Harrison Butker…oy vey…what a commencement “speech”

[Jauronimo]

21 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

What is truly fascinating is that the vast majority (80%) of newly minted trans people are from the United States. It's almost as if the media/culture proliferates the desire.

 

Of course, we are just now starting to see the pendulum swing the other way, with many of these children realizing later in life that they were never trans. Dr. Michael Irwig, a board certified endocrinologist and Harvard faculty member predicted this, stating:

“There is reason to believe that the numbers of detransitioners may increase. It is quite possible that low reported rates of detransition and regret in previous populations will no longer apply to current populations,”

Even outspoken trans advocates, such as trans-psychologist Erica Anderson (who herself is trans), has begun to postulate the reason, stating:

“A fair number of kids are getting into it because it’s trendy... I think in our haste to be supportive, we’re missing that element. I have these private thoughts: ‘This has gone too far. It’s going to get worse. I don’t want any part of it,"

Here is a good article on that:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/opinion/transgender-children-gender-dysphoria.html

I am guessing its easier to be "minted" as trans in the United States than it is in say Iran. Lots of bureaucracy and red tape over there.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea I don't buy that. Sorry. Unfortunately we live in an era of extremism and gay people are still being persecuted and indeed killed in many parts of our world by people with similar beliefs. I don't accept that sin exists. Or that it is deadly. Or that there is any biblical justification for him saying pride represents a deadly sin. Or that he needed to refer to it in that manner. He's an idiot. I don't think he should be thrown out of the league or anything. But I don't think there is a defence of his comments. 

Alright. You are very sure of your metaphysical conclusions. I am doubtful you have an air-tight argument for atheism. There is no metaphysics that doesn't depend on some radical belief. Proof doesn't reach down to ultimacy, though I recognize dialectic isn't going to convince you, nor do I have any interest in attempting to do so. Sin is a religious concept dependent on an understanding of well-being and perfection with theological roots. Naturally, if you deny God, the holy will be a surd concept, and apart from that, sin is meaningless. 

 

In the end, reality is not a product of our willing or subjective fantasy, nor can anyone's judgment replace our unique responsibilities to pursue truth to the best of our capacities. At the same time, words have specific meaning, even shades of meaning. Part of responsible communication is noting what they mean in the context of a particular community, or even idiosyncratic usage by an individual. Traditionally, pride is "sinful" because it results in a habit of thinking and acting that lacks receptivity towards the fullness of Being, whether that be in nature or the divine. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Alright. You are very sure of your metaphysical conclusions. I am doubtful you have an air-tight argument for atheism. There is no metaphysics that doesn't depend on some radical belief. Proof doesn't reach down to ultimacy, though I recognize dialectic isn't going to convince you, nor do I have any interest in attempting to do so. Sin is a religious concept dependent on an understanding of well-being and perfection with theological roots. Naturally, if you deny God, the holy will be a surd concept, and apart from that, sin is meaningless. 

 

In the end, reality is not a product of our willing or subjective fantasy, nor can anyone's judgment replace our unique responsibilities to pursue truth to the best of our capacities. At the same time, words have specific meaning, even shades of meaning. Part of responsible communication is noting what they mean in the context of a particular community, or even idiosyncratic usage by an individual. Traditionally, pride is "sinful" because it results in a habit of thinking and acting that lacks receptivity towards the fullness of Being, whether that be in nature or the divine. 

 

 

Nor am I trying to convince you. What I am saying is the biblical justification for his statement is at best arguable.

[Einstein]

17 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I am guessing its easier to be "minted" as trans in the United States than it is in say Iran. Lots of bureaucracy and red tape over there.

Certainly. However, there are many non-Iran (or similar) nations in this world. Canada, UK, Norway, Switzerland, Japan, Finland, Denmark, Australia, France, Spain, etc all rank higher than the USA on the LDI (liberal democracy index).

These nations have a combined population greater than the United States yet only account for 17%-ish of the World's new trans population, while the USA accounts for over 80%, with a smaller combined population. That is incredible.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Nor am I trying to convince you. What I am saying is the biblical justification for his statement is at best arguable.

Yes, I was not really returning to his particular statements. I was attempting to explain the very traditional notion of pride as one of the seven deadly sins.

 

 

[muppy]

Greetings

 

Reading you IQ heavyweights discourse on this subject is fascinating.  I was basically unchurched until I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and savior at age 40

 

Oh Yes I have a faith testimony. But that is not what this thread is about. So if anyone is interested I will reply in PM

 

anyway to bottom line is MY belief is Jesus is the way the truth and the Life. I am never undecided where my ultimate salvation is concerned.  I trust I am heaven bound not on my efforts or goodness but on HIS.

 

I had ugly discourse with a Roman Catholic once and I refuse to do it again. But you see arrogance and IM RIGHT exists within Christianity also.

 

I left a Lutheran church to a black southern gospel and Both of those have dogma I don't agree with. The crux of ALL CHRISTIAN faith is Jesus the Christ.

 

I'll hang my hat on HIM the rest of the arguments and denominational differences Is above my pay grade to decide.

 

*shrugs* good talk

 

m

[boyst]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

I am guessing its easier to be "minted" as trans in the United States than it is in say Iran. Lots of bureaucracy and red tape over there.

Just the same, the US free markets and business of the trans folks is booming. Why wouldn't some quack doctor and folks embrace what could be a brilliant edge on the market of medications?

 

I mean, the medical community has never been wrong, experts have never lied to us, mass organized movements of a society have never had a bad outcome, and most importantly our medical officials have always been honest and had our best interests at heart.

 

Most of the trans movement is nothing more than some ***** for kids like goth was in the 90's and 00's, except now parents get into it and claim their social status and special Munchausen by proxy cards of virtue!

[Bill from NYC]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

But I don't think there is a defence of his comments. 

I defend his right to say what he thinks as an invited guest at a parochial school. Is there something wrong with that?

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I defend his right to say what he thinks as an invited guest at a parochial school. Is there something wrong with that?

 

I defend his right to say it too. But I can do that and still object totally to what he said. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I defend his right to say it too. But I can do that and still object totally to what he said. 

As do I.  But that seems to be a hard concept for some to grasp.

[Bill from NYC]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I defend his right to say it too. But I can do that and still object totally to what he said. 

Of course GB, and that is my point!

[Beck Water]

On 5/17/2024 at 7:53 PM, oldmanfan said:

I would say an N of 2 isn’t much.  Again, he can say what he wants and some may agree.  From the reaction it seems many don’t including the Order of sisters who sponsor the school, I believe.

 

No one is saying balancing career and family is easy.  What the women I have talked to about it object to is the idea that the only real identity women have are as wives and mothers.  
 

Tell you what really amazed me is his clarification where he said he’d like to go back to a time where women cared more about babies than thoughts.  That he is intimating that women should not have thoughts is simply absurd no matter your religious persuasion.

Yet here you are on social media espousing yours.

 

I think it's already been pointed out that the "time when women had more babies than thoughts" originated as satire, and not from Butker.

 

However, as was also pointed out in another post, there are some "tea leaves" indicating that Butker may be an Opus Dei supernumerary or cooperator.  And the founder of Opus Dei, St. Josemaría Escrivá, did write that "Women needn’t be scholars—it’s enough for them to be prudent." 

Good satire is effective because it's an exaggeration of the plausible

 

Also, it's one thing for women who are married or about to be married, to discuss with their partners if they together want children (for traditional Catholics, that's pretty well mandated), and how they want to handle the household finances and raising the children

 

It's another thing to tell young women who are sitting in an auditorium about to be awarded degrees they have worked towards for 4 long years, that "the majority of them" should be more excited about their marriage and the children they will bear".

EDIT:  OMG, I missed it in my first read-through of his transcript- HE ACTUALLY QUOTES ESCRIVA in his speech "St. Josemaría Escrivá states that priests are ordained to serve, and should not yield to temptation to imitate laypeople, but to be priests through and through......" (this is in the part where he's saying Catholicism has always been counter-cultural when for literally more than a thousand years, Catholicism WAS the predominant driver of culture for Western Europe, then goes on to harshly criticize parish priests, parishes, and bishoprics.)  Oh yeah, he's 100% in Opus Dei or wants to be.

 

For those who don't know what is Opus Dei

[Beck Water]

8 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I defend his right to say what he thinks as an invited guest at a parochial school. Is there something wrong with that?

 

Bill, you and I think some others keep referring to Benedictine College as a "parochial school".

 

Why?  It is literally not a parochial school.

 

I agree with defending his right to speak his mind, and that is, after all, what he was invited to do.  But freedom of speech has never meant freedom from consequences arising from that speech, from editorials and social media posts objecting to it, to extra income from jersey sales (I think the players get a %?), to people who want him zapped out of the league.

 

I don't agree with the latter, but it happened with Colin Kaepernick and I have an inkling that some of the same people who wanted Kaepernick kicked to the curb permanently are the same ones objecting to anyone wanting likewise for Butker.  

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

I am guessing its easier to be "minted" as trans in the United States than it is in say Iran. Lots of bureaucracy and red tape over there.

 

I had no idea one could "come out" as trans or have gender-affirming therapy in Iran.  It is still a very conservative theocracy. 

I googled and officially the government does recognize transgender individuals who have undergone sex reassignment surgery, but according to my info, it's officially considered a mental disorder and there are no laws protecting trans people from discrimination or hate crimes.  As a result, assault, exclusion from education and jobs are rife.  Source:  Iranian-born and educated woman I used to work with.

[T&C]

39 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I had no idea one could "come out" as trans or have gender-affirming therapy in Iran.  It is still a very conservative theocracy. 

I googled and officially the government does recognize transgender individuals who have undergone sex reassignment surgery, but according to my info, it's officially considered a mental disorder and there are no laws protecting trans people from discrimination or hate crimes.  As a result, assault, exclusion from education and jobs are rife.  Source:  Iranian-born and educated woman I used to work with.

They weren't wrong, and here in the USA it's a money grab. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

 

[Beck Water]

14 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

One thing that was very interesting to me was the NFL's need to come out with a (puzzling) response for this.

 

First off, is there EVER a time when a player speaks on behalf of the NFL? Or for that matter, even on behalf of their respective teams? I don’t think so, although maybe somebody can correct me. Both the NFL and all teams have PR departments that speak for them. My belief is that players ALWAYS  speak just for themselves.

 

Secondly, the NFL made a point to say that they are "inclusive" to everybody. My reading of Butker's speech sees nothing that says certain people shouldn't be NFL fans, or NFL refs, or NFL/team employees. The main complaint was that he wants women to be "barefoot and pregnant, and in the kitchen." I'm pretty sure that even if the latter accusation was true (it's not), he'd still want them to be NFL fans, and watch games on Sundays, Mondays, Thursday, Saturdays, and Christmas, or buy NFL gear. LOL  Also, you can opine that transgenderism is wrong and is a mental illness, but that doesn’t mean you dislike those folks, or that you don't want them to be fans.

 

Finally, the biggest criticism of the NFL was that were very quick to respond to this while they stay silent on many other  cases where their players are doing things FAR WORSE than what Butker did. IMO, that criticism is justly deserved.

 

I think there are times when a player is assumed to speak for a team - which is why the NFL fines players and coaches who openly criticize officiating or NFL policy.

 

There are certainly times when players are asked to do PSAs or publicity appearances for both teams and for the NFL itself, at which times they are assumed to speak for the NFL and the NFL would rightly be held to have "skin in the game" about what they said.

 

It's a pretty good distortion of what Butker said to frame it as "barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen", nor do I think the people who object are framing it that way (I'm certainly not).  

 

What Butker actually said was not limited to transgender.  He referred to "dangerous gender ideologies", true, but he also talked about the "deadly sin sort of pride that has an entire month dedicated to it", a pretty clear reference to PRIDE month which is about LGBTQ, not simply T.  If you think someone is living their life according to "dangerous ideologies" or "deadly sin", is it unreasonable to question whether you believe these people should have a right to live their lives in peace and safety in our communities?

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

[iccrewman112]

On 5/15/2024 at 9:41 AM, Logic said:

4.) It seems somewhat bizarre to tell a bunch of women who are about to graduate from college that they ought to stick to the kitchen instead.

maybe he thought he was speaking at the graduation for a culinary school!?!?