What schemes/concepts would you like to see carry over into this season?

LABILLBACKER · May 22

One play I can do without is the pass behind the LOS. And at least reduce the triple stack wr screen. I'm rooting hard for Claypool to not only make this team but have an impact. He could act as the "double dip" wr we didn't draft. I would like to see less blitzing out of frustration like Shaw and others referred to. I trust whatever combo package McD/Babich come up with, but it's all meaningless if our D can't stay healthy.

Edited May 22 by LABILLBACKER

3rdand12 · May 22

6 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

For all his accolades, Aaron Kromer is still underrated. Morse, McGovern, Brown & Edwards are run of the mill players and Dawkins is overrated, imo. Yet they were among the Leagues best rated units last season. Now, Morse is gone, McGovern is Center (presumably) Edward’s moves up. It’s Kromer’s skill -and Allen’s run & threat to run that makes them seem great. My solution, start Ray Davis at RB. I think he’s already a stud and will excel from the jump. Cook can be the 3rd Down back.As for Defense, I have no idea what we have. There’s no single rush threat from the edge, the Secondary is a mess and Milano’s health is unknown. Bass sucked after signing an extension and I also have no idea what to expect with kickoffs -except that Bass typically knocks them through the other uprights -which will kill us allowing opponents to start at the 40.

So, Surprise Surprise! Josh does everything or the Bills will be on the golf courses in Florida after New Year’s Day.

🤷‍♂️

I never underrated Kromer !

One of my favorite hires

Did not see results tight away. But last year we sure did

I expect the O line and supporting cast who block and create running and passing lanes etc will improve this season

HoofHearted · May 22

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

There aren't any. Him being a top 10 offensive mind in the NFL is one of several best case scenarios that need to come to fruition for this offense to be at a championship level. He was thought to be something of an offensive savant in his time at LSU so the hope is that with a full offseason to install his own offense he will prove to be at that level. I'm not particularly optimistic but he'll get his chance.

I assume you mean without a true field stretcher. To that I would still definitely say no. MVS is going to be our field stretcher and that's why they signed him - the role was missing from the roster. I don't believe you can have a high level NFL offense without a true field stretcher, even if it's just of the Gabe Davis variety running decoy/clear out routes downfield. The defense has to at least respect that area of the field.

I see what the team is trying to do. They're trying to build a more consistent, less boom or bust, move the chains offense where the explosive plays are created more after the catch than before the catch. They're going big outside and quick/fast inside. I have zero issues with the philosophy, I'm just not convinced the talent and/or coaching is great enough to make it all run at a championship level.

I think you're spot on with the field stretcher comment. Deep Choice, I'm sure, will still be a big part of this offenses vertical passing game where MVS/Claypool will be running the collector routes (sole purpose is to pull coverage to open stuff underneath) so that Kincaid will be able to work off the underneath coverage defenders and find the soft spots in zone. I see a lot of Mills passing concepts for us with Kincaid running the Dig.

34-78-83 · May 22

I'm with those that would like to see more play-action pass plays with Josh under-center (not in Shotgun).

HoofHearted · May 22

12 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

I'm with those that would like to see more play-action pass plays with Josh under-center (not in Shotgun).

There's been many here that have made this comment. I guess I'm left wondering why? Why take away our offenses greatest asset by putting our QB under center?

3rdand12 · May 22

35 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

yeah exactly

I don't think this is the kind of roster or staff that can finesse their way to a championship. I truly don't and I believe the results thus far (esp your bolded) back that up 100%. I think they like to believe they can and that's where all the talk about 'complementary football' comes from...but a high variance offense is actually going to leave them more room for error.

I believe there's a real incongruity between how the FO imagines this team should look like and the realities of their own capacity for succeeding in that style. And I think it's going to come to a head this season.

Well then , it should

I am less doubtful and certainly more hopeful

Also , i do think they will be able to keep defenses honest often enough. I mean that is Offense 101

if we cant the season ends early

We should know what up 1/4 way through the season. Can Brady adjust to Defenses adjustment to our new trends ?

This is for you two Jauronimo 😉

expand to see bolded . please

Edited May 22 by 3rdand12

Chandler#81 · May 22

6 hours ago, Htt2821 said:

Cook was 6th in the league in All Purpose yards and you want him as the 3rd down back? That’s….something.

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

It's mad.

I stand by my position. Cook is on his only contract.

DeepPass · May 22

12 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

There's been enough discussion around here about schemes and concepts that we all do not want to see again. With new Coordinators on both sides of the ball, what schemes and concepts from last year would you like to see carry over into this season under new leadership?

Personally I'd like for us to continue building on our Dart run concept that was so successful for us last season (click here if you're unfamiliar with the concept). It was by far our most productive run concept we ran, and towards the end of the year I think we got a bit of a glimpse of what's to come this season under Brady as we saw an uptick in the RPO game off of Dart action. My hope is we'll continue to scheme around this concept in order to not only have Dart, Q Dart, and all of the RPO game off of it, but also be able to use the blocking scheme in misdirection off jet/orbit motions.

Defensively we saw a dramatic shift in our coverages going from a primarily Quarters/Cover 2 defense with a steady dose of Cover 3 mixed in to a predominantly Cover 3/Cover 1 defense with a steady dose of Quarters mixed in. With the backers we've been able to add to the team over the last few seasons I think we're at a point where we can feel comfortable sitting in Cover 1 knowing that our guys are athletic enough to get home on pressures. My hope is we continue to lean into this, put pressure on opposing Quarterbacks while still being able to disguise these looks as Cover 3 or Quarters coverages to give help to our secondary.

Thank you for this information

12 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

There's been enough discussion around here about schemes and concepts that we all do not want to see again. With new Coordinators on both sides of the ball, what schemes and concepts from last year would you like to see carry over into this season under new leadership?

Personally I'd like for us to continue building on our Dart run concept that was so successful for us last season (click here if you're unfamiliar with the concept). It was by far our most productive run concept we ran, and towards the end of the year I think we got a bit of a glimpse of what's to come this season under Brady as we saw an uptick in the RPO game off of Dart action. My hope is we'll continue to scheme around this concept in order to not only have Dart, Q Dart, and all of the RPO game off of it, but also be able to use the blocking scheme in misdirection off jet/orbit motions.

Defensively we saw a dramatic shift in our coverages going from a primarily Quarters/Cover 2 defense with a steady dose of Cover 3 mixed in to a predominantly Cover 3/Cover 1 defense with a steady dose of Quarters mixed in. With the backers we've been able to add to the team over the last few seasons I think we're at a point where we can feel comfortable sitting in Cover 1 knowing that our guys are athletic enough to get home on pressures. My hope is we continue to lean into this, put pressure on opposing Quarterbacks while still being able to disguise these looks as Cover 3 or Quarters coverages to give help to our secondary.

I appreciate this "technical" information - Thank You

PBF81 · May 22

12 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

There's been enough discussion around here about schemes and concepts that we all do not want to see again. With new Coordinators on both sides of the ball, what schemes and concepts from last year would you like to see carry over into this season under new leadership?

Personally I'd like for us to continue building on our Dart run concept that was so successful for us last season (click here if you're unfamiliar with the concept). It was by far our most productive run concept we ran, and towards the end of the year I think we got a bit of a glimpse of what's to come this season under Brady as we saw an uptick in the RPO game off of Dart action. My hope is we'll continue to scheme around this concept in order to not only have Dart, Q Dart, and all of the RPO game off of it, but also be able to use the blocking scheme in misdirection off jet/orbit motions.

Defensively we saw a dramatic shift in our coverages going from a primarily Quarters/Cover 2 defense with a steady dose of Cover 3 mixed in to a predominantly Cover 3/Cover 1 defense with a steady dose of Quarters mixed in. With the backers we've been able to add to the team over the last few seasons I think we're at a point where we can feel comfortable sitting in Cover 1 knowing that our guys are athletic enough to get home on pressures. My hope is we continue to lean into this, put pressure on opposing Quarterbacks while still being able to disguise these looks as Cover 3 or Quarters coverages to give help to our secondary.

Where'd you get the data for how successful DART was, both for us as well as league-wide? That would be interesting.

Also, in the video it says that DART is good for teams with athletic Tackles, do we consider Dawkins and Brown to be particularly athletic? Brown certainly doesn't appear to be particularly athletic per se.

It also says "DART is a good solution and wrinkle for Zone Scheme teams and offenses that are having trouble with penetration and other gap scheme plays." Is that us? Granted, we had zero injuries to our OL last season which we cannot assume this season, but it seems that we didn't have any particular consistent difficulty with penetration as such, to the contrary it seems.

Here's an interesting piece that I found while poking around for more info on the topic, it's up to right around the transition from Dorsey to Brady, but the metrics up to that point were good, as the piece points out.

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2023/11/9/23952119/the-offensive-enigma-of-the-2023-buffalo-bills-nfl-analysis

As to this season, it'd be nice to see Allen & the offense doing what Allen does best, but that likely won't happen for several reasons, primary being that we don't have the receiving talent to achieve that to that extent.

It would also be nice to have someone work with Allen to get him to understand the value of the high-percentage passing game, but the time to have done that best was the past four years, not now when we have no "field stretchers" generally speaking and with what will likely be more claustrophobic defenses. If leadership hasn't been able to do that in Allen's five seasons of starting, it's probably not an odds-on bet that it'll happen this season.

It would also be nice to ditch the overly conservative offensive approach defined by our fearless leader's complimentary football approach. Focus on the O, not the D and running game in relying on controlling the game. Again, that also doesn't seem likely to happen.

Edited May 22 by PBF81

Old Coot · May 22

The Bills had some success with condensed formations last year. It's not something you can use all the time but it allowed us to run the ball effectively up the middle. It can also get receivers into space. The outside receivers can run to grass outside and that can open up the middle.

For those not familiar with condensed formations there are several Youtube videos explaining the concept. Here is one:

Here is an explanation you can read:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/02/07/why-the-49ers-use-this-type-of-formation-more-than-anyone/

34-78-83 · May 22

20 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

There's been many here that have made this comment. I guess I'm left wondering why? Why take away our offenses greatest asset by putting our QB under center?

Looking at Josh's effectiveness and historical success on play action from under center when we have a legitimate threat to run the ball is where it started for me. Forgive me for not having numbers to show but I know his under-center #'s are pretty outstanding, and can be found online with the right subscription. He's got a good ball fake game (better deception than non under-center play action) and certainly has a natural aptitude in the roll out game resulting from those formations as well. When they actually do run out of those formations, the run game itself is typically more successful as well. Rb's can get more downhill. I think the better, more deceptive play action achieved from under-center also opens up more of the quick-hitter throws (like to the TE) in our offense. Lastly, I think the pre-snap field scanning information gathering benefits Josh by not having to focus visually on receiving the snap, and he can keep his head up and on a swivel, readying with his hands to receive the snap and processing information about the defense.

22 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Where'd you get the data for how successful DART was, both for us as well as league-wide? That would be interesting.

Also, in the video it says that DART is good for teams with athletic Tackles, do we consider Dawkins and Brown to be particularly athletic? Brown certainly doesn't appear to be particularly athletic per se.

It also says "DART is a good solution and wrinkle for Zone Scheme teams and offenses that are having trouble with penetration and other gap scheme plays." Is that us? Granted, we had zero injuries to our OL last season which we cannot assume this season, but it seems that we didn't have any particular consistent difficulty with penetration as such, to the contrary it seems.

Here's an interesting piece that I found while poking around for more info on the topic, it's up to right around the transition from Dorsey to Brady, but the metrics up to that point were good, as the piece points out.

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2023/11/9/23952119/the-offensive-enigma-of-the-2023-buffalo-bills-nfl-analysis

As to this season, it'd be nice to see Allen & the offense doing what Allen does best, but that likely won't happen for several reasons, primary being that we don't have the receiving talent to achieve that to that extent.

It would also be nice to have someone work with Allen to get him to understand the value of the high-percentage passing game, but the time to have done that best was the past four years, not now when we have no "field stretchers" generally speaking and with what will likely be more claustrophobic defenses. If leadership hasn't been able to do that in Allen's five seasons of starting, it's probably not an odds-on bet that it'll happen this season.

It would also be nice to ditch the overly conservative offensive approach defined by our fearless leader's complimentary football approach. Focus on the O, not the D and running game in relying on controlling the game. Again, that also doesn't seem likely to happen.

Not to go either way on your many points, but Brown was literally among the most athletic measured tackles to ever get drafted by any team, if you have any faith whatsoever in RAS score. Dawkins is also a sneaky good athlete.

Ethan in Cleveland · May 22

I would love to see them run more RB screens. They should have 3-4 per game.

At least one TE screen per game. I would be fine if they never run another WR screen again. Josh can barely complete that throw for some crazy reason.

And then they should run a fake screen at least every other game to take a deep opposite field shot down the field.

The inability to run an effective screen is laughable. With Josh's size and known run threat they should be able to kill teams with effective screens.

ganesh · May 23

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I'd like to see Kincaid run more seams. Early in the year it was mostly all flats and checkdowns and quick hitches. Later in the year we let him fly down the field more and from my memory we tended to have very good success on those plays. With a WR room that I think will struggle to find consistent vertical separation, Kincaid can possibly be our one consistent means of freezing safeties and opening up pass catchers underneath.

There was a time when Gabe and Beasley were involved in highly synchronized play involving those seam routes..I think there was a Baldy breakdown of that play and it was amazing to see how they were absorbing the defender to them while the other was getting the ball. Daboll was a genius

We need James Brown throwing to Josh Allen. It is a play that has been missing since the first playoff game !!!

Htt2821 · May 23

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

I stand by my position. Cook is on his only contract.

He may only get 1 contract with the Bills but saying he is the backup to a kid who has never played a down is just odd.

Florida Bills Fanatic · May 23

When they did blitz, too often they were very simple and easily countered. I would like to see them blitz in conjunction with d-line stunts, use delayed blitzes, or use overload blitzes forcing the QB toward the short side of the field. Most importantly, they need to blitz more selectively and less frequently so that they are less predictable.

Buffalo716 · May 23

13 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Yeah, that’s kind of the nature of it isn’t it. Playing on the edge like that can be very boom or bust. I think what encourages me, even on the plays that didn’t go our way, the design of the scheme was excellent. You could clearly see we were being deliberate with our pressures - not sending guys just to send them - but scheming up protections in order to guarantee someone free or at the worst 1v1 with a RB.

Having personally been in those shoes before I can tell you exactly where those calls are coming from haha. When you’re not getting home with four and just leaving your secondary out to dry your next answer is to start bringing more.

I think McDermott has excellent blitz packages and they are schemed excellent like you said

When 4 don't hit you need to send 5... 5 don't... 6

They didn't always work but he had the design down to maximize free rushers or 1on1 with a back

Richard Noggin · May 23

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

Where'd you get the data for how successful DART was, both for us as well as league-wide? That would be interesting.

Also, in the video it says that DART is good for teams with athletic Tackles, do we consider Dawkins and Brown to be particularly athletic? Brown certainly doesn't appear to be particularly athletic per se.

There is more content (worthwhile stuff, too) to your post beyond what I'm quoting here, but if we were having a f2f convo, right about here I'd say something like, "I'm gonna go ahead and stop you right THERE."

Dawkins and Brown are objectively athletic offensive tackles. Brown in particular tested out as a HISTORICALLY athletic tackle prospect. And Dawkins, despite and/or because he tends to carry more weight in the off-season than some fans prefer, is also a REALLY underrated athlete still, somehow.

There isn't really room for reasonable debate on this point. They ARE athletic when compared to other NFL tackles.

HoofHearted · May 23

3 hours ago, PBF81 said:

1. Where'd you get the data for how successful DART was, both for us as well as league-wide? That would be interesting.

2. Also, in the video it says that DART is good for teams with athletic Tackles, do we consider Dawkins and Brown to be particularly athletic? Brown certainly doesn't appear to be particularly athletic per se.

3. It also says "DART is a good solution and wrinkle for Zone Scheme teams and offenses that are having trouble with penetration and other gap scheme plays." Is that us? Granted, we had zero injuries to our OL last season which we cannot assume this season, but it seems that we didn't have any particular consistent difficulty with penetration as such, to the contrary it seems.

Here's an interesting piece that I found while poking around for more info on the topic, it's up to right around the transition from Dorsey to Brady, but the metrics up to that point were good, as the piece points out.

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2023/11/9/23952119/the-offensive-enigma-of-the-2023-buffalo-bills-nfl-analysis

As to this season, it'd be nice to see Allen & the offense doing what Allen does best, but that likely won't happen for several reasons, primary being that we don't have the receiving talent to achieve that to that extent.

It would also be nice to have someone work with Allen to get him to understand the value of the high-percentage passing game, but the time to have done that best was the past four years, not now when we have no "field stretchers" generally speaking and with what will likely be more claustrophobic defenses. If leadership hasn't been able to do that in Allen's five seasons of starting, it's probably not an odds-on bet that it'll happen this season.

It would also be nice to ditch the overly conservative offensive approach defined by our fearless leader's complimentary football approach. Focus on the O, not the D and running game in relying on controlling the game. Again, that also doesn't seem likely to happen.

1. I did a deep dive into our run game last season and posted the results on here. I'll have to see if I can dig that thread up, but Dart was our most successful run concept. I don't have any data league-wide.

2. Both of our Tackles move well enough to be great pullers, as did Morse, which is why we used him to pull in our pin and pull concepts rather than running the traditional Buck where both guards pull.

3. We've been a base zone run scheme team since McDermott got here. Yes, this is us.

HoofHearted · May 23

3 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

Looking at Josh's effectiveness and historical success on play action from under center when we have a legitimate threat to run the ball is where it started for me. Forgive me for not having numbers to show but 1. I know his under-center #'s are pretty outstanding, and can be found online with the right subscription. He's got a good ball fake game (better deception than non under-center play action) and certainly has a natural aptitude in the 2. roll out game resulting from those formations as well. 2. When they actually do run out of those formations, the run game itself is typically more successful as well. Rb's can get more downhill. I think the better, more deceptive play action achieved from under-center also opens up more of the quick-hitter throws (like to the TE) in our offense. Lastly, I think the pre-snap field scanning information gathering benefits Josh by not having to focus visually on receiving the snap, and he can keep his head up and on a swivel, readying with his hands to receive the snap and processing information about the defense.

1. His play-action numbers are outstanding - as are every other QBs play-action numbers vs normal dropback numbers. It's the whole point of Play Action - to freeze defenders and not allow them to play run or pass and get caught in no mans land. As far as I'm aware there are no sites who break down Play Action from under center vs Play Action from in the gun (would love to see that data if it exists though).

2. This was a common theme I saw during the season last year so I did a deep dive into our run game and found no evidence that suggested we run better from under center than from under the gun. I will try and find that thread and link it here. EDIT: Found the link

Josh under center immediately takes him away as an immediate run threat. We have been so successful as an offense since Josh got here because of his legs, whether he uses them or not, because teams have to account for it. Gun provides that on every single snap and forces a defense to play 11 v 11 football instead of 11 v 10 which is typical of any QB who isn't a run threat. Now does that mean there is no place for anything under center? No. Obviously it's a good wrinkle to have, but with the way modern offenses are run you want to be in gun the majority of the time if you have a dual threat QB because of the stress it puts on a defense to defend the whole field. Additionally, gun allows you to take advantage of the RPO game which is even better than true play action since you are forcing a defender to be wrong regardless of what they do. Now you're getting into situations where you can play 11 v 10 offensively instead of the reverse.

Edited May 23 by HoofHearted

HoofHearted · May 23

1 hour ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

When they did blitz, too often they were very simple and easily countered. I would like to see them blitz in conjunction with d-line stunts, use delayed blitzes, or use overload blitzes forcing the QB toward the short side of the field. Most importantly, they need to blitz more selectively and less frequently so that they are less predictable.

Interesting, I saw the complete opposite of what you mention here and even posted about it during the season in the X's and O's thread (I believe). McDermott was very calculated in his blitzes. He did a phenomenal job imo of predicting and attacking protections, ensuring we were able to get an athlete matched up 1v1 with a RB. That's what you want to see. We used delays, overloads, you name it - it was done. Frequency can always be argued, but ultimately if your more likely to be a successful defense by getting a QB off his spot than if you let him sit back there all day.

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