What schemes/concepts would you like to see carry over into this season?

[Shaw66]

29 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Most important for me is that we continue to incorporate motion with purpose on offense that Brady ramped up as soon as he took over.  And quite honestly, that style of play is exactly why I think our WR room looks the way it does, to be able to continue that philosophy and really scheme guys open.  Our stable of weapons now is mostly made up of unselfish, smart, sure handed, good to great route runners where I think Brady is going to really excel at creating movement to create mismatches, opportunities, and easy throwing lanes for Allen.  Everyone from the recievers, TE's, and backs are here to be able to excel in that style of offense.  

 

 

Your entire post is excellent.  I want to add one more thing to your discussion of the passing game:  Run after catch.  It is one more reason the receiver room looks like it does.  Samuel, Shakir,  Coleman, plus Kincaid and Cook.   Yes, give Allen good passing lanes, but also complete passes in space for these guys to run. 

 

It is what the good, complex passing offenses in the NFL do.  Bills look like they want to get on the bandwagon.

 

Done right, Allen's air yards go down and his yards per completion go up.  

[YattaOkasan]

I remember us using a different dime package a few years ago against mahomes.  Rather than taking an LB off for a DB and only having one; we took a DL off and left Milano, Edmunds, Taron on the field.  I would like to see more of this as LB seems to be a strength of the defense.  It would probably be a edge that comes off if were not getting good heat with them anyway.

[HoofHearted]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I'd like to see Kincaid run more seams. Early in the year it was mostly all flats and checkdowns and quick hitches. Later in the year we let him fly down the field more and from my memory we tended to have very good success on those plays. With a WR room that I think will struggle to find consistent vertical separation, Kincaid can possibly be our one consistent means of freezing safeties and opening up pass catchers underneath.

I don't think you'll see as much vertical passing game from us this year. To me it looks like they want to use pre-snap movement to set up quick hitters more in line with what we saw towards the end of last season. Probably will see a lot more screen game and RPO game this year.

2 hours ago, MJS said:

I also think play action is less effective faking the run from the shotgun, but I don't think Josh likes turning his back to the defense like you need to do when you fake the handoff starting under center. I guess that's an area of growth for him.

Any mesh action between a QB/RB is going to force the defense to, at the very least, stop their feet. Even on true under center play action no one is teaching linebackers to fly downhill anymore until they see ball given. There's too much offenses are doing now to take advantage of that.

1 hour ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

It works in man quite well.  

Works vs zone quite well too. That's why its a staple in essentially every offense. See man throw the mesh. See zone throw the OTB.

[HoofHearted]

21 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

I remember us using a different dime package a few years ago against mahomes.  Rather than taking an LB off for a DB and only having one; we took a DL off and left Milano, Edmunds, Taron on the field.  I would like to see more of this as LB seems to be a strength of the defense.  It would probably be a edge that comes off if were not getting good heat with them anyway.

That wasn't a whole game thing. It was for that specific end of game scenario where they knew KC had to throw to come back. We ended up running a 55 front - two outside 5's and a true 0 tech inside to rush.

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Definitely more cover 3/cover 1 on defense but I also wish Sean had Leslie's patience at times. Too many ill timed blitzes when I felt like he just got frustrated and so blitzed out of anger / frustration. I tend to think that is the worst time to blitz. Whether Sean or Bobby call the D this year I'd like to see some of the coverage evolution from last year continue but with greater patience in the playcalling.

I've never really understood blitzing strategy - when is the right time to blitz.   

 

Contrary, in part, to what you said, it was a common tactic around the league to blitz on third or fourth and five with the game on the line - late, close score, opponent in the red zone.  DC doesn't care at all that the other team knows he's bringing 6; all he knows is he wants to force the ball out of the QB's hands.  Against the Bills and the Chiefs, that's absolutely the right strategy - get the ball out of the QB's hands, because ultimately he's the guy who's going to hurt you.  

 

But for other times in the game, I agree with you.   McDermott seems to blitz when he's unhappy about the pass rush he's getting.   Now, in a sense, I get it.   You need pass rush, and if you aren't getting any other way then, well, I guess you need to blitz.   But the whole point of his defensive philosophy, the basis of it all, is that he'll get pressure with four, with seven deep protecting all the passing territory.  If he gets the right players, trains them well, and makes good defensive calls, the blitz shouldn't be necessary.   If you're doing it right, the blitz is simply a tactic that when called at the right times can get you a big negative play.  

[HappyDays]

20 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I don't think you'll see as much vertical passing game from us this year. To me it looks like they want to use pre-snap movement to set up quick hitters more in line with what we saw towards the end of last season. Probably will see a lot more screen game and RPO game this year.

 

I tend to agree. I think the plan is to run something like the 2022/2023 Chiefs offenses. The Chiefs over those two seasons threw just two TDs total of 20+ air yards.  Mahomes averaged 4.2 air yards per TD throw over those seasons which is insanely low. They became very much a ball control grind out long TD drives kind of offense and I expect us to attempt the same. The addition of Samuel & Coleman tells me we are going to reduce the air yards per throw and try to increase the YAC per throw to make up the difference. I think MVS will have several Gabe Davis-esque 0 reception games where he's running nothing but clear out routes. Not sure I fully agree with the vision but I see the vision.

[GoBills808]

18 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I tend to agree. I think the plan is to run something like the 2022/2023 Chiefs offenses. The Chiefs over those two seasons threw just two TDs total of 20+ air yards.  Mahomes averaged 4.2 air yards per TD throw over those seasons which is insanely low. They became very much a ball control grind out long TD drives kind of offense and I expect us to attempt the same. The addition of Samuel & Coleman tells me we are going to reduce the air yards per throw and try to increase the YAC per throw to make up the difference. I think MVS will have several Gabe Davis-esque 0 reception games where he's running nothing but clear out routes. Not sure I fully agree with the vision but I see the vision.

give me some reasons for optimism that Brady can scheme this effectively

 

because imo the end of last season was not sustainable

[Shaw66]

24 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Not sure I fully agree with the vision but I see the vision.

Are you coming around, perhaps, to having a receiver room with a true field-stretcher?  Don't like, but can see what they're trying to do?

[oldmanfan]

I enjoy reading the comments here.  So many of you have such a deeper understanding of the game than me.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

give me some reasons for optimism that Brady can scheme this effectively

 

There aren't any. Him being a top 10 offensive mind in the NFL is one of several best case scenarios that need to come to fruition for this offense to be at a championship level. He was thought to be something of an offensive savant in his time at LSU so the hope is that with a full offseason to install his own offense he will prove to be at that level. I'm not particularly optimistic but he'll get his chance.

 

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Are you coming around, perhaps, to having a receiver room with a true field-stretcher?  Don't like, but can see what they're trying to do?

 

I assume you mean without a true field stretcher. To that I would still definitely say no. MVS is going to be our field stretcher and that's why they signed him - the role was missing from the roster. I don't believe you can have a high level NFL offense without a true field stretcher, even if it's just of the Gabe Davis variety running decoy/clear out routes downfield. The defense has to at least respect that area of the field.

 

I see what the team is trying to do. They're trying to build a more consistent, less boom or bust, move the chains offense where the explosive plays are created more after the catch than before the catch. They're going big outside and quick/fast inside. I have zero issues with the philosophy, I'm just not convinced the talent and/or coaching is great enough to make it all run at a championship level.

 

Edited May 22 by HappyDays

[Rocky Landing]

Whether it's in two TE formations, or with one of our 6'4" WRs, I'd like to have a receiver that can stretch the field above Kincaid on some of his inside routes to take the pressure off him at the catch point, and then throw some blocks to help him get some YAC.

 

And I'd like to see less of those Jumbo formations where a sixth lineman declares as an eligible receiver. I didn't even realize how often they were running that play until I was at the Bills at Chargers at SoFi (maybe 10 times?). It was pretty much telegraphed every time as the announcer would blare it over the PA: "number 76 is an eligible receiver..." I lost track of how many times it was used in that game, and it should have been a much higher percentage play, as it was generally at third and short. But the number of times the RB (mostly Murray) got stuffed was embarrassing. 

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There aren't any. Him being a top 10 offensive mind in the NFL is one of several best case scenarios that need to come to fruition for this offense to be at a championship level. He was thought to be somewhat of an offensive savant in his time at LSU so the hope is that with a full offseason to install his own offense he will prove to be at that level. I'm not particularly optimistic but he'll get his chance.

 

 

I assume you mean without a true field stretcher. To that I would still definitely say no. MVS is going to be our field stretcher and that's why they signed him - the role was missing from the roster. I don't believe you can have a high level NFL offense without a true field stretcher, even if it's just of the Gabe Davis variety running decoy/clear out routes downfield. The defense has to at least respect that area of the field.

 

I see what the team is trying to do. They're trying to build a more consistent, less boom or bust, move the chains offense where the explosive plays are created more after the catch than before the catch. They're going big outside and quick/fast inside. I have zero issues with the philosophy, I'm just not convinced the talent and/or coaching is great enough to make it all run at a championship level.

That's what I was getting at👍

 

It seems to me we are projecting best case scenarios improvements across the board on offense under the guidance of an untested OC. I actually think the offense has the potential to be pretty bad/ugly...in the past we've hung our hat on historic TD numbers offensively but suddenly moving to ball control is dicey imo

 

The KC playoff loss was a real reminder for me at least of how thin the margins are for that style of offense. It takes such detailed commitment and execution...now we are expecting not only better fundamentals out of lesser players but also better game planning/scheme out of basically a rookie NFL OC? 

[Chandler#81]

4 hours ago, Htt2821 said:

Cook was 6th in the league in All Purpose yards and you want him as the 3rd down back? That’s….something. 

Hes a Constant threat to fumble. That’s SOMETHING!

[Shaw66]

35 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There aren't any. Him being a top 10 offensive mind in the NFL is one of several best case scenarios that need to come to fruition for this offense to be at a championship level. He was thought to be something of an offensive savant in his time at LSU so the hope is that with a full offseason to install his own offense he will prove to be at that level. I'm not particularly optimistic but he'll get his chance.

 

 

I assume you mean without a true field stretcher. To that I would still definitely say no. MVS is going to be our field stretcher and that's why they signed him - the role was missing from the roster. I don't believe you can have a high level NFL offense without a true field stretcher, even if it's just of the Gabe Davis variety running decoy/clear out routes downfield. The defense has to at least respect that area of the field.

 

I see what the team is trying to do. They're trying to build a more consistent, less boom or bust, move the chains offense where the explosive plays are created more after the catch than before the catch. They're going big outside and quick/fast inside. I have zero issues with the philosophy, I'm just not convinced the talent and/or coaching is great enough to make it all run at a championship level.

 

I yhink it comes down to OC and QB.  

[HappyDays]

23 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It seems to me we are projecting best case scenarios improvements across the board on offense under the guidance of an untested OC.

 

I think of these four best case scenarios, three need to happen:

 

1) Dalton Kincaid proves he is a top 3ish pass catching TE.

 

2) Brady proves he is a top 5ish OC.

 

3) Keon Coleman hits the ground running and is immediately capable of being a full time X receiver with 1,000+ yards.

 

4) Chase Claypool suddenly turns his career back around and becomes a 1,000+ yard WR.

 

And I have them ranked in order of how likely I think they are to occur.

 

But all of them are long shots and we need 3/4 of them to come true to have a championship caliber offense IMO.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think of these four best case scenarios, three need to happen:

 

1) Dalton Kincaid proves he is a top 3ish pass catching TE.

 

2) Brady proves he is a top 5ish OC.

 

3) Keon Coleman hits the ground running and is immediately capable of being a full time X receiver with 1,000+ yards.

 

4) Chase Claypool suddenly turns his career back around and becomes a 1,000+ yard WR.

 

And I have them ranked in order of how likely I think they are to occur.

 

But all of them are long shots and we need 3/4 of them to come true to have a championship caliber offense IMO.

 

I think Brady is #1 and Kincaid is #2. But agree otherwise. They are the scenarios.

[Jauronimo]

31 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That's what I was getting at👍

 

It seems to me we are projecting best case scenarios improvements across the board on offense under the guidance of an untested OC. I actually think the offense has the potential to be pretty bad/ugly...in the past we've hung our hat on historic TD numbers offensively but suddenly moving to ball control is dicey imo

 

The KC playoff loss was a real reminder for me at least of how thin the margins are for that style of offense. It takes such detailed commitment and execution...now we are expecting not only better fundamentals out of lesser players but also better game planning/scheme out of basically a rookie NFL OC? 

Totally agree.

 

Everything about the construction of this roster up until this offseason was about scoring fast, getting leads, and rushing the passer/forcing turnovers.  That strategy made a lot of sense.  Of course Von got hurt and didn't bounce back and we couldn't quite execute the rushing the passer part but we could score.  Then after the Miami game, which was a masterful show of what this team was designed to do, we couldn't score fast, slow or otherwise and ball control became the symptom rather than the plan.

 

I am highly skeptical of this team trying to chew clock and put together methodical drives.  Yes, they have done it.  When you no longer have the option to score fast you do what you must.  And Josh was highly reluctant to accept that we couldn't score fast.  Denver, New England, and NY Giants were all games where our inability to score quickly left us having to defend with 2 minutes left and no chance to answer.  The KC game we were in no mans land.  Theres no way we really intended to salt 8 minutes of game clock and punch in a TD at the buzzer.  No way that was the plan. When you give yourself fewer drives by design you better score TDs every possession and play stingy defense otherwise you don't keep pace with premier offenses.

 

If this is really the plan for the 2024 offense then the plan sucks.

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think of these four best case scenarios, three need to happen:

 

1) Dalton Kincaid proves he is a top 3ish pass catching TE.

 

2) Brady proves he is a top 5ish OC.

 

3) Keon Coleman hits the ground running and is immediately capable of being a full time X receiver with 1,000+ yards.

 

4) Chase Claypool suddenly turns his career back around and becomes a 1,000+ yard WR.

 

And I have them ranked in order of how likely I think they are to occur.

 

But all of them are long shots and we need 3/4 of them to come true to have a championship caliber offense IMO.

I think you can add in Shakir turns into a 1250ish type guy which would probably slot in between 3 and 4 for me but yeah

[3rdand12]

9 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

We ran Mesh a ton last year. It was one of the boards least favorite concepts we ran lol.

and did it poorly at times it seemed. WRs mostly

Sure mix it in , Please give def that look so often
The RPO with Josh using his smarts pre and post snap would do wonders imho.

Defense just needs to be less predictable , more coordinated and sure/confident  on the back end with shifts and assignments

 Good thread HH 💪👍

[GoBills808]

22 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Totally agree.

 

Everything about the construction of this roster up until this offseason was about scoring fast, getting leads, and rushing the passer/forcing turnovers.  That strategy made a lot of sense.  Of course Von got hurt and didn't bounce back and we couldn't quite execute the rushing the passer part but we could score.  Then after the Miami game, which was a masterful show of what this team was designed to do, we couldn't score fast, slow or otherwise and ball control became the symptom rather than the plan.

 

I am highly skeptical of this team trying to chew clock and put together methodical drives.  Yes, they have done it.  When you no longer have the option to score fast you do what you must.  And Josh was highly reluctant to accept that we couldn't score fast.  Denver, New England, and NY Giants were all games where our inability to score quickly left us having to defend with 2 minutes left and no chance to answer.  The KC game we were in no mans land.  Theres no way we really intended to salt 8 minutes of game clock and punch in a TD at the buzzer.  No way that was the plan. When you give yourself fewer drives by design you better score TDs every possession and play stingy defense otherwise you don't keep pace with premier offenses.

 

If this is really the plan for the 2024 offense then the plan sucks.

yeah exactly

 

I don't think this is the kind of roster or staff that can finesse their way to a championship. I truly don't and I believe the results thus far (esp your bolded) back that up 100%. I think they like to believe they can and that's where all the talk about 'complementary football' comes from...but a high variance offense is actually going to leave them more room for error.

 

I believe there's a real incongruity between how the FO imagines this team should look like and the realities of their own capacity for succeeding in that style. And I think it's going to come to a head this season.