Dan Orlovsky: Bills offensive weapons are top five in the AFC, too many are sleeping on this team

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

You really should start a thread on this notion that the Bills weapons last year were the best since Josh Allen was a Bill.

 

That would be entertaining.  

 

 

Again, I said the offense as a whole...its funny to me how hard you are trying to steer away from that.  But, if I get time, maybe I will start that thread.  

[YattaOkasan]

Can someone to point me to the terrible passing stats when Brady took over.  I see 139 completions on 229 attempts for 244 yards per game.  This is 10 yards per game down from with Dorsey and 6% lower completion percentage, but i sorta don't see it.  As noted Josh ran more so he more than made up for that with his legs.  Would also like the reference for worse rushing efficiency under Brady.  Dude sure seemed to help us win a lot with worse efficiency in all phases.  Unless it was hte much maligned defense.

 

Edit: I see the rushing numbers now which went from 4.59 YPC to 4.43 YPC.  Im pretty meh on that as well.  Suspect success % bears out some of raw stats here.  Would also note that Brady faced NYJ, Eagle, Chiefs 2x, Cowboys, Chargers Patriots, Fins, Steelers, (6 play off teams and the Jets defense) is significantly tougher competition than NYJ, LV, Wash, Fins, Jags, Giants, Patriots, Bucs, Bengals, Broncos (2 play off teams and the Jets defense).  So slightly less efficient numbers are perfectly acceptable from that perspective

Edited May 30 by YattaOkasan

[Alphadawg7]

On 5/29/2024 at 6:09 AM, Royale with Cheese said:

 

He had the best offensive line he ever has had and they were also the healthiest in the league.  He didn't have elite weapons and playmakers but he had good ones.  

You talk as if Allen had the 2023 Carolina Panthers talent level on offense.

 

I think as a whole, it was his best group 11 vs 11 comparison he has had in his career.  The biggest issue was the OC...going from one who had no idea how to use his personnel, use movement, break from script, adjust, be less predictable, or run the ball...to a guy better in all those areas but taking over 10 games in and having to do so with the predecessors offense in a can't lose any more games position.  

 

 

[longtimebillsfan]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:19 AM, Logic said:

I figured I'd give this its own thread, because this board could use a little hit of positivity going into the weekend. I've been as loud a critic of the Bills' offensive moves as anyone this offseason, so allow me to share a contrary opinion:
 

 

So refreshing to read a possitive post!  Thank you.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, YattaOkasan said:

Can someone to point me to the terrible passing stats when Brady took over.  I see 139 completions on 229 attempts for 244 yards per game.  This is 10 yards per game down from with Dorsey and 6% lower completion percentage, but i sorta don't see it.  As noted Josh ran more so he more than made up for that with his legs.  Would also like the reference for worse rushing efficiency under Brady.  Dude sure seemed to help us win a lot with worse efficiency in all phases.  Unless it was hte much maligned defense.

 

Edit: I see the rushing numbers now which went from 4.59 YPC to 4.43 YPC.  Im pretty meh on that as well.  Suspect success % bears out some of raw stats here.  Would also note that Brady faced NYJ, Eagle, Chiefs 2x, Cowboys, Chargers Patriots, Fins, Steelers, (6 play off teams and the Jets defense) is significantly tougher competition than NYJ, LV, Wash, Fins, Jags, Giants, Patriots, Bucs, Bengals, Broncos (2 play off teams and the Jets defense).  So slightly less efficient numbers are perfectly acceptable from that perspective

 

Don't you dare provide context...theres no room for context when people can just blindly rant or complain and cherry pick stuff to try and prove a false point HA

 

Its a complete joke for anyone to try and act like anything was worse under Brady than Dorsey.  Brady was beating playoff teams, including the Super Bowl Champs, while Dorsey was losing to teams like Zach Wilson led Jets and a Broncos team who gave up 70 points in a single game.  And quite honestly, Dorsey should have been 3-7 instead of 5-5 but Daboll bailed him out by doing his best Daboll impression to cost the Giants the game on the goalline and then we also lucked out in the Bucs game where we should have lost on the final play too but got lucky.  

 

Dorsey had the softest and easiest part of our schedule just to have us well out of the playoffs and sitting at 5-5 with only really 3 good games out of 10.  Brady came in made an immediate impact, so much so, it had Allen screaming "I'm Back!" on the sideline that first game.  

 

Brady in 7 games (which we went 6-1) faced FIVE top 10 defenses and 4 playoff teams.  Dorsey lost to a bunch of bad teams and nearly lost to Giants and Bucs too to be lucky to have a 5-5 record instead of a 3-7 record.

Edited May 30 by Alphadawg7

[Milanos Milano]

On 5/24/2024 at 11:42 AM, Freddie's Dead said:

 

***** is Steve Diggs?

That would explain why #14 was MIA last year, Steve Diggs didn’t play well. 

[NewEra]

22 minutes ago, Milanos Milano said:

That would explain why #14 was MIA last year, Steve Diggs didn’t play well. 

HE’S BAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!!!!!

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Again, I said the offense as a whole...its funny to me how hard you are trying to steer away from that.  But, if I get time, maybe I will start that thread.  

 

Again.......here is your quote:

 

"Last year was by far the best talent around Allen since being a Bill.  And its honestly not close."

 

In reality the 2020 weapons included 2 All Pro's and IN FACT a better OL.    The only upgrade in the starting 11 that they had at any position in 2023 was James Cook at RB........the least important individual position.   It's just complete revisionist nonsense on your part.   Spencer Brown was solid last year.    Daryl Williams was the best Bills OL in 2020 and could have easily been an All Pro RT for the second time in his career.   Allen has never had more time to throw and it showed with easily his best season and highest MVP finish.

 

Just imagine how good a more mature Josh Allen would be with those weapons and that kind of protection.   Definitely a lot better than the 26 points per game offense in 2023 and probably better than the 31 point per game offense in 2020.

[Alphadawg7]

49 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Again.......here is your quote:

 

"Last year was by far the best talent around Allen since being a Bill.  And its honestly not close."

 

In reality the 2020 weapons included 2 All Pro's and IN FACT a better OL.    The only upgrade in the starting 11 that they had at any position in 2023 was James Cook at RB........the least important individual position.   It's just complete revisionist nonsense on your part.   Spencer Brown was solid last year.    Daryl Williams was the best Bills OL in 2020 and could have easily been an All Pro RT for the second time in his career.   Allen has never had more time to throw and it showed with easily his best season and highest MVP finish.

 

Just imagine how good a more mature Josh Allen would be with those weapons and that kind of protection.   Definitely a lot better than the 26 points per game offense in 2023 and probably better than the 31 point per game offense in 2020.

 

I revised that since I wrote because the "by far" was more referencing your original comment of "since 2021" and I was comparing against 2021.  You then changed your tune when you realized you couldn't really make a case for 2021 and grabbed onto my "since being a Bill" comment to pivot to 2020…which was fair given I stared since being a Bill.

 

And since 2020 was now more prevalent and when looking at it specifically, I edited the original comment to remove the "by far" as that was too strong of a phrase, and even told you when I said we should agree to disagree that it was not even probably that significant of a difference of comparing the roster of 2020 and 2023.  

 

But...you have been cherry picking stats and ignoring context in this comparison as well as things you said about things like Brady last year in other posts.  

 

The fact remains...the biggest difference was the STYLE of offense under Daboll vs the combo of Dorsey/Brady last year.  Player for player, I would say the 11 guys on the field in 2023 are a better group than the 2020 unit.  I have already broken it down for you many times, so not gonna waste more time doing it yet again and just revert back to the agree to disagree stance, because again, we aren't probably talking about a massive difference one way or the other.

 

And for the record...the 2020 team was the lone team that absolutely looked like it did not belong in the playoffs against KC.  For an offense that was allegedly sooooo talented...they absolutely sucked against KC and their mediocre defense where the Bills offense was totally outclassed all over the field.  The 2023 team beat the best defense KC has had in Mahomes career (one of the best in the league) and then lost by 3 in the playoffs to it as well.  

 

So again...agree to disagree bud

Edited May 30 by Alphadawg7

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Don't you dare provide context...theres no room for context when people can just blindly rant or complain and cherry pick stuff to try and prove a false point HA

 

Its a complete joke for anyone to try and act like anything was worse under Brady than Dorsey.  Brady was beating playoff teams, including the Super Bowl Champs, while Dorsey was losing to teams like Zach Wilson led Jets and a Broncos team who gave up 70 points in a single game.  And quite honestly, Dorsey should have been 3-7 instead of 5-5 but Daboll bailed him out by doing his best Daboll impression to cost the Giants the game on the goalline and then we also lucked out in the Bucs game where we should have lost on the final play too but got lucky.  

 

Dorsey had the softest and easiest part of our schedule just to have us well out of the playoffs and sitting at 5-5 with only really 3 good games out of 10.  Brady came in made an immediate impact, so much so, it had Allen screaming "I'm Back!" on the sideline that first game.  

 

Brady in 7 games (which we went 6-1) faced FIVE top 10 defenses and 4 playoff teams.  Dorsey lost to a bunch of bad teams and nearly lost to Giants and Bucs too to be lucky to have a 5-5 record instead of a 3-7 record.

 

Thanks, Alpha.  This actually makes me feel better.  While I wasn't sad in the slightest when Dorsey was canned, I didn't jump on the Brady train either.  As a fan, it felt like the O didn't get any better overall when Brady took the reins and the passing game actually got worse.  I may not have been considering the strength of the defenses Brady faced.  And part of my feeling of disappointment may have simply been me hoping for more.  Over the past few years, we've had some beautiful streaks of consecutive 30+ point games.  I wanted Brady to give me that.  I still do.

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Thanks, Alpha.  This actually makes me feel better.  While I wasn't sad in the slightest when Dorsey was canned, I didn't jump on the Brady train either.  As a fan, it felt like the O didn't get any better overall when Brady took the reins and the passing game actually got worse.  I may not have been considering the strength of the defenses Brady faced.  And part of my feeling of disappointment may have simply been me hoping for more.  Over the past few years, we've had some beautiful streaks of consecutive 30+ point games.  I wanted Brady to give me that.  I still do.

I think/hope some of the Brady changes were to adapt to the personnel he had.  I think Brady wanted to move away from the dependence on Diggs + Davis and rely more on the Kincaid/Shakir/Cook as the core of the offense.  Brady did well with limited tools he had IMO.

 

IMO, the strategy should not be to keep Brady working with a limited personnel but instead try and improve on the WRs.  With this strategy you give Brady a better top tier WR, replace Davis with eventually K Coleman but while he learns you cover for him with Samuel.  You slightly increase Shakir's involvement, at pretty much the level he had the second half of the season.  And keep Kincaid at or a slight bit more than the second half of the season also.

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Unless it was hte much maligned defense.

 

 

It was the defense... There was a period from the London game to the Denver game where the defense was the WORST defense in the league by DVOA. Dorsey got fired and then the defense happened to turn into a top 5ish unit again. That, not Brady taking over, was by far the biggest reason we went from nearly missing the playoffs to going on a big winning streak to steal the division.

 

Excluding the first game where Allen melted down, the passing offense was very consistent throughout the year. It had single-game peaks and valleys but on the whole it never got markedly better or worse over the course of the season. The one thing I really thought Brady did better than Dorsey was he took out some of the offense's worst tendencies. We took some of Davis' targets and moved them to Shakir, and Kincaid became the clear primary TE over Knox who became an afterthought. Moving targets from low efficiency players to high efficiency players was smart offensive coaching but it didn't flip the passing offense on its head or anything. It just made it a bit less mistake prone.

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Player for player, I would say the 11 guys on the field in 2023 are a better group than the 2020 unit.  

 

But offenses aren't measured player for player. The #1 player on the offense is magnitudes more important than the #11 player. The #1 non-Josh Allen player in 2020 was Diggs, full stop. He was an elite true #1 WR, inarguably top 5 in the league. The #1 player the last half of last year was... I really am not 100% sure? I guess it was Shakir? That's a loooooooong drop off from a guy that was a top 5 player at his position.

 

This is the old debate about top end talent versus depth. You could argue the depth of the 2023 offense was better than the depth of the 2020 offense. For the record I don't think even that is clearly true but sure you could argue it. It is undeniable however that the top end talent of 2020 was drastically better than the top end talent of 2023. Which means the offensive talent as a whole was better no matter how you want to stack the depth players.

 

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

And for the record...the 2020 team was the lone team that absolutely looked like it did not belong in the playoffs against KC.  For an offense that was allegedly sooooo talented...they absolutely sucked against KC and their mediocre defense where the Bills offense was totally outclassed all over the field.  The 2023 team beat the best defense KC has had in Mahomes career (one of the best in the league) and then lost by 3 in the playoffs to it as well.  

 

I think Allen has just become a good bit better since 2020. He was flat out a better QB in his next two playoff games against the Chiefs. That AFCCG offensive performance was absolutely not a matter of offensive skill talent. It was a combination of Allen being a bit unwilling to take underneath throws and our top three WRs entering the game injured.

 

Edited May 31 by HappyDays

[Alphadawg7]

12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

But offenses aren't measured player for player. The #1 player on the offense is magnitudes more important than the #11 player. The #1 non-Josh Allen player in 2020 was Diggs, full stop. He was an elite true #1 WR, inarguably top 5 in the league. The #1 player the last half of last year was... I really am not 100% sure? I guess it was Shakir? That's a loooooooong drop off from a guy that was a top 5 player at his position.

 

No disrespect at all bud…but…Hard disagree on this.  We are not talking about 11 players deep on the bench, we are talking about 11 starting players.  You can't say that the best player is magnitudes more important than the worst player, that makes no sense.  For example, if the best player is the Center and the worst player is the QB, that Center is not magnitudes more important than the fact the QB isn't good, it will make almost no difference.  

 

And in 2020...and 2023...the number 1 player on the offense was the same.  Josh Allen.  When your number 1 player on the team is the QB, it makes everyone else better.  And while 2020 Josh was seen as a better version than 2023 Josh (mainly over the turnovers) its not like Josh was a disaster last year, he was still the only person not named Lamar to get an MVP vote.  

 

Once again...1 individual person (in this case 2020 Diggs) does not equal a whole offense either.  How many times did Calvin Johnson sit home and watch the playoffs from his couch?  Almost every year of his career despite having a top 10 QB.  How many SB rings does Megatron, Moss, Julio, Fitzgerals, and Hopkins have combined?  Zero...despite being the best player on their teams most of their careers.  

 

This notion that one offense is better because it had the alleged "best single player" on it does not at all equate to best overall roster.  

 

And as far as last year goes...it was still Diggs as the best player not named Allen…just because his usage changed does not mean his skills went away.  

 

Under Dorsey Diggs was on pace for 1,475 yards and 12 TDS which would have been his 2nd highest career total in yards and career best in TD's.  Brady completely changed the philosophy of the offense and Diggs usage changed with it.  So this idea that Diggs was some shell of himself like people like to say is just not accurate and Diggs was still the best player not named Allen on the offense.

 

12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

This is the old debate about top end talent versus depth. You could argue the depth of the 2023 offense was better than the depth of the 2020 offense. For the record I don't think even that is clearly true but sure you could argue it. It is undeniable however that the top end talent of 2020 was drastically better than the top end talent of 2023. Which means the offensive talent as a whole was better no matter how you want to stack the depth players.

 

Ive already shown this to be false.  The top end talent of 2020 wasn't even much different.  Allen was still an MVP finalist, Diggs was still on pace in his feed him the ball role under Dorsey.  Then you have better and more efficient targets for Allen in Kincaid and Shakir, you have the best RB of Allens career behind the best OL of his career to go along with the best TE group of his career.  

 

12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

I think Allen has just become a good bit better since 2020. He was flat out a better QB in his next two playoff games against the Chiefs. That AFCCG offensive performance was absolutely not a matter of offensive skill talent. It was a combination of Allen being a bit unwilling to take underneath throws and our top three WRs entering the game injured.

 

 

I will take the 2023 roster over the 2020 roster personally, and its an easy choice for me.  That roster got wasted by Dorsey to start the season, I thought he had a bad 2022 and hated him coming back but also hoped he would be better...he wasn't.  Brady saved the season but was still handcuffed to Dorseys offense and did a stellar job despite that.  

 

I can only wonder what could have been last year had Dorsey been fired after 2022 and Brady installed in the offseason.  

Edited May 31 by Alphadawg7

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

But offenses aren't measured player for player. The #1 player on the offense is magnitudes more important than the #11 player. The #1 non-Josh Allen player in 2020 was Diggs, full stop. He was an elite true #1 WR, inarguably top 5 in the league. The #1 player the last half of last year was... I really am not 100% sure? I guess it was Shakir? That's a loooooooong drop off from a guy that was a top 5 player at his position.

 

This is the old debate about top end talent versus depth. You could argue the depth of the 2023 offense was better than the depth of the 2020 offense. For the record I don't think even that is clearly true but sure you could argue it. It is undeniable however that the top end talent of 2020 was drastically better than the top end talent of 2023. Which means the offensive talent as a whole was better no matter how you want to stack the depth players.

 

 

I think Allen has just become a good bit better since 2020. He was flat out a better QB in his next two playoff games against the Chiefs. That AFCCG offensive performance was absolutely not a matter of offensive skill talent. It was a combination of Allen being a bit unwilling to take underneath throws and our top three WRs entering the game injured.

 

And terrible offensive line play.  The OL played very well the majority of the season, but they got whipped in the AFCCG.  

[NewEra]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect at all bud…but…Hard disagree on this.  We are not talking about 11 players deep on the bench, we are talking about 11 starting players.  You can't say that the best player is magnitudes more important than the worst player, that makes no sense.  For example, if the best player is the Center and the worst player is the QB, that Center is not magnitudes more important than the fact the QB isn't good, it will make almost no difference.  

 

And in 2020...and 2023...the number 1 player on the offense was the same.  Josh Allen, and it’s not close.  When your number 1 player on the team is the QB, it makes everyone else better.  And while 2020 Josh was seen as a better version than 2023 Josh (mainly over the turnovers) its not like Josh was a disaster last year, he was still the only person not named Lamar to get an MVP vote.  

 

Once again...1 individual person (in this case 2020 Diggs) does not equal a whole offense either.  How many times did Calvin Johnson sit home and watch the playoffs from his couch?  Almost every year of his career despite having a top 10 QB.  How many SB rings does Megatron, Moss, Julio, Fitzgerals, and Hopkins have combined?  Zero...despite being the best player on their teams most of their careers.  

 

This notion that one offense is better because it had the alleged "best single player" on it does not at all equate to best overall roster.  

 

And as far as last year goes...it was still Diggs as the best player not named Allen…just because his usage changed does not mean his skills went away.  

 

Under Dorsey Diggs was on pace for 1,475 yards and 12 TDS which would have been his 2nd highest career total in yards and career best in TD's.  Brady completely changed the philosophy of the offense and Diggs usage changed with it.  So this idea that Diggs was some shell of himself like people like to say is just not accurate and Diggs was still the best player not named Allen on the offense.

 

 

Ive already shown this to be false.  The top end talent of 2020 wasn't even much different.  Allen was still an MVP finalist, Diggs was still on pace in his feed him the ball role under Dorsey.  Then you have better and more efficient targets for Allen in Kincaid and Shakir, you have the best RB of Allens career behind the best OL of his career to go along with the best TE group of his career.  

 

 

I will take the 2023 roster over the 2020 roster personally, and its an easy choice for me.  That roster got wasted by Dorsey to start the season, I thought he had a bad 2022 and hated him coming back but also hoped he would be better...he wasn't.  Brady saved the season but was still handcuffed to Dorseys offense and did a stellar job despite that.  

 

I can only wonder what could have been last year had Dorsey been fired after 2022 and Brady installed in the offseason.  

My take is that the offensive roster was about a push from 20 to 23.  Beasley and Diggs were all pro in 20.  Brown was a better x than Gabe (minus blocking).  TEs and RBs goes to 23 while I think the OL was a push.  I thought the 2020 line was better the majority of the season but they were poor vs KC.  Close call.

 

Defensively, the 2023 roster was better 💯 until injury evened things out. Poyer and Hyde both notably worse in 23 but the DL was much better.  CB also better in 23.  
 

Talent wise, last year was our best team imo.  Too bad they didn’t pull the trigger on Dorsey after his rookie season didn’t show much promise (to me anyway).  Not sold on Brady yet, but I think he could get the job done.  

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

My take is that the offensive roster was about a push from 20 to 23.  Beasley and Diggs were all pro in 20.  Brown was a better x than Gabe (minus blocking).  TEs and RBs goes to 23 while I think the OL was a push.  I thought the 2020 line was better the majority of the season but they were poor vs KC.  Close call.

 

Defensively, the 2023 roster was better 💯 until injury evened things out. Poyer and Hyde both notably worse in 23 but the DL was much better.  CB also better in 23.  
 

Talent wise, last year was our best team imo.  Too bad they didn’t pull the trigger on Dorsey after his rookie season didn’t show much promise (to me anyway).  Not sold on Brady yet, but I think he could get the job done.  

 

Don't forget Gabe in 2020 was more effective than Gabe 2023.   He was part of the reason they had a top 3 WR corps in the NFL that year.   And Dawson Knox 2020 was way more effective than the abysmal 2023 version.   Allen's passer rating when targeting the true TE was much better in 2020.    The only position they were stronger at anywhere on offense in 2023 was starting RB.........which is the least important to be strong at "individually".

 

And yes the 2023 defense was more talented on the DL.   But they were OLD at too many positions overall and it showed as the season went on.   The back 7 was just not near the same quality as the 2020 team because of age.    Guys like Hyde, Poyer and White were nearly at an all pro level in 2020.    Even AJ Klein was outstanding when he filled in for Milano/Edmunds in 2020.   That was arguably the best back 7 in football in 2020.   All those mentioned were shells of their former selves last year.   Bernard was an upgrade on Edmunds but that's about the only one in the back 7 who was better.    Back in 2020 they were kinda' known as a young, durable unit.   That matters.   It's why they bounced back so well and played consistently from week to week and ran off a 13-3 record(and one of the 3 losses was the Hail Murray).      

 

 

Edited May 31 by BADOLBILZ

[hondo in seattle]

I still believe there's too much talk about the soldiers and not enough about the generals.  

 

This O has Josh and enough other weapons that it could potentially score a bunch of points.  Whether or does or not depends on the offense that Brady is able to scheme up and how well he trains the players to execute it.  

 

When asked about this year's offense, Allen said this, “I think it remains to be seen, we’re putting in a lot of new stuff, a lot of different concepts that we typically haven’t ran since I’ve been here, which is very exciting for me.  I’m learning a whole new offense, and guys are excited. I think what coach Brady is doing right now is some really good stuff, and our guys are going out there and executing really well, and we’re just trying to learn, grow, and be the best that we can be.”

 

Josh tends to be an optimist who supports his coaches so I'm not sure I trust his evaluation when he says this is "some really good stuff."  I think the better quote is, "it remains to be seen."  

 

I'm hopeful because I'm a Bills fan.  I'm not down on this O nor especially excited.  But I am very curious.