THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Receivers are a Dime a Dozen

[dancing_joker]

The idea that WRs are a dime a dozen is nonsense. Laughable. Look no further than Allen’s step forward in his development 2019 when we upgraded his WRs.

 

Your post comes off as someone who wants to applaud Beane for being a progressive thinker for unloading Diggs. He’s not. He’s taking his dead cap lumps.

I’d argue that RBs aren’t a dime a dozen either. How many of us here were clamoring for upgrades to Moss and Singletary because they were simply jags? That position’s biggest issue is shelf life. Whether it’s RB or WR, you need studs in those spots…pro-bowl type guys that teams have to game plan around. Not a bunch of average joes. 

[Shaw66]

13 hours ago, dancing_joker said:

The idea that WRs are a dime a dozen is nonsense. Laughable. Look no further than Allen’s step forward in his development 2019 when we upgraded his WRs.

 

Your post comes off as someone who wants to applaud Beane for being a progressive thinker for unloading Diggs. He’s not. He’s taking his dead cap lumps.

I’d argue that RBs aren’t a dime a dozen either. How many of us here were clamoring for upgrades to Moss and Singletary because they were simply jags? That position’s biggest issue is shelf life. Whether it’s RB or WR, you need studs in those spots…pro-bowl type guys that teams have to game plan around. Not a bunch of average joes. 

I thought this thread was over.   Then this, and I had to respond.  

 

Quote

Look no further than Allen’s step forward in his development 2019 when we upgraded his WRs.

Part of the point that you and others seem to have missed is that 2019 is practically the dark ages in terms of the evolution of offense and defense in the NFL.  The Bills' 2019 offense with that talent would be shut down completely by 2024 defenses.   Longing for the way things used to be is like longing for an egg cream at your local drugstore soda fountain - the memories are nice, but the world has moved on. 

 

Quote

Your post comes off as someone who wants to applaud Beane for being a progressive thinker for unloading Diggs.

Not my intention, and I've said so repeatedly.   I do think that the way the receiver room turned out reflects that McBeane agree some with what I think is an NFL trend, but I've said that the receiver room isn't my idea of an ideal group.   I think it's because I, too, am stuck in thinking about the game the way it used to be.   McBeane have been very good at getting the roster ready for September, and I don't believe that they've just completely failed at receiver.  They do everything with a purpose, and that tells me that they believe they can win with this group.   (Unless Beane has a deal in his pocket.   I continue to wonder whether Beane and Lynch don't have a handshake on Aiyuk or Deebo Samuel - an agreement that after June 1, San Francisco is moving one or the other to Buffalo.   The 49ers' draft loaded up their receiver room, which suggests they might be moving on from one of their studs, and if so, out of the conference makes sense.)

 

Quote

I’d argue that RBs aren’t a dime a dozen either. How many of us here were clamoring for upgrades to Moss and Singletary because they were simply jags?

Have another egg cream.  Of course you were clamoring for a running back, just like plenty of people were clamoring for a receiver this year.   Nobody's winning Super Bowls with stud running backs.   Thurman and Emmit may have been the last great running backs on Super Bowl contending teams.  Not Barkley, not Henry, not Tomlinson, not Zeke Elliott, not Adrian Peterson, not LeSean McCoy.   McCaffrey is the only one in 20 years, and he's a freak.   You can't build a team hoping you're going to find another McCaffrey. 

 

Fans clamoring means exactly nothing.  Remeber last summer.  Fans were clamoring for a linebacker to start.   The Bills already had one, and the fans didn't have a clue.  

[T master]

So you are going to try to tell us that if MJ, Byrd, Kareem, Magic, Russel, came back to the NBA in their prime shape that they wouldn't make a difference ?

 

And if Jerry Rice, Andre Reed, Randy Moss, Megatron, Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Thurman, Sweetness, Emmit, came back to the NFL in their prime shape they wouldn't make a distinct difference ??

 

And other HOF players from other sports came back to play their respective sports in their top shape of their careers that they wouldn't make a difference because the players today are that much better ?

 

And you said there are those that in Tigers prime which i will remind you Tiger has 15 tour wins 4 of those being championships second only to Jack .

 

But you are willing to say there are players today that are on course to beat Tigers wins in the same amount of time, then you must think Lebron is as good as MJ (which is total BS), and Chase is as good as Jerry or any RB is as good as Emmit or Thurman ?

 

We will just have to agree to disagree, because what made all of those players you or i mentioned great & put them in their respective HOF's is their innate drive to be the greatest of all time . Sure there are those that will be good or average but it's no where as easy as you seem to me to be saying that those guys those HOF guys are easy to find .

 

I wanted the Bills to pick up McCafree when he was available i can only imagine his production in the Bills offense Cook is good the CMC is better much better and there will be those who come along in the future that will be HOF like players. I also think 1 big reason why RB's have become less is because of running back by comity . 

 

Use to be they had to get so many carries to get into the rhythm of the game and they can't any more, it's the same as Von saying he takes a while to set up or see how his opponents are playing then he goes a different direction and today with 3 or more different runners they can't see as much so there is less production and or greatness making them expendable .

 

Look at what the Bills RB Moss did when he went to the Colts, he got a lot more carries & he was the player the Bills thought they were getting when they drafted him because he got more carries .

 

 

[Einstein's Dog]

59 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

Part of the point that you and others seem to have missed is that 2019 is practically the dark ages in terms of the evolution of offense and defense in the NFL.  The Bills' 2019 offense with that talent would be shut down completely by 2024 defenses.   Longing for the way things used to be is like longing for an egg cream at your local drugstore soda fountain - the memories are nice, but the world has moved on. 

 

Not my intention, and I've said so repeatedly.   I do think that the way the receiver room turned out reflects that McBeane agree some with what I think is an NFL trend, but I've said that the receiver room isn't my idea of an ideal group.   I think it's because I, too, am stuck in thinking about the game the way it used to be.   McBeane have been very good at getting the roster ready for September, and I don't believe that they've just completely failed at receiver.  They do everything with a purpose, and that tells me that they believe they can win with this group.   (Unless Beane has a deal in his pocket.   I continue to wonder whether Beane and Lynch don't have a handshake on Aiyuk or Deebo Samuel - an agreement that after June 1, San Francisco is moving one or the other to Buffalo.   The 49ers' draft loaded up their receiver room, which suggests they might be moving on from one of their studs, and if so, out of the conference makes sense.)

 

Now you're coming around to my way of thinking, a trade for a WR will reshape the entire WR room.  And it needs it.  But your theory crashes and burns as far as it relating to a Bills strategy - which is fine by me.  I don't want Deebo though, for me it's Aiyuk or Metcalf.

 

Having a quality WR room should be a priority, especially when you have a QB like Josh.  Go easy on RB investment and put the resources into pass catchers.  The Bills offense was rocking when it had 4 decent WRs (the Diggs/Brown/Beas/G Davis days).  Can you imagine that type of talent with the additions of Kincaid and Cook?  That's what Beane should be giving Brady/McD.  That is within the grasp with this one move.  The world has not moved on from the value of having a potent, multiple offense.

[Shaw66]

15 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Now you're coming around to my way of thinking, a trade for a WR will reshape the entire WR room.  And it needs it.  But your theory crashes and burns as far as it relating to a Bills strategy - which is fine by me.  I don't want Deebo though, for me it's Aiyuk or Metcalf.

Aiyuk yes, Metcalf no.  And Deebo is just more Curtis.  

 

I doubt it is happening, but the 49ers have to do something.  Maybe they will wait until after this season, but something is coming. 

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Aiyuk yes, Metcalf no.  And Deebo is just more Curtis.  

 

I doubt it is happening, but the 49ers have to do something.  Maybe they will wait until after this season, but something is coming. 

Why no to Metcalf?  You had listed him as one of the hard to get physical freaks, not a yardage accumulator.  And it would seem physical freaks are transferable whereas yardage accumulators would be riskier.

 

Metcalf seems like he doesn't demand the ball.  But he is someone that demands attention from defenses, and demands attention deep due to his speed, which would open up the underneath for a slew of good pass-catchers, that we happen to now have.  I think he would fit in beautifully.

 

I have noticed that Aiyuk has shut up.  The whining is not a good quality in Bills mafia land, his agent may have put the muzzle on him.

[Shaw66]

17 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Why no to Metcalf?  You had listed him as one of the hard to get physical freaks, not a yardage accumulator.  And it would seem physical freaks are transferable whereas yardage accumulators would be riskier.

 

Metcalf seems like he doesn't demand the ball.  But he is someone that demands attention from defenses, and demands attention deep due to his speed, which would open up the underneath for a slew of good pass-catchers, that we happen to now have.  I think he would fit in beautifully.

 

I have noticed that Aiyuk has shut up.  The whining is not a good quality in Bills mafia land, his agent may have put the muzzle on him.

Oh, I wasn't aware that Aiyuk had been whining.   That gives me less comfort.

 

I don't like Metcalf's attitude, at all.   Whenever I see him, he looks to me like he thinks that because he's the biggest fast receiver and the fastest big receiver that he's God's gift to the world of football.    Running back is about the only position where physical gifts and instincts can make you a winner without dedication to the finer points.  Metcalf has never impressed me as a disciplined route runner or a guy who makes big plays.  Spectacular plays, yes, because his skills are so special, but not big plays.  When the chips are down, I don't think you can rely on him.   Just my impression. 

 

I think, for example, that Diggs was a guy you could count on for the big play, until last season.  I don't think Metcalf ever has been the go-to guy that Diggs was in his earlier seasons in Buffalo.  

[Einstein's Dog]

27 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Oh, I wasn't aware that Aiyuk had been whining.   That gives me less comfort.

 

I don't like Metcalf's attitude, at all.   Whenever I see him, he looks to me like he thinks that because he's the biggest fast receiver and the fastest big receiver that he's God's gift to the world of football.    Running back is about the only position where physical gifts and instincts can make you a winner without dedication to the finer points.  Metcalf has never impressed me as a disciplined route runner or a guy who makes big plays.  Spectacular plays, yes, because his skills are so special, but not big plays.  When the chips are down, I don't think you can rely on him.   Just my impression. 

 

I think, for example, that Diggs was a guy you could count on for the big play, until last season.  I don't think Metcalf ever has been the go-to guy that Diggs was in his earlier seasons in Buffalo.  

Now this is an ironic twist of fate.  I think the new trend the Bills may be trying to incorporate is to avoid having a diva WR that demands x amount of targets a game and have all clutch plays designed for them (goodbye Diggs).  They are trying to get multiple good WRs out there - sure handed, and YAC guys.  Currently the Bills have 3-4 pass catchers that should be at the good category.  Adding one that demands attention deep would make it all click.

 

What Metcalf brings is the need for defensive attention.  This man-child with speed cannot be (and isn't) left one on one.  And while you may not want to rely on him when the chips are down (I don't know his game well enough to refute that) I do know I would want him in the game taking 2 defenders deep to ease the load to create space for Kincaid and/or Shakir.  Whereas MVS/Hollins or whatever other dregs we currently have would have CB4 blanketing them.

 

What I saw out of Metcalf was one of his signature plays.  It went something like Seattle looked to be about to score and then did their stupidly patented pass the ball thing.  it was intercepted and the DB had a clear unabated 99 yards the other way.  Metcalf, from the other side of the field, ran him down.  It was then that I gave my permission for him to be a Bill.  

 

And while I can understand you thinking he thinks he's the biggest fast receiver - well, he pretty much is.  Not really a bad thing to add to the Bills.

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Now this is an ironic twist of fate.  I think the new trend the Bills may be trying to incorporate is to avoid having a diva WR that demands x amount of targets a game and have all clutch plays designed for them (goodbye Diggs).  They are trying to get multiple good WRs out there - sure handed, and YAC guys.  Currently the Bills have 3-4 pass catchers that should be at the good category.  Adding one that demands attention deep would make it all click.

 

What Metcalf brings is the need for defensive attention.  This man-child with speed cannot be (and isn't) left one on one.  And while you may not want to rely on him when the chips are down (I don't know his game well enough to refute that) I do know I would want him in the game taking 2 defenders deep to ease the load to create space for Kincaid and/or Shakir.  Whereas MVS/Hollins or whatever other dregs we currently have would have CB4 blanketing them.

 

What I saw out of Metcalf was one of his signature plays.  It went something like Seattle looked to be about to score and then did their stupidly patented pass the ball thing.  it was intercepted and the DB had a clear unabated 99 yards the other way.  Metcalf, from the other side of the field, ran him down.  It was then that I gave my permission for him to be a Bill.  

 

And while I can understand you thinking he thinks he's the biggest fast receiver - well, he pretty much is.  Not really a bad thing to add to the Bills.

All of this is why I really hope Claypool shows something and makes the team.  He does, or should I say is capable of doing, all of that stuff and he's already signed and on the roster.

[Shaw66]

32 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Now this is an ironic twist of fate.  I think the new trend the Bills may be trying to incorporate is to avoid having a diva WR that demands x amount of targets a game and have all clutch plays designed for them (goodbye Diggs).  They are trying to get multiple good WRs out there - sure handed, and YAC guys.  Currently the Bills have 3-4 pass catchers that should be at the good category.  Adding one that demands attention deep would make it all click.

 

What Metcalf brings is the need for defensive attention.  This man-child with speed cannot be (and isn't) left one on one.  And while you may not want to rely on him when the chips are down (I don't know his game well enough to refute that) I do know I would want him in the game taking 2 defenders deep to ease the load to create space for Kincaid and/or Shakir.  Whereas MVS/Hollins or whatever other dregs we currently have would have CB4 blanketing them.

 

What I saw out of Metcalf was one of his signature plays.  It went something like Seattle looked to be about to score and then did their stupidly patented pass the ball thing.  it was intercepted and the DB had a clear unabated 99 yards the other way.  Metcalf, from the other side of the field, ran him down.  It was then that I gave my permission for him to be a Bill.  

 

And while I can understand you thinking he thinks he's the biggest fast receiver - well, he pretty much is.  Not really a bad thing to add to the Bills.

That play was amazing. Maybe i underestimate the guy.

[Einstein's Dog]

19 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That play was amazing. Maybe i underestimate the guy.

It's hard to get a good WR who isn't a diva.  I thought about my earlier comment and I don't think it is the route the Bills are trying to go ( the non-diva route).  I just think they just want another good top tier WR to add to the mix.  If they wanted non-divas they would have drafted two.

 

There's risk in adding a WR but I hope they are going to take it.  Aiyuk made the rumor mill by going the tweet circuit and threatening to hold out.  Pretty clear he wants to be paid.  It has a lot of the Diggs kind of back story feel to it.  Metcalf can give off self centered vibes but I haven't heard of anything else.  Adding either of these two would be huge IMO.  

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

   (Unless Beane has a deal in his pocket.   I continue to wonder whether Beane and Lynch don't have a handshake on Aiyuk or Deebo Samuel - an agreement that after June 1, San Francisco is moving one or the other to Buffalo.   The 49ers' draft loaded up their receiver room, which suggests they might be moving on from one of their studs, and if so, out of the conference makes sense.)

Just so I’m clear, if Beane DOES make a trade for a big name WR, does that mean you recant your OP and WR’s aren’t dime a dozen and they don’t have a secret strategy to turn 3 WR4’s and a rookie into an elite offensive group?

[Craig Oi]

https://sports.yahoo.com/receiver-market-way-running-back-161213948.html....Just for those who scoffed at the main idea

[PonyBoy]

15 minutes ago, Craig Oi said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/receiver-market-way-running-back-161213948.html....Just for those who scoffed at the main idea

 

So you're saying maybe Beane is ahead of the curve? 

I like it! 

Other than the Moss years, Tom Brady won with route runners, ball catchers & tough RB's.

Athletic, opportunistic defenses.

What's old is new again hopefully. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Craig Oi said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/receiver-market-way-running-back-161213948.html....Just for those who scoffed at the main idea

I will continue to scoff.

 

Multiple receivers have gotten paid this offseason. Multiple others are still waiting.

Last month, 35 more were drafted — including nine in the first 34 selections.

As more and more competent receivers enter the NFL via the low-cost rookie wage scale, it's fair to wonder if/when more and more teams will decline to pay a receiver and look for a replacement instead in the draft.

 

First of all, huh?

 

By this logic, QB's are going the way of running back. After all, 6 went in the top 12.

 

Hell, 36 CB's were drafted this year. Is CB going the way of the running back?

 

Two years ago, three teams did it. The Titans traded A.J. Brown, the Packers traded receiver Davante Adams, the Chiefs traded Tyreek Hill. (Tennessee used the first-round pick it got for Brown on his replacement, Treylon Burks. The Packers opted for quantity, drafting Christian Watson, Romeo Doubs, and Samari Toure. And the Chiefs went with a low-cost committee approach that has helped deliver every Lombardi Trophy awarded since Hill was traded.)

 

Ah, yes. We all know how well the Titans' trading of AJ Brown has worked out for them.

 

Packers trading Davante of course was the last straw to losing their HoF QB.

 

And the Chiefs' decision worked I guess, but who knows if they don't win 2 SB's with Hill?

 

The reason why this premise is so silly is because there's an apparent lack of understanding of WHY the running back market is the way it is:

 

#1 - Less elite athletes are running backs now than ever before because its the crappiest skill position to play (this is not happening to WR's, its the opposite)

#2 - Because less elite athletes are running backs, the delta between a solid RB and a great RB has never been smaller (this is not happening to WR's, its the opposite)

#3 - The shelf life for an RB has never been lower, which makes them poor DRAFT investments (this is not happening to WR's, its the opposite)

 

Seriously. This is like Titans fans saying, "Maybe our team is on to something investing garbage at the QB position, they aren't paying franchise QB money, they are ahead of the curve!"

 

Your favorite teams' crappy decisions aren't some super secret masterful strategy. They are just crappy decisions.

[SoCal Deek]

I find this discussion interesting, but only to a point. Unless Beane has another card up his sleeve it appears we’re all about to find out if this strategy works. The Bills jettisoned their top two WRs in favor of cheaper, less experienced alternatives. Does having a franchise quarterback make up for the loss? Again, we’re going to know in just a few months. Somebody please remember to resurrect this thread in October. 

[ColoradoBills]

On 5/20/2024 at 6:23 PM, FireChans said:

Just so I’m clear, if Beane DOES make a trade for a big name WR, does that mean you recant your OP and WR’s aren’t dime a dozen and they don’t have a secret strategy to turn 3 WR4’s and a rookie into an elite offensive group?

 

He is not trading for Metcalf or Aiyuk.  Not happening.

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

He is not trading for Metcalf or Aiyuk.  Not happening.

The OP was the person I was responding to who certainly seems to think there’s at least a remote possibility

[GunnerBill]

On 5/20/2024 at 6:59 PM, Shaw66 said:

 I do think that the way the receiver room turned out reflects that McBeane agree some with what I think is an NFL trend, but I've said that the receiver room isn't my idea of an ideal group.   I think it's because I, too, am stuck in thinking about the game the way it used to be.   McBeane have been very good at getting the roster ready for September, and I don't believe that they've just completely failed at receiver.  They do everything with a purpose, and that tells me that they believe they can win with this group. 

 

I agree they do everything with a purpose but their purpose is not always about the immediate short term. Unless you think in 2018 Beane put together the worst collection of skill position players and offensive linemen the Bills have had this century to support his rookie QB because he thought that was a good idea? He didn't. He thought taking on all the dead cap of the guys they had moved on from - Sammy, Darby, Dareus, Glenn, Tyrod etc - in one hit was a good idea. The offensive talent reflected the reality that he had less to spend as a result. 

 

That is what is happening here IMO. Beane's purpose is to do a mini-reset of the roster in 2024 to transition from the first Allen era team to Allen era 2.0. He has built the best WR room he thinks he can in that context. It doesn't mean they aren't trying to win in 2024 but their #1 objective in their roster decisions this spring was to begin that reset. 

[Figster]

7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I find this discussion interesting, but only to a point. Unless Beane has another card up his sleeve it appears we’re all about to find out if this strategy works. The Bills jettisoned their top two WRs in favor of cheaper, less experienced alternatives. Does having a franchise quarterback make up for the loss? Again, we’re going to know in just a few months. Somebody please remember to resurrect this thread in October. 

Beane already addressed weapons around Allen with Kincaid, Cook and now Coleman. The strategy is to run the football more and throw to big, strong targets that can also run block well.

 

Complimentary football  baby,

 

makes McD a happy clapper ;  )