Ticketmaster Live Nation Antitrust

[Rampant Buffalo]

Imagine an ambitious and somewhat unscrupulous businessman. He decides to compete with Ticketmaster head-on. He creates two companies. He names the real company World Ticket. He runs that company himself. There is also a second company, headed by one of the businessman's associates. The goal of this second company isn't to gain sales. Its mission is to achieve name recognition. That, and literally nothing else. 

 

What is the name of this second company? Ticket African Slave. The more people hear the name Ticket African Slave, the less they're going to like the name Ticketmaster. 

 

What our ambitious and unscrupulous businessman really wants is protests. Protests directed against the ugly racial implications of a name like Ticketmaster. The name Ticketmaster doesn't currently have racial implications, but our ambitious businessman is determined to change that. So he sits down with some kind of community leader. He says, "Listen. You have a thousand followers. I wouldn't mind at all, if you got a bunch of those followers together to protest the ugly racial implications of a name like Ticketmaster. I'm guessing you wouldn't mind if an extra ten grand appeared in your bank account. What do you say we work together?" He'd create an initial wave of protests by using that tactic. Once the initial wave got extensive media coverage, a follow-on wave will occur on its own, without the businessman having to pay for it.

 

Event planners wouldn't want to deal with this stuff, so they'd switch to World Ticket instead.

 

Okay, so the events I've described above are more likely not to happen, than they are to happen. That said, I wouldn't shed a tear if they did happen, because I hate Ticketmaster!

[T&C]

Tickets used to be 6-8-10 bucks back in the 70's... and 25 or so in the 80's for big names. The math doesn't add up to what they are charging nowadays. Before Harvey was known to be a "fill in the blank", Harvey & Corky Burger put out a ton of shows in Buffalo with quality bands for a good price. It's a money grab now... just like the price of a beer at a concert or a game. 

 

I'm sure others here have some stubs from these days:

 

https://www.setlist.fm/venue/century-theatre-buffalo-ny-usa-73d73619.html?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2AHLd_JL2Ql400IL-NiMdz7K8BpCh9sOwEn71RkMnzGeHizOojOxM_bQ8_aem_AWrGgAde0Tf-MULU-jZBAPhjjXwNdmlok-dtjvQL4uYtfYBY7gr88D94JqJjlJugCIS_yrlK1pKqPps4vyDjfMdA

[RiotAct]

12 hours ago, MikePJ76 said:

Gee could have just listened to Pearl Jam 30 years ago..  

 

But everyone hung them out to dry and none of the other big bands/artists in any genre stood with them.  

 

 

haha, now even  they list a decent portion of the really good seats as “PJ Premium” 😬

[Kirby Jackson]

Lots of thoughts on the topic:

- Fees have gotten crazy (specific to the primary market).

- Because a venue only has 1 ticketing partner it is realistic to control those fees. They have a right to make money but they also are a monopoly in a sense.

- The secondary market cannot and should not be regulated. It’s basic supply and demand. The tickets cost what someone is willing to pay and someone else is willing to accept. That’s the Leafs at Sabres model.

- It’s hard for new ticket brokering sites to gain market share because TM & Stub Hub have so much $. It’s tough for anyone to close that gap. 
- Whoever can master a calculated gamble on futures would be able to find an audience. As an example of what I am referring to is something like, “pay $200 for the right to buy 2 Bills playoff tickets for all rounds at face value. If the Bills don’t host you're out $200. If they get there, you saved a bunch of money.” People have tried stuff like this but none have been really successful to my knowledge. It’s like the prop swap concept for those gamblers out there. It’s more of a big sporting event concept but it’s interesting imo.

[Logic]

Good. Long overdue.

Between the absolutely ridiculous surcharges and service fees, the "dynamic pricing" they've instituted, and the fact that they themselves are now ALSO scalpers -- not to MENTION the fact that they are the very definition of a monopoly...

It is way, way past time for Ticketmaster/Live Nation to be reined in. No one who has tried to buy tickets to a concert of any renown through them in the past decade could reasonably reach any other conclusion.

And yes, we all would have saved a lot of time and effort if we had listened to Pearl Jam on this issue 30 years ago.

Edited May 24 by Logic

[jkeerie]

9 minutes ago, Logic said:

Good. Long overdue.

Between the absolutely ridiculous surcharges and service fees, the "dynamic pricing" they've instituted, and the fact that they themselves are now ALSO scalpers -- not to MENTION the fact that they are the very definition of a monopoly...

It is way, way past time for Ticketmaster/Live Nation to be reined in. No one who has tried to buy tickets to a concert of any renown through them in the past decade could reasonably reach any other conclusion.

And yes, we all would have saved a lot of time and effort if we had listened to Pearl Jam on this issue 30 years ago.

They were saying it was cheaper for people to fly to Paris and watch the Taylor Swift concert there, than try to catch a concert in the US.

[Don Otreply]

Capitalism only works correctly when it is properly regulated.

Edited May 25 by Don Otreply

[T master]

I've worked the concert and entertainment business for the last 15 yrs & live nation has had a strangle hold on the entertainment business for a long time its about time they got a little less power over that industry . 

 

At one time i heard they were thinking of buying out the Entertainer coach industry which i work in to have control over more than just the operations of the entertainment industry but it's transportation part of the industry too, but with this i don't see that happening .

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:07 AM, T&C said:

Tickets used to be 6-8-10 bucks back in the 70's... and 25 or so in the 80's for big names. The math doesn't add up to what they are charging nowadays. Before Harvey was known to be a "fill in the blank", Harvey & Corky Burger put out a ton of shows in Buffalo with quality bands for a good price. It's a money grab now... just like the price of a beer at a concert or a game. 

 

I'm sure others here have some stubs from these days:

 

https://www.setlist.fm/venue/century-theatre-buffalo-ny-usa-73d73619.html?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2AHLd_JL2Ql400IL-NiMdz7K8BpCh9sOwEn71RkMnzGeHizOojOxM_bQ8_aem_AWrGgAde0Tf-MULU-jZBAPhjjXwNdmlok-dtjvQL4uYtfYBY7gr88D94JqJjlJugCIS_yrlK1pKqPps4vyDjfMdA

Harv was still a ***** back then, ticket prices notwithstanding 

[billsfan714]

I was pricing tickets for the Stones in Cleveland, yeah Im a geezer and I dont go to a lot of concerts, but was astonished that the fees on 2 tickets were almost the cost of one of the tickets.   I paid for a parking pass and it had fees on it.   Just blew my mind.

[TheWei44]

Food for thought:  Pricing in a competitive market with 100 pizza joints will be competitive.  Pricing in a (legal) monopoly will not be competitive.  So the question is not "Are TM's prices too high"? but rather "Are TM's prices higher than they should be in a monopoly or similar setting?"  Another issue is whether the monopolist has engaged in conduct that has harmed the competitive process.

[DaVinci]

I highly doubt the NFL  will allow a basket of  ticket sellers to sell tickets. I think it will still be Ticketmaster.

[dma0034]

Wonder what Ticketmaster is going to do after the hack. Send all customers 15 bucks

[PetermansRedemption]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:00 AM, Kirby Jackson said:

Lots of thoughts on the topic:

- Fees have gotten crazy (specific to the primary market).

- Because a venue only has 1 ticketing partner it is realistic to control those fees. They have a right to make money but they also are a monopoly in a sense.

- The secondary market cannot and should not be regulated. It’s basic supply and demand. The tickets cost what someone is willing to pay and someone else is willing to accept. That’s the Leafs at Sabres model.

- It’s hard for new ticket brokering sites to gain market share because TM & Stub Hub have so much $. It’s tough for anyone to close that gap. 
- Whoever can master a calculated gamble on futures would be able to find an audience. As an example of what I am referring to is something like, “pay $200 for the right to buy 2 Bills playoff tickets for all rounds at face value. If the Bills don’t host you're out $200. If they get there, you saved a bunch of money.” People have tried stuff like this but none have been really successful to my knowledge. It’s like the prop swap concept for those gamblers out there. It’s more of a big sporting event concept but it’s interesting imo.

I would have agreed with you before the extremely sophisticated bots that now exist. Back then you could line up at HSBC Arena and get good seats. Now, average Joe has absolutely no chance at snagging good tickets. The market now operates as Venue—>Ticketmaster (who adds exorbitant fees)——>scalper (who adds insane markup)—->average Joe consumer. 

Edited May 31 by PetermansRedemption

[PBF81]

What's ironic is that with paper tix you could get arrested depending upon where you were selling if you sold for more than face.  Granted, many places didn't care, but many did.  But apparently if you're a corporation you can charge more straight out of the gate.  And years ago, not sure whether it's still the case, but TM had a subsidiary or an arrangement with another company, which bought tix in seconds after the initial sale, the best seats of course which no one else had a chance to get, and they immediately went up on the other site for quite a bit more.  There may have been a lawsuit over that too.  

On 5/24/2024 at 3:07 AM, T&C said:

Tickets used to be 6-8-10 bucks back in the 70's... and 25 or so in the 80's for big names. The math doesn't add up to what they are charging nowadays. Before Harvey was known to be a "fill in the blank", Harvey & Corky Burger put out a ton of shows in Buffalo with quality bands for a good price. It's a money grab now... just like the price of a beer at a concert or a game. 

 

I'm sure others here have some stubs from these days:

 

https://www.setlist.fm/venue/century-theatre-buffalo-ny-usa-73d73619.html?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2AHLd_JL2Ql400IL-NiMdz7K8BpCh9sOwEn71RkMnzGeHizOojOxM_bQ8_aem_AWrGgAde0Tf-MULU-jZBAPhjjXwNdmlok-dtjvQL4uYtfYBY7gr88D94JqJjlJugCIS_yrlK1pKqPps4vyDjfMdA

 

It used to be too that you could actually go to the venue's box office and buy them without the fees, straight face value.  Can't even do that anymore.  It was good if you were trying to get more than one or two tix, worth the trip to the box office.  

 

Not sure whether it was the same company, but it used to be called Ticketron.  

 

 

[US Egg]

Legalized scalping and don’t even have to go stand outside arenas and stadiums to huckster for a few bucks.

 

Use to be fun to haggle for tickets before games

[PBF81]

FWIW ... 

 

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1335258/000119312512075895/d277780dex211.htm

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

On 5/31/2024 at 7:37 PM, PetermansRedemption said:

I would have agreed with you before the extremely sophisticated bots that now exist. Back then you could line up at HSBC Arena and get good seats. Now, average Joe has absolutely no chance at snagging good tickets. The market now operates as Venue—>Ticketmaster (who adds exorbitant fees)——>scalper (who adds insane markup)—->average Joe consumer. 

It’s a fair point but again, if average Joe consumer is paying for those tickets at an insane markup, isn’t that what the market will support? That’s why I specifically used that Leafs at Sabres example. The Leafs fans are willing to pay a number that most casual Sabres fans aren’t willing to pay. The Sabres fans that own many of those seats are willing to accept that insane price even if it is from a Leafs fan. 
 

I think that the bots are more of an issue for one off events like a concert. You are limited with alternatives for something like that. It’s not like, “I wanted Taylor Swift tickets but their too expensive so I’ll go see Jethro Tull.”
 

You can get tickets to see your team play pretty easily. It’s just more expensive on a weekend and vs. a better opponent. That has always been the case. Teams just weren’t sophisticated enough to implement variable pricing until 20 years or so. If you’re a Yankee fan and want to see them in the stadium, you can see them play the Twins on a Tuesday night for $11. If you want to see them play the Dodgers on a Saturday, it’s going to cost more. 

[That's No Moon]

On 5/31/2024 at 6:12 PM, dma0034 said:

Wonder what Ticketmaster is going to do after the hack. Send all customers 15 bucks

Send them all NFTs of a 10 and a 5.

[Buffalo716]

On 5/31/2024 at 9:47 PM, PBF81 said:

What's ironic is that with paper tix you could get arrested depending upon where you were selling if you sold for more than face.  Granted, many places didn't care, but many did.  But apparently if you're a corporation you can charge more straight out of the gate.  And years ago, not sure whether it's still the case, but TM had a subsidiary or an arrangement with another company, which bought tix in seconds after the initial sale, the best seats of course which no one else had a chance to get, and they immediately went up on the other site for quite a bit more.  There may have been a lawsuit over that too.  

 

It used to be too that you could actually go to the venue's box office and buy them without the fees, straight face value.  Can't even do that anymore.  It was good if you were trying to get more than one or two tix, worth the trip to the box office.  

 

Not sure whether it was the same company, but it used to be called Ticketron.  

 

 

When I still go to the tralf, to listen to music... Which is the great venue connected to Sheas

 

I still go right to the ticket counter to purchase tickets and avoid fees 

 

I think you could still go up to the ticket counter at the Bills stadium and buy tickets too