offensively. The Miami game was Allen's worst game against Miami since our blowout win (35-0) in '21, and otherwise since his rookie season. Philly was massively overrated as others have pointed out. The Jets allowed similar yards and points to Miami a week in later, at home, and Even more to Cleveland several weeks after that. Dallas was all Cook and D. We have no idea how Allen would have played in that game has it running game not worked out. Point being, if it doesn't improve we're not going to win the division and there will be trouble. Excuses aren't going to pay the piper. Otherwise argue as you may, but 60.7% compl. with an 85.5 rating, if that's what we got on the season, would be problematic. How can anyone argue contrarily, that's ridiculous. Find a QB that finished the season with those two numbers that went to the playoffs much less won his division and a playoff game. As to they playoffs, that's where McD really shines. He throws his hands in the air and "let's Allen be Allen." It's hardly coaching. If it were them our D would be on vacation once the playoffs started. Maybe he should be more hands-off this season. We'll see what happens. Arguing about it now isn't going to change any of it. But excuses aside, Allen's passing metrics has better not be where they were under Brady over the season or we're in trouble. There's a whole lot of blind faith being placed in Brady right now. It could work out, but to assume that it will, particularly given our ongoing merry-go-round at OC, is hardly assured. Uhh Zappe threw 3 picks, one returned for a TD, and they scored 14 points on offense... So basically a net of 7 points. Another was returned to the red zone. They outgained the bills by 13 total yards but had 4 turnovers to 1. NE got the game within 1 score with 11 minutes left. Buffalo possessed the ball for like 10 of those minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted May 31 Share Posted May 31 2 hours ago, The Cincinnati Kid said: I’d probably have him play some wide receiver. Hopefully he will catch the ball if thrown to him and then do some running with it towards the endzone. I think this is a pretty darned good idea ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 4 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said: Uhh Zappe threw 3 picks, one returned for a TD, and they scored 14 points on offense... So basically a net of 7 points. Another was returned to the red zone. They outgained the bills by 13 total yards but had 4 turnovers to 1. NE got the game within 1 score with 11 minutes left. Buffalo possessed the ball for like 10 of those minutes. It was Zappe. And still, they had more total yards and more passing yards and nearly beat us except for a D TD. You're leapfrogging the point. Your implication is that A, the NE D was actually something better than average, and that we actually played a good game offensively. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 5 hours ago, The Cincinnati Kid said: I’d probably have him play some wide receiver. Hopefully he will catch the ball if thrown to him and then do some running with it towards the endzone. Nothing about your post, just your profile name. The last few threads I've been reading has had arguments about populations growth, buying vs renting, NFL v WrestleMania and a myriad of other foolishness that I have to leave or start telling some posters what I really think of them. LOL I saw your profile name and decided instead of reading more BS, I'm going to watch the classic gambling movie "The Cincinatti Kid"! Steve McQueen, Tuesday Weld, Ann Margaret and Edward G Robinson sounds a lot better than what I have been reading. FWIW to anyone who cares, the movie is free on TUBI. Thanks "Kid"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 18 hours ago, PBF81 said: The question is why on the drops. The issue in analyzing Drops is that it's subjective unlike other metrics. Either way, not too get into the minutiae, the point is twofold, first, it counters the narrative(s), and secondly, let's hope it changes. It'll have to if we're to see improvement. You just seemed to discount them when projecting a 17 game season under Brady despite leaving out the two playoff games. PFF's grades are the most objective analysis of catchable target throw % out there and Allen didn't slip very much from Dorsey to Brady. They were very much in line with his 2021 and 2022 season. Yet his completion percentage went down about 10% points. It's probably that our WR's last year over performed under Dorsey and under performed under Brady. I guess my point is I'm not freaking out that Josh is all of a sudden going to revert back to 2019 Josh Allen just because of the loss of Diggs and Davis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 29 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: You just seemed to discount them when projecting a 17 game season under Brady despite leaving out the two playoff games. PFF's grades are the most objective analysis of catchable target throw % out there and Allen didn't slip very much from Dorsey to Brady. They were very much in line with his 2021 and 2022 season. Yet his completion percentage went down about 10% points. It's probably that our WR's last year over performed under Dorsey and under performed under Brady. I guess my point is I'm not freaking out that Josh is all of a sudden going to revert back to 2019 Josh Allen just because of the loss of Diggs and Davis. Well, OK, let's suppose we say probably so despite any lack of evidence in our "Diggs lost a step" world. How does that support the narrative that the O played better under Brady, clearly otherwise unsupported? Keep in mind, it's not merely a nominal drop, it's a drop near to near league worst in two key metrics that are far from what typical playoff QBs demonstrate. It's at least somewhat more complex than having a single reason no doubt, but at the heart of it and from where I sit, it's largely due to the notion that Allen was forced to play an aspect of the game that is a weakness for him, not a strength. ... which BTW also led to his having twice as carries in running the ball as well. We'll find out more this coming season to be sure. Unless Brady entirely changes his offense, from what it was under him that is, there's little reason to expect much more than more of the same. Anyone then thinking that we're going to win the division by winning games on D/STs TDs or by barely beating teams with poor Ds like the Chargers on top of that may be heavily disappointed. I have my strongest of suspicions otherwise, but I'll keep those to myself for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 2 hours ago, PBF81 said: Well, OK, let's suppose we say probably so despite any lack of evidence in our "Diggs lost a step" world. How does that support the narrative that the O played better under Brady, clearly otherwise unsupported? Keep in mind, it's not merely a nominal drop, it's a drop near to near league worst in two key metrics that are far from what typical playoff QBs demonstrate. It's at least somewhat more complex than having a single reason no doubt, but at the heart of it and from where I sit, it's largely due to the notion that Allen was forced to play an aspect of the game that is a weakness for him, not a strength. ... which BTW also led to his having twice as carries in running the ball as well. We'll find out more this coming season to be sure. Unless Brady entirely changes his offense, from what it was under him that is, there's little reason to expect much more than more of the same. Anyone then thinking that we're going to win the division by winning games on D/STs TDs or by barely beating teams with poor Ds like the Chargers on top of that may be heavily disappointed. I have my strongest of suspicions otherwise, but I'll keep those to myself for now. Nine less turnovers in one less game under Brady and about five more minutes of time per possession. Every other metric (ppg, ypg, yards per drive, etc. were pretty much identical in the 10 games under Dorsey and nine games under Brady). We just had more yards passing under Dorsey and more yards running under Brady. I'll leave it to somebody smarter than me to tell me why we were so much better at securing the ball under Brady than Dorsey. I'll also leave it to somebody smarter than me to explain why the drop % was so much higher under Brady than Dorsey. Was it Kincaid wearing the wrong gloves in the rain? Was Diggs secretly forcing his way out of Buffalo? Was Cook too focused on his backflip on the two dropped TD's? I demand answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maine-iac Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Quick question ................. when people keep saying O do they actually mean passing game? I get it that the passing game wasn't as WR centric and didn't make fantasy boys giddy but the offense wasn't worse after Dorsey it was just different. I actually think part of the "O" playing better (yes I said O and better) is that Brady limited turnovers and capitalized time of possession which in turn produced less explosive but more efficient passing. Diggs and Davis were not as focused on in an offense meant to move the chains and Diggs checked out. Shakir gets thrown higher percentage balls and catches them and makes things happen. Same with Kincaid. Cook is also seeing those types of throws he just dropped more of them. As far as big passing numbers, if Josh throws for less yards this regular season but Cook goes off for 1,400 yards I'm not going to worry about it and the message board will whine all season long. Shakir and Kincaid will still make things happen and Cook will be running all over people. We just need someone to emerge outside and they don't even have to do much more than Gave Davis type things to keep defenses honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 21 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Lol, I haven't changed anything. And again, you are just making more things up. Show me one time I said things will go swimmingly. I have spoken on LAST year. You can't seem to understand LAST year vs future performance. I mean I literally said nobody knows what this offense will or wont be this year because last year it was Brady coaching out of Dorsey's offense, not his own. This offseason Brady is installing is both his OWN offense and doing so with a lot of turnover on the starting offense. So Brady still has to prove he is THE guy moving forward. But...last year, he was by far the better OC for us over Dorsey. If you can't see the difference then it makes me question if you even watch the games or even understand what you are watching. The object of the game is to WIN football games, not compile stats. And Brady put the offense in position to win more than it lost to the tune of 6-1 for a team with the exact same roster that started 5-5 (and should have been 3-7) and lost to bad teams. And did it with the pressure of every game essentially being a playoff game for the Bills as losing anymore than 1 guranteed no playoffs and did it against the hardest stretch of our schedule. There is no universe where Dorsey was a better OC for the Bills than Brady was last year. There just isn't. Now...does that automatically mean Brady is the long term answer? Not at all...Brady still has to show he is up for the task long term. The object is to win, not compile stats. Now let me tell you all about Shakir’s efficiency stats being thrown to as WR3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 3 hours ago, Doc Brown said: Nine less turnovers in one less game under Brady and about five more minutes of time per possession. Every other metric (ppg, ypg, yards per drive, etc. were pretty much identical in the 10 games under Dorsey and nine games under Brady). We just had more yards passing under Dorsey and more yards running under Brady. I'll leave it to somebody smarter than me to tell me why we were so much better at securing the ball under Brady than Dorsey. I'll also leave it to somebody smarter than me to explain why the drop % was so much higher under Brady than Dorsey. Was it Kincaid wearing the wrong gloves in the rain? Was Diggs secretly forcing his way out of Buffalo? Was Cook too focused on his backflip on the two dropped TD's? I demand answers. Excellent!! Love your approach here. BTW, where did you find credible Yards-per-Drive stats without having to get them individually yourself? Always interested in stat sites that provide info not typically provided, broken-out/sortable that is. Those are the questions, and more, that everyone should be asking. That's how we get to the bottom of things. And BTW, again, it's at least somewhat complex. There are complex causes sometimes, but the effects aren't always so complex, quite often they're fairly easy to spot. But you said this above ... Every other metric (ppg, ypg, yards per drive, etc. were pretty much identical in the 10 games under Dorsey and nine games under Brady). Is that really true? You have to be very careful when using words like "every" without any qualifiers. And BTW, we could write a book on this season alone, but let's look at some of the more simple indicators. To start, it's common sense that Brady was at least in part, a part which can be discussed, Dorsey's offense, right. But it's also equal common sense that the further away we got from that transition, the closer we got to a Brady steady-state, which we'll see in all its glory this season. Ergo, it's therefore common sense that as the season progressed, Brady implemented more of "his" scheming than that of Dorsey's. He certainly didn't go back to what Dorsey did, which makes zero sense. So having said that, what else is important are trends and patterns. We started off with three strong offensive games on Brady's watch. If anything, those leaned more "Dorsey" than his later games to any extent that it did, which many here insist was to a big extent, and which is otherwise also common sense. Our team has a history of getting up for certain big games, much as we got up for the Rams the season before last to open up, or against Miami the first time this season, or against KC in the regular season as a few examples. So too, we got up for Brady's first game, but against what had then become a hapless Jets team. Then we played the Eagles who had just come off of a huge MNF road game @ KC, an advantage to us with an additional day of rest despite the game being @ Philly, and where their 7th ranked offense put up more points on our 4th ranked D than our 6th ranked offense put up on their 30th ranked D. After that overrated Philly, which nearly everyone agrees on, went 1-6 streak culminating in an blowout wild-card round loss to a 9-8 Bucs team that was lucky to make the playoffs. Then Dallas, which had just come their biggest game of their season against Philly for the division in essence. They were obviously flat coming to Buffalo. It was their worst offensive game of the season. So we started strong, but with mitigating circumstances. Keep in mind we lost to the Eagles. OK, so now we begin to see Brady's offense taking greater shape, at least more so than the prior games, over the last three games, and hardly against tough defensive foes. The Chargers brought the 24th ranked scoring and 28th ranked yardage D; The Pats brought the 15th ranked scoring and 7th ranked yardage D; and the Fins brought the 22nd ranked scoring and 10th ranked yardage D. Yet, during that three-game stretch, the most important of the season at that time, our offense averaged fewer than 20 PPG. (19.3, which is bottom dwelling, good for 25th on the season.) Allen's metrics under Brady on a per-game basis were also not great. Four of Allen's 6 worst rated games were under Brady as were his 4 worst Compl.% games along with 4 of his worst 7 YPA games. Why bother to point all that out you may ask; ... what is the strength of our team? Around what/whom does our entire success revolve around? You also said this, which is key; We just had more yards passing under Dorsey and more yards running under Brady. We did, by 16 YPG. Despite seeing an increase in average depth-of-target from 8.4 to 9.1, we also saw a 10% diminishment in Allen's Compl.%, which is huge; A 26% diminishment in Allen's passing TDs/game; Similar INTs; A 23% increase in sacks sustainted; An 11 point drop in Allen's Rating; An increase in both the percentages of QB Hits and QB Hurries that Allen sustained; And a slight diminishment in Allen's 1st-Down%. That's for all 7 of Brady's games, but how does that rub against what you said above, that we ran more, which we did. Why should those metrics suffer like that if our running game was truly doing all the work, or most of it. I'm going to go thru the data to document the # of pass & run plays in every game along with a few other things when I have time. But to simply dismiss that late season trend is, first of all, not good form for analysis, but second of all, quite the excuse-making for Brady's system. Here's some food for thought though. What's driving this? i.e., what's driving our proclivity towards running the ball, particularly using Allen, which just a year ago McD said he wanted to get away from? Is it really Brady? Put yourself in the shoes of being a new OC for our team, being handed Josh Allen. What's the first thing you say to yourself? Is it really that we need to run more and become a run focused team? That that's how we get to and make the playoffs, but more importantly win therein? That that's how we optimize and get the most from this offense in terms of scoring? I'll collect that data when I have time. We'll look more into it then. Again, interested in your yards-per-drive source if it's not one that I'm familiar with. You ask good questions that are part of a more complex situation. But don't simply ask the ones that suit a particular argument, ask them all. BTW, slightly off-topic but related, why did Kincaid's YPG production diminish under Brady in terms of YPG and TDs? How about why Shakir only scored 1 TD under Brady? Is that problematic going into this season given that the two most familiar targets for Allen averaged a season-totaling 880 Yards & 2 TDs and 690 & 0 TDs under Brady? Food for thought. I'll ping you when I have that game data. Thanks for engaging!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFan Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 1 hour ago, PBF81 said: BTW, slightly off-topic but related, why did Kincaid's YPG production diminish under Brady in terms of YPG and TDs? How about why Shakir only scored 1 TD under Brady? Is that problematic going into this season given that the two most familiar targets for Allen averaged a season-totaling 880 Yards & 2 TDs and 690 & 0 TDs under Brady? Besides the 2 TDs Shakir had in the playoffs? Josh is a dual threat QB. Showing only throwing stats doesn’t give the full picture. You asked why the receivers weren’t scoring TDs under Brady, well Josh had 11 rushing TDs under Brady (7 under Dorsey) and Cook had 4 TDs rushing and receiving under Brady (2 under Dorsey). Maybe the ball simply went elsewhere when we needed a score? By the way Diggs and Davis were already failing prior to Brady taking over. There is a clear line in their drop-off from week 6 to week 7 and beyond. Diggs’ catch % went from 74% in the first 6 weeks to 61% the rest of the season. Davis was 70% in weeks 1-6 and fell to 47% weeks 7-17. (Dorsey vs Brady - Diggs catch % 71.6 under Dorsey and 58.7% under Brady; Davis 60% under Dorsey; 46.2 under Brady. It also be noted that Diggs went from 74% in weeks 1-6 to 66.7% in weeks 7-10 under Dorsey). If you ask me, Josh drop in completion % has more to do with diminishing play from Diggs and Davis than from anything else. The team 5-5 under Dorsey and 7-2 under Brady. All this is moot anyway. Davis, Diggs, Harty, Sherfield and Murray are gone. They are being replaced by Coleman, Samuel, Hollins, MVS (or Claypool) and Ray Davis. These are much different weapons and probably better weapons for Brady to utilize. If I was mapping weapon for weapon: Diggs > Shakir, but closer than you think as Shakir out played him significantly after week 6 on only 1/3 the targets Coleman > Davis - Don’t be surprised when Coleman gives us better number as a rookie then Davis in his 4th year especially completion %. Samuel - is likely replacing Shakir in the slot MVS/Claypool > Harty- either is better than Harty Hollins > Sherfield Davis > Murray - Davis is an upgrade over the aging Murray and will likely take some short yardage carries from Josh as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 1 hour ago, GASabresIUFan said: Besides the 2 TDs Shakir had in the playoffs? Yes, this team is a different team in the playoffs. So was Allen. We've gone over that. 1 hour ago, GASabresIUFan said: Josh is a dual threat QB. Showing only throwing stats doesn’t give the full picture. That's out of context with the discussion. 1 hour ago, GASabresIUFan said: Davis > Murray - Davis is an upgrade over the aging Murray and will likely take some short yardage carries from Josh as well. Gee, bit step up there. LOL But Davis isn't > Singletary or Moss. Both of them had greater credentials coming into the NFL than Davis has. This is a wash/rinse/repeat thing by McBeane. None of our RBs ever get significant 3rd-down carries, but you knew that, right? This will all come clear in the fall in every likelihood. Then everyone will be saying the same things then that they said, or similar anyway, while avoiding the core issue, that they said about Dorsey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 3 hours ago, PBF81 said: But you said this above ... Every other metric (ppg, ypg, yards per drive, etc. were pretty much identical in the 10 games under Dorsey and nine games under Brady). Is that really true? You have to be very careful when using words like "every" without any qualifiers. I wouldn't just make it up. From the Niagara Gazette. Eerily similar offensive output with a tiny nod to Brady. More run production under Brady and more pass production under Dorsey. The turnovers is the main area that stands out among this graph. Also, you can't ignore the 22 drops under Brady compared to only 9 under Dorsey (per PFF). Brady Dorsey Games 9 10 Points 27.1 26.2 Total Yards 377.9 370.1 Touchdowns 27 30 TDs per drive 31.4% 31.2% Points per drive 46.5% 44.8% Passing attempts 34.2 35 Passing yards 221.4 253.6 Rushing attempts 36.8 25.4 Rushing Yards 161.2 116.5 Turnovers 9 18 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFan Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 30 minutes ago, PBF81 said: Yes, this team is a different team in the playoffs. So was Allen. We've gone over that. That's out of context with the discussion. Gee, bit step up there. LOL But Davis isn't > Singletary or Moss. Both of them had greater credentials coming into the NFL than Davis has. This is a wash/rinse/repeat thing by McBeane. None of our RBs ever get significant 3rd-down carries, but you knew that, right? This will all come clear in the fall in every likelihood. Then everyone will be saying the same things then that they said, or similar anyway, while avoiding the core issue, that they said about Dorsey. You specifically have asked in this thread why Josh's completion % fell under Brady and why our receivers weren't scoring under Brady. I have given you explanations on both and therefore neither is out of context. One, Diggs and Davis sucked after week 6 ands got worse as the season progress thus leading to Diggs having a 58% catch % and Davis in the 40% area under Brady. Second, as I previously pointed out, Brady diversified the offense and the ball went to Cook and Allen near the end zone thereby limiting the TD catches to the receivers. As to Singletary and Moss, who cares. They have never played here under Brady so why are they relevant to this discussion? The Bills drafted Davis to be this team's version of Kenneth Davis, a tough running and good catching, 3rd down back for this offense. Not an offense run by Daboll or Dorsey. How those guys utilized a 3rd down back is meaningless. As to their 3 RB's pedigree, I'll disagree there as well. Davis has the fastest 40 time (4.52 vs 4.66 & 4.65). He outgained Singletary from scrimmage in their final year and Davis earned his numbers in the SEC vs Singletary at Flordia Atlantic. Moss put up the best counting stats, but again he did it in the D challenged Pac 12. Just because some was drafted in the 4th rd vs the 3rd round is not proof that they have a better pedigree. It's more likely proof of a weaker RB group in the draft when Moss & Singletary were drafted or a stronger over all class in Davis' year. 16 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: Rushing attempts 36.8 25.4 Rushing Yards 161.2 116.5 Turnovers 9 18 These are the 3 key stats. The Bills rushed more, turned the ball over less, and won 7of 9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsgoodtime Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 I think they will plug him in as a WR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) 3 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said: You specifically have asked in this thread why Josh's completion % fell under Brady and why our receivers weren't scoring under Brady. I have given you explanations on both and therefore neither is out of context. One, Diggs and Davis sucked after week 6 ands got worse as the season progress thus leading to Diggs having a 58% catch % and Davis in the 40% area under Brady. Second, as I previously pointed out, Brady diversified the offense and the ball went to Cook and Allen near the end zone thereby limiting the TD catches to the receivers. As to Singletary and Moss, who cares. They have never played here under Brady so why are they relevant to this discussion? The Bills drafted Davis to be this team's version of Kenneth Davis, a tough running and good catching, 3rd down back for this offense. Not an offense run by Daboll or Dorsey. How those guys utilized a 3rd down back is meaningless. As to their 3 RB's pedigree, I'll disagree there as well. Davis has the fastest 40 time (4.52 vs 4.66 & 4.65). He outgained Singletary from scrimmage in their final year and Davis earned his numbers in the SEC vs Singletary at Flordia Atlantic. Moss put up the best counting stats, but again he did it in the D challenged Pac 12. Just because some was drafted in the 4th rd vs the 3rd round is not proof that they have a better pedigree. It's more likely proof of a weaker RB group in the draft when Moss & Singletary were drafted or a stronger over all class in Davis' year. These are the 3 key stats. The Bills rushed more, turned the ball over less, and won 7of 9. You're a narrative parrot. Disagree as you may on Davis, but there's not a credible draft profile out there that will support you. And when you repeat narratives like that Diggs sucked after week 6 despite posting 21 catches for 214 yards, 2 TDs, on a catch% of 68% over his next three games, how is anyone to take you seriously. Extrapolated over a 17 game season that'd be 119 catches for over 1,200 yards, and 11 TDs. Sorry, but that's simply idiotic in the literal sense. I'll respond to Doc Brown, but we're finished here. Piss into the wind elsewhere. Edited June 1 by PBF81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) 3 hours ago, Doc Brown said: I wouldn't just make it up. From the Niagara Gazette. Eerily similar offensive output with a tiny nod to Brady. More run production under Brady and more pass production under Dorsey. The turnovers is the main area that stands out among this graph. Also, you can't ignore the 22 drops under Brady compared to only 9 under Dorsey (per PFF). Brady Dorsey Games 9 10 Points 27.1 26.2 Total Yards 377.9 370.1 Touchdowns 27 30 TDs per drive 31.4% 31.2% Points per drive 46.5% 44.8% Passing attempts 34.2 35 Passing yards 221.4 253.6 Rushing attempts 36.8 25.4 Rushing Yards 161.2 116.5 Turnovers 9 18 Oh, believe me, I didn't think that you were making it up. But those are stats that come difficult to find in a sortable manner. Football Outsiders used to have a great stats section with all kinds of stuff that couldn't be found elsewhere, but games, by three-game stretches, the season, etc. It was great. They've been gone for a while. No, I was genuinely interested in your source. As to the stuff above, and presumably you read my last reply otherwise, which also addresses that somewhat, those numbers are fine, but the problems occur when you consider efficiency, not merely totals. For example, Allen's carries doubled from just under 5 (as I recall) to nearly 10, almost double. Is that really what we want our generationally talented QB with a cannon arm to be focusing on? And then why the diminishment in compl. % "all other things being equal"? How many of those rushing yards is Allen responsible for? Cook? Did you look to see how Cook's YPC average plummeted to 3.6 over what, I think the last five games of the season? If we look at the body of Dorsey's 10 games contrasted with Brady's 7 games, the distributions offensively are essentially the same. Two of our top three and 3 of our top-5 rushing games were under Dorsey. Brady and "his offense" have gotten credit for taking us to 6-1. Is that realistic? His offense produced 14 points v. Miami and we only won due to the unlikeliest of PR-TDs. We put up a tremendously average 24 points against a banged up poor Charger D. Against NE same thing, we put up 21 in very average fashion. Much worse offensive teams put up more points than us against those teams many times. Our offense averaged 19.3 PPG in those three to "win" them. Allow me to ask, suppose we add another FG to that, 22.3, and that's what we would average under Brady, what would you say that our record would be this season? ... So why was it the reason we won those games then? Those numbers are nice, in isolation I suppose, but what I'm trying to get you to do is to break it down more. Tell us about Cook's performance? Sure, "we ran more," and he tore it up against a depleted Dallas team in an emotionally high game for us, but otherwise over 6 games under Brady he went 92 carries for 328 yards, and 0 TDs. Is that good? It's an average of 15 for 55 yards, no scores, and a YPC average of a bottom-dwelling 3.7. Is that good? Is that what's going to propel us to yet another division win and some success in the playoffs? The question is, again, who is driving that? Is it really Brady that truly believes that's the best way to get the offense to be all that it can be? Is that what you think? Do you think that our ticket to winning, any season, not merely this one since our offensive strategy seems to change every season as it has, is to have Allen run more, force cook or some 4th round RB to run the ball, but never on 3rd-downs, and limit Allen's passing game to the extent that he posts 60% completions and a pace of 24 passing TDs/season, which would have been good for 11th last season tied with Stafford and Jackson. IDK, maybe you do. Some people obviously do since they parrot McDefense's "complimentary football" unoriginal and ill-suited to this team's offensive talent, largely Allen. I don't think it is when you have a generational talent at QB with arguably the strongest arm that the league has ever seen and athleticism that would make any coach drool with anticipation at getting their hands on him with some creativity. But call me crazy. Apparently the answer is to put him in a short-medium passing game box, have him run the ball more while opening himself up to not only more hits and tackles running, but also more QB Hits and QB Hurries as the stats indicate under Brady. We will see to be sure. If I had to guess a theme heading into this season, it might very well be be careful what you wish for, you may get it. Either way, and hopefully I'm dead wrong, but what do you think? What are your answers to those questions? ------ Edit: BTW, I just clicked on that Niagara Gazette link hoping to find the source, unless I missed it it wasn't included. What I did notice was the discussion about how Allen largely picked Brady. Obviously the forum applauds that and people give credence to that. But Allen was also the reason in the same exact manner as to why Dorsey was picked. He also loved Daboll who had his flaws. Maybe someone knowledgeable should decide who's best to get the most from this offense, someone that can see the forest for the trees, i.e. not Allen. And coaches and players develop personal relationships and tight friendships amongst themselves, which would obviously bring bias into the mix. The question is who, who has that offensive wherewithal to make such a choice and decision. HINT: it's not McD. And think about it, even if it were, if we were to bring in an OC that caused our offense to explode, and yet we went to the playoffs with the D failing as it has, what do you think that the outcry would be? ... maybe that's why McD hasn't gotten anyone else but from within or those that he knows personally. Just sayin'. Once again, let's ask ourselves, had Allen arrived here before McD, would anyone have chosen McD to be the Bills' coach? Would you have? ... you have Allen, now you need a coach. Would you have had McD on your short list? It's largely a chicken-egg thing. Keep in mind, McD was the only one in the world that wanted Peterman, and he had to have media and fan pressure change his mind. What does that in and of itself say? More food for thought. Edited June 2 by PBF81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBBills Fan Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Can he rush the passer? I'd try him on the edge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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