Royale with Cheese Posted May 29 Posted May 29 19 minutes ago, FireChans said: I would argue he needed to be Superman last year. Go look at the anomalies in the passing game. He had the best offensive line he ever has had and they were also the healthiest in the league. He didn't have elite weapons and playmakers but he had good ones. You talk as if Allen had the 2023 Carolina Panthers talent level on offense. Quote
BillsVet Posted May 29 Posted May 29 10 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said: We are still going to throw the ball a ton and will be league leaders again. This will be the first year under Brady's offense with his playbook, his vision, his adjustments etc.... He can't make significant and drastic changes to an offense mid year. We couldn't score before Brady took over. After the Dolphins game, the next 6 games we averaged 20 ppg.... Josh accounted for 21% of the team's rushing yards under Dorsey. It was 30% under Brady. Dorsey's offense averaged 26.2 points and Brady was 27.1. The same personnel group with a healthy OL managed to score 1 point more per game, but it took Josh running it more. If they're committed to not running Josh as much, it's a big question where they'll replace that production. Because the running game was less efficient last year under Brady even with Josh carrying it more often. 1 Quote
Alphadawg7 Posted May 29 Posted May 29 (edited) 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: The top 5 options that we are discussing.........they put up 232 yards per game receiving in 2020. The top 5 in 2023 put up 199. That's a massive difference in explosiveness. I mean I have literally stated in every post now that the offense is more than just the receivers. But you are just manipulating information now, and you are know that. We threw for more yards in 2020 than 2023 because we didn't run the ball in 2020 nearly as much as 2023. So you are saying the top 5 guys averaged more because it was a Daboll pass first offense with a top heavy pass attack (especially to Diggs) in 2020 compared to a more balanced and spread the ball around attack and the utilization of a TE as the 2nd top targeted player in 2023. But you are just trying to isolate and cherry pick random stats that are about offensive philosophy between different OCs than overall offensive talent without any context to the data being applied. Daboll's style of offense was very different than the style of 2023. Maybe you like his style better, but that doesn't mean the talent level of the players was better overall as an offense. 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Your revisionist history is perplexing. The 2020 OL had two stud OT performers with near 80 pff grades. 4 of the 5 starters graded considerably higher than their 2023 counterparts. Only RG's Brian Winters and OCyrus Torrence graded near evenly(both the poorest). There are 5 guys that make up an OL...not 2 and PFF rating system is worthless. Besides, I don't care which year had the best individual...I am talking the best unit as a whole, which includes run blocking and pass blocking. And we all know PFF grades mean very little. 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Again, you have this weird recency bias going on that defies logic/stats/facts. Everybody with promise and efficiency in lesser roles in 2020 have now proven that they sucked. So they weren't good. But everyone who showed some promise in limited roles or as rookie starters in 2023 proved to you that they are going to be great. Doesn't work that way. Huh? What are you even talking about here? We are comparing one season to one season...not future projected seasons. So how does any of this matter in a one to one discussion? I have presented to you that I think the offense in 2023 was a better group as a whole than 2021...in which you then switched to 2020 when you saw the receivers were less impressive in 2021 than 2020...but now you keep responding with this one guy was better than this one guy when there are 11 guys on the field. Or this one stat without any context means this or that. So we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Which is fine, it’s not like there is a huge discrepancy in talent one way or the other between 2020 and 2023 anyway, it’s more opinion than anything. Edited May 29 by Alphadawg7 2 Quote
Royale with Cheese Posted May 29 Posted May 29 1 hour ago, BillsVet said: Josh accounted for 21% of the team's rushing yards under Dorsey. It was 30% under Brady. Dorsey's offense averaged 26.2 points and Brady was 27.1. The same personnel group with a healthy OL managed to score 1 point more per game, but it took Josh running it more. If they're committed to not running Josh as much, it's a big question where they'll replace that production. Because the running game was less efficient last year under Brady even with Josh carrying it more often. The team went on a 6 game skid of scoring 20 ppg and it was getting worse. That's why Dorsey was fired. It was a complete opposite, night and day after the Dolphins game. There is much more context into that 26.2 ppg game when Dorsey left because it was 3 great games, fell off of a cliff after that with no signs of improvement. Brady also faced the hardest part of our schedule with KC, Philly and Dallas...scored 28.3 ppg in those games. Allen has to take on some responsibility for the poor productions as well. This year he missed wide open WR's more than he ever has....especially deep. Something was off with him. He also was more careless with the ball this year and had his highest INT % since his rookie year. The fanbase was very loud about the coaching staff asking Josh to be more conservative and not run...then we run him and now it's too much. Quote
SCBills Posted May 29 Posted May 29 2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: The team went on a 6 game skid of scoring 20 ppg and it was getting worse. That's why Dorsey was fired. It was a complete opposite, night and day after the Dolphins game. There is much more context into that 26.2 ppg game when Dorsey left because it was 3 great games, fell off of a cliff after that with no signs of improvement. Brady also faced the hardest part of our schedule with KC, Philly and Dallas...scored 28.3 ppg in those games. Allen has to take on some responsibility for the poor productions as well. This year he missed wide open WR's more than he ever has....especially deep. Something was off with him. He also was more careless with the ball this year and had his highest INT % since his rookie year. The fanbase was very loud about the coaching staff asking Josh to be more conservative and not run...then we run him and now it's too much. Slight pushback regarding the difficult part of the schedule (Dallas excluded), we did start running Allen more. I want to see us run a functioning Offense without needing the cheat code that is Allen running. Big games/Playoffs, run all he wants, but they had the right idea heading into last season, albeit the execution and mindset being way off as Allen was essentially afraid to run..at all. Quote
Royale with Cheese Posted May 29 Posted May 29 2 minutes ago, SCBills said: Slight pushback regarding the difficult part of the schedule (Dallas excluded), we did start running Allen more. I want to see us run a functioning Offense without needing the cheat code that is Allen running. Big games/Playoffs, run all he wants, but they had the right idea heading into last season, albeit the execution and mindset being way off as Allen was essentially afraid to run..at all. If we were lighting it up in the passing game like we normally do, we would have kept passing. But we needed some sort of production in our offense and that came when Allen became more of a dual threat. If Allen running is a cheat code, we need to use it. Our offense was putrid before Brady took over. Our offense didn't light it up but he at least got the ship righted in the better direction. Do we not remember being held scoreless until the 4th on prime time TV against the Giants? Or virtually nothing in the Jags game until the last 2 drives. Embarrassing MNF opener? Losing to the Broncos because we couldn't move the ball on that defense. We were poor to very poor 7 out of 10 games with Dorsey. 1 Quote
SCBills Posted May 29 Posted May 29 7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: If we were lighting it up in the passing game like we normally do, we would have kept passing. But we needed some sort of production in our offense and that came when Allen became more of a dual threat. If Allen running is a cheat code, we need to use it. Our offense was putrid before Brady took over. Our offense didn't light it up but he at least got the ship righted in the better direction. Do we not remember being held scoreless until the 4th on prime time TV against the Giants? Or virtually nothing in the Jags game until the last 2 drives. Embarrassing MNF opener? Losing to the Broncos because we couldn't move the ball on that defense. We were poor to very poor 7 out of 10 games with Dorsey. I don't disagree with the Dorsey comments, but Brady did get the benefit of being able to "unleash" Allen. We clearly weren't doing that with Dorsey, and it's not sustainable to be doing that year in / year out. Allen needs to scramble though, just like Mahomes does all the time.. and under Dorsey, he was clearly coached not to do that, which made him way too tentative. 1 Quote
BillsVet Posted May 29 Posted May 29 40 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: The team went on a 6 game skid of scoring 20 ppg and it was getting worse. That's why Dorsey was fired. It was a complete opposite, night and day after the Dolphins game. There is much more context into that 26.2 ppg game when Dorsey left because it was 3 great games, fell off of a cliff after that with no signs of improvement. Brady also faced the hardest part of our schedule with KC, Philly and Dallas...scored 28.3 ppg in those games. Allen has to take on some responsibility for the poor productions as well. This year he missed wide open WR's more than he ever has....especially deep. Something was off with him. He also was more careless with the ball this year and had his highest INT % since his rookie year. The fanbase was very loud about the coaching staff asking Josh to be more conservative and not run...then we run him and now it's too much. The fanbase doesn't have any input for coordinating the offense with Josh, so their opinion matters zero. OTOH, McD's been talking about reducing Josh's carries a couple years now...and then all 3 of his OC's who coached Josh ended up doing the same thing. A team with solid receivers doesn't have to do that to score points with a franchise QB. Josh Allen is the last guy anyone should be blaming for their poor performance. It's just typical homers who are unable to see the scheme and talent are mis-aligned with his talents. This offense and the entire team are bottom of the NFL-caliber without him. Besides, the universally regarded best QB in the game threw 14 INT's last year to a depleted receiver group. Think those 2 items aren't related? I see a couple things happening this year. They'll again try evening out the run-pass balance and it'll lead to less offensive production. Josh will struggle throwing to this bottom-tier group of receivers and they'll be right back to him running it again. The offense will continue to struggle and people will blame Josh. The same people like yourself completely ignorant to the fact personnel decisions made Josh's situation harder but easily blame him. This offense has now 8 years into this regime no true offensive identity besides Josh needing to elevate the skilled talent and carry the ball himself. 1 1 Quote
Royale with Cheese Posted May 29 Posted May 29 12 minutes ago, BillsVet said: The fanbase doesn't have any input for coordinating the offense with Josh, so their opinion matters zero. OTOH, McD's been talking about reducing Josh's carries a couple years now...and then all 3 of his OC's who coached Josh ended up doing the same thing. A team with solid receivers doesn't have to do that to score points with a franchise QB. Josh Allen is the last guy anyone should be blaming for their poor performance. It's just typical homers who are unable to see the scheme and talent are mis-aligned with his talents. This offense and the entire team are bottom of the NFL-caliber without him. Besides, the universally regarded best QB in the game threw 14 INT's last year to a depleted receiver group. Think those 2 items aren't related? I see a couple things happening this year. They'll again try evening out the run-pass balance and it'll lead to less offensive production. Josh will struggle throwing to this bottom-tier group of receivers and they'll be right back to him running it again. The offense will continue to struggle and people will blame Josh. The same people like yourself completely ignorant to the fact personnel decisions made Josh's situation harder but easily blame him. This offense has now 8 years into this regime no true offensive identity besides Josh needing to elevate the skilled talent and carry the ball himself. So that means your opinion doesn't matter too then right? Just because Allen is our best and important piece doesn't mean he can't be criticized at all. If he misses a wide open WR and throws the balls directly into the hands of a defender....that's his fault. But he does more good than bad by a mile but he isn't perfect or immune to any criticism. I am ignorant because I said Allen has played poor at times. What a weak and lame statement dude lol. Allen has thrown the most INT's in the last 5 years than any QB. He threw 29 INT's the two years prior when he had more weapons. But seems like since Allen is overall great, everyone of those INTS and turnovers are everyone else fault. The offense since Allen has taken over as full time starter has scored the 5th most points. If they didn't have a canceled game, they probably would be 3rd. Allen has to carry the ball himself? For the last 4 seasons, he had one of the most productive WR's in the game. I think Davante Adams is the only WR with more receptions than Diggs in that stretch. https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-points-scored-since-2019-nfl Quote
NewEra Posted May 29 Posted May 29 4 hours ago, SaulGoodman said: It’s not that hard to add a few lbs with NFL training and resources. Even if he doesn’t, Desean Jackson was a twig. Would you have passed on him too? Like John Ross? Phillip Dorsett? Roscoe Parrish? Will fuller? Andy isabella? Mecole hardman? Tavon austin? Sinorice Moss? there a more WAY more skinny’s that weren’t able to excel than were able to. No, I wouldn’t pass on Jackson, but I’d pass on most others. Quote
BillsVet Posted May 29 Posted May 29 1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said: So that means your opinion doesn't matter too then right? Just because Allen is our best and important piece doesn't mean he can't be criticized at all. If he misses a wide open WR and throws the balls directly into the hands of a defender....that's his fault. But he does more good than bad by a mile but he isn't perfect or immune to any criticism. I am ignorant because I said Allen has played poor at times. What a weak and lame statement dude lol. Allen has thrown the most INT's in the last 5 years than any QB. He threw 29 INT's the two years prior when he had more weapons. But seems like since Allen is overall great, everyone of those INTS and turnovers are everyone else fault. The offense since Allen has taken over as full time starter has scored the 5th most points. If they didn't have a canceled game, they probably would be 3rd. Allen has to carry the ball himself? For the last 4 seasons, he had one of the most productive WR's in the game. I think Davante Adams is the only WR with more receptions than Diggs in that stretch. https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-points-scored-since-2019-nfl Your claim as TBD's best sophist is noted. Quote
ColoradoBills Posted May 29 Posted May 29 20 hours ago, FireChans said: The offense was so talented in 2023 that Allen had to rush 9 times per game for the last 7 games to save the season and get us in the playoffs. For those keeping score at home, that’s a 153 carry pace on a full season. That would’ve ranked 37th in the NFL last year. Elite RB2 type numbers. And as much as Shakir and Kincaid “came on” during Brady’s reign, Allen had a putrid completion percentage of 60%, threw 10 TD’s to 7 INT’s, with a passer rating of 85. If this is Josh Allen released with Kincaid and Shakir as the focal points, it sounds like it’s gonna be a disaster lmao. Good grief. Diggs and Davis were on the field almost the entire time. MAYBE Josh wouldn't of ran so much if these 2 "top" Bills receivers did a better job getting open and catching the football. Go look at both of their game logs for the end of the season. They both sucked. Shakir and Kincaid excelled because it got to the point that Josh wasn't even looking for Davis and Diggs was regressing (for whatever reason). This gives me some hope that subtracting those 2 from the roster may be an overall benefit in the long run. So, we now have 2 different opinions of why Josh ran so much. 1 1 Quote
FireChans Posted May 29 Posted May 29 2 hours ago, ColoradoBills said: Good grief. Diggs and Davis were on the field almost the entire time. MAYBE Josh wouldn't of ran so much if these 2 "top" Bills receivers did a better job getting open and catching the football. Go look at both of their game logs for the end of the season. They both sucked. Shakir and Kincaid excelled because it got to the point that Josh wasn't even looking for Davis and Diggs was regressing (for whatever reason). This gives me some hope that subtracting those 2 from the roster may be an overall benefit in the long run. So, we now have 2 different opinions of why Josh ran so much. I agree that Diggs and Davis weren’t good enough. that’s why I REALLY don’t agree with trotting out a worse group this year lol. Quote
ColoradoBills Posted May 29 Posted May 29 3 minutes ago, FireChans said: I agree that Diggs and Davis weren’t good enough. that’s why I REALLY don’t agree with trotting out a worse group this year lol. They became ineffective. Thus, they were replaced with targets moving towards Kincaid and Shakir. Kincaid and Shakir responded with catch rates of over 80% each. If Davis and Diggs were catching that, they both would still be on the team. You say, "they are worse". I say, "they looked pretty good to me". The answer will only be obtained during the season. 1 1 1 Quote
FireChans Posted May 29 Posted May 29 Just now, ColoradoBills said: They became ineffective. Thus, they were replaced with targets moving towards Kincaid and Shakir. Kincaid and Shakir responded with catch rates of over 80% each. If Davis and Diggs were catching that, they both would still be on the team. You say, "they are worse". I say, "they looked pretty good to me". The answer will only be obtained during the season. Brother, the post I was responding to was claiming the 2023 Bills was the best offensive grouping Josh has played with lol. I think you are arguing with the wrong person. Quote
Augie Posted May 29 Posted May 29 4 minutes ago, FireChans said: I agree that Diggs and Davis weren’t good enough. that’s why I REALLY don’t agree with trotting out a worse group this year lol. So, you’ve already decided? I was going to wait and watch some football games before doing that. I’m on record as having expected way more from Davis last year, and I was wrong. I saw Diggs look like he was hurt or he quit mid season, and having to wonder which it was bothers me. I want guys who try and can catch. Maybe we have that, if not an elite WR. Unless we surprise this year with the WR’s, I expect it to be a high priority again next year. But I’ll wait and see what happens. 1 Quote
ColoradoBills Posted May 29 Posted May 29 (edited) 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: Brother, the post I was responding to was claiming the 2023 Bills was the best offensive grouping Josh has played with lol. I think you are arguing with the wrong person. I apologize if I lost all the trains of thoughts in the thread. I thought you were part of the WR "crisis" group. Edited May 29 by ColoradoBills Quote
FireChans Posted May 29 Posted May 29 3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: I apologize if I lost all the trains of thoughts in the thread. I thought you were part of the WR "crisis" group. I’m not part of any group. I don’t think the 2023 receiving group was good enough. I think there’s a distinct chance that the 2024 group is worse. I don’t like that. 11 minutes ago, Augie said: So, you’ve already decided? I was going to wait and watch some football games before doing that. I’m on record as having expected way more from Davis last year, and I was wrong. I saw Diggs look like he was hurt or he quit mid season, and having to wonder which it was bothers me. I want guys who try and can catch. Maybe we have that, if not an elite WR. Unless we surprise this year with the WR’s, I expect it to be a high priority again next year. But I’ll wait and see what happens. Yeah, I’ve already decided. Shakir is going into year 3. The chance of him turning into Diggs or AB 2.0 is probably pretty low. Samuel is a 7 year vet. He is who he is. Coleman is a relative unknown but I really don’t like his ceiling. He’s the “if he’s your #1, you don’t have a #1,” type player. I could be wrong. But I doubt it. You doubt it too I think, because you think WR will be a high priority again next year ALREADY. How can you argue this group is anything other than not good enough when you think replacing some of them is our biggest priority in 2025 lol Quote
hondo in seattle Posted May 30 Posted May 30 23 hours ago, SCBills said: Slight pushback regarding the difficult part of the schedule (Dallas excluded), we did start running Allen more. I want to see us run a functioning Offense without needing the cheat code that is Allen running. Big games/Playoffs, run all he wants, but they had the right idea heading into last season, albeit the execution and mindset being way off as Allen was essentially afraid to run..at all. Wholeheartedly agree. Allen has a talent for running and we'd be dumb not to use it. But we'd be dumb to overuse it when it (presumably) heightens the risk of injury. It felt like the passing game underperformed most of last year. There were games when Josh looked a little off - either throwing to the wrong guy or just off with his placement. And there were games where we weren't seeing a lot of open receivers. And while the OL was better than previous seasons, there were days when Josh made a struggling OL look good by rolling around and avoiding the rush. We can't fix all of that. But I hope Brady schemes a better offense than what we saw last year. If he does, we won't have to rely on Josh's legs very often. 1 Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted May 30 Posted May 30 On 5/29/2024 at 11:06 AM, Alphadawg7 said: I mean I have literally stated in every post now that the offense is more than just the receivers. But you are just manipulating information now, and you are know that. We threw for more yards in 2020 than 2023 because we didn't run the ball in 2020 nearly as much as 2023. So you are saying the top 5 guys averaged more because it was a Daboll pass first offense with a top heavy pass attack (especially to Diggs) in 2020 compared to a more balanced and spread the ball around attack and the utilization of a TE as the 2nd top targeted player in 2023. But you are just trying to isolate and cherry pick random stats that are about offensive philosophy between different OCs than overall offensive talent without any context to the data being applied. Daboll's style of offense was very different than the style of 2023. Maybe you like his style better, but that doesn't mean the talent level of the players was better overall as an offense. There are 5 guys that make up an OL...not 2 and PFF rating system is worthless. Besides, I don't care which year had the best individual...I am talking the best unit as a whole, which includes run blocking and pass blocking. And we all know PFF grades mean very little. Huh? What are you even talking about here? We are comparing one season to one season...not future projected seasons. So how does any of this matter in a one to one discussion? I have presented to you that I think the offense in 2023 was a better group as a whole than 2021...in which you then switched to 2020 when you saw the receivers were less impressive in 2021 than 2020...but now you keep responding with this one guy was better than this one guy when there are 11 guys on the field. Or this one stat without any context means this or that. So we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Which is fine, it’s not like there is a huge discrepancy in talent one way or the other between 2020 and 2023 anyway, it’s more opinion than anything. You really should start a thread on this notion that the Bills weapons last year were the best since Josh Allen was a Bill. That would be entertaining. Quote
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