hondo in seattle Posted May 17 Posted May 17 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: Stefon Diggs was a quasi-legit starter? Man the homer's have no shame. I was referring to after we jettisoned Diggs and Davis. Quote
hondo in seattle Posted May 17 Posted May 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Craig Oi said: I look at it as a good signing. Expecting Coleman out of the gate to play the X and w/ no one else on the roster capable was a tough ask. MVS helps out here and provides that field stretching factor. That allows for more mix and matching at the Y&Z. Claypool while a dark horse "if he can ever..." would be a huge bonus. Hamler if he can stay healthy...etc. Seems to me Brady hand picked Samuel and Shakir looks primed for a larger role. Then we get to factor in the TE's and RB's. Kincaid being a yr along in his development(TE's always taking longer), would really love to see him hit the seams more this year(plenty of yards to be had there...). I wanted to double dip at WR and wanted Franklin too, then Walker went off the board and while I would have been happier w/ Rice in the 7th. Love the add of Davis w/ our 4th , tough back should make it through the season and extend both his and Cooks season. Only other place to get Franklin/Walker would have been the 3rd but Carter sounds/looks like a player to me and we needed a young DT. Things are not as bleak as many think, tweaks will come just like today w/ Delaney over Cepheus, it's not even June!!! Go Bills!!! Not as bleak as people think... but not as sunny as we'd hope. I remember when Kelly's targets included three guys destined for the Hall of Fame: Loften, Reed, Thomas. The guys we have now don't even qualify for Little House on the Prairie. But I keep hoping that (1) Brady shows us that he knows how to scheme guys open, and (2) a couple of these guys step up and surprise their critics. I do think there's some potential. Edited May 17 by hondo in seattle 1 Quote
Craig Oi Posted May 17 Posted May 17 7 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: Not as bleak as people think... but not as sunny as we'd hope. There are a lots of if's...But some seem to be better bets then others...Hits on 50%, well now we are cookin'. If he ever REALLY need safety help, break glass Hyde will play...I'm betting 1 longshot/darkhorse WR pans out,...sh!t, Foster even looked good for a moment. I like this kid Coleman, I didn't want him at 1st but NOW...I can see why he was who they wanted. Dude's 20...20! I had visions of a "double dip", mine was Franklin & Polk...But I like our draft much better today .Still would have liked Rice in the 7th...If Hyde is the only one we have to pull off the couch this year, I think things will be bright! 1 Quote
Beck Water Posted May 17 Posted May 17 2 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said: I do think we need to tap the breaks a little, this is a guy who had a 7% drop rate and 54% catch rate last year. Tap the brakes is fine for sure. Keep in mind this is a guy who had 42 targets and 3 drops last season - with 15 yd/target average meaning he was the deep target. Just as with Gabe Davis, the low catch % is partly a function of throw-aways over his head and uncatchable balls. As long as his feet work and he gets downfield fast he could have a role (so could Claypool, for that matter) 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Stefon Diggs was a quasi-legit starter? Man the homer's have no shame. I could be mistaken, but I think he might have his timeline slightly fuzzy and be referring to Shakir, not remembering that the timeline went: Davis walks in FA Curtis Samuel signed Diggs traded 2 Quote
hondo in seattle Posted May 17 Posted May 17 32 minutes ago, Beck Water said: Tap the brakes is fine for sure. Keep in mind this is a guy who had 42 targets and 3 drops last season - with 15 yd/target average meaning he was the deep target. Just as with Gabe Davis, the low catch % is partly a function of throw-aways over his head and uncatchable balls. As long as his feet work and he gets downfield fast he could have a role (so could Claypool, for that matter) I could be mistaken, but I think he might have his timeline slightly fuzzy and be referring to Shakir, not remembering that the timeline went: Davis walks in FA Curtis Samuel signed Diggs traded You are correct, sir. I recalled events as simple housecleaning with Davis and Diggs departing followed by a slow, steady, humble rebuild. I was wrong. But my general idea still holds. At one point our WR room consisted of something like Shakir, Samuel, Shorter and Hollins. I'm happy that MVS, and some others, were added to the group, considering where we started. 3 Quote
NeverOutNick Posted May 17 Posted May 17 1 hour ago, LLCoolCy said: Josh sealing the deal. I love Josh Allen. My favorite bill since Fred Jackson. I know this will be an unpopular pov but man McD and Beane don't deserve Josh. He's got to pimp himself out for WR scraps lol 1 Quote
Rocky Landing Posted May 17 Posted May 17 Before this week, I really didn't know a lot about Marquez Valdes-Scantling. So, I decided to get in little tape on this guy, and I went to the all-22 of weeks 7, 12, and 13 of the ’23 season (Chargers, Packers, and Bills, respectively) because those were the games that MVS had the most targets (mostly focused on week 7). And I gotta say… he looked rather pedestrian. But it wasn’t all bad news (at least from my eye. I'll admit, I’m not the most knowledgeable fan on this site— but I’m not the least, either…) Here’s what I saw: The Cons: The drops are a real issue. I was assuming, as some others on here were, that his high drop rate was a function of his deeper routes, and sure… not all drops are created equal. But, that really didn't seem to be the case. His drops were reminiscent of the drops that Isaiah McKenzie used to make (a Bills player whom I loved, btw). Bone-headed stuff. This is easily the biggest knock on the guy, IMO. He does not have reliable hands. His burst off the line is slow, and he does not have quick acceleration. Once he gets going, he can build up some speed— not uncommon for a big guy— but it makes separation in shorter routes an issue. He does not cut well, even for someone his size. Obviously, that makes separation an issue, as well. The Good: He knows how to use his big body. He seemed utterly un-phased by press man, lack of burst notwithstanding. He can brush off a bump at the LOS with ease. He’s a very, very good blocker. In fact, one of the primary ways the Chefs seemed to use him was to stretch the field ahead of Kelce, and then block for him to get Kelce those YACs. Through much of those games, with several of Kielce’s receptions, #11 was about 5-7 yards ahead of him, drawing coverage. IMO, if he makes the 53, this will be the biggest reason. He knows how to run a fade. It’s the strength of his game. And that works well for the Bills, since Josh Allen knows how to throw one. He knows how to extend a play. That’s important if Mahomes is your QB. And, obviously, it’s important if Josh Allen is your QB. One other little bonus I got from watching the all-22 from week seven, was that Will Clapp was the starting center for the Chargers, and I focused on him, as well. I had more or less assumed he was JAG… but now I’m not so sure. He seemed like a competent, well rounded center in both pass pro, and the run. In the run game, he seemed to follow his assignments well— drew to the side the play called for, and finished his push to the end. In pass pro, he held his own all game. One thing I really liked was that when a gap opened up, he would maintain his block, but extend an arm out towards the gap, and a couple times took on a double block— and he did it pretty well. But even when the double block wasn’t there, he was able to narrow the gap that had opened, and at least slow the pass rush. I thought he looked pretty decent— at least in what I saw of him. Don’t sleep on this guy. He could be our next center. And I’ll admit— I don’t have a ton of faith in David Edwards as a LG. Obviously, he’s not a better option over Connor McGovern, or he’d have had that role last season. And I have no idea how McGovern will fare at center. GO BILLS! 3 1 3 Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted May 17 Posted May 17 1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said: I was referring to after we jettisoned Diggs and Davis. They "started the offseason" with a WR1 who had just produced 1183 yards on 107 catches and 8 TD's. Samuel, MVS and Claypool didn't even come close to producing those numbers combined. The strategy the Bills have taken is to hope for unlikely results. They did it to a lesser extent with Harty and Sherfield last offseason. And predictably failed. You are welcome to be satisfied with a stick in the eye or a kick in the nuts.......whatever floats you.........but don't try to tell us that p!ss is rain.........just admit you enjoy it because it's sterile and you like the taste. 1 1 1 Quote
Beck Water Posted May 17 Posted May 17 39 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: They "started the offseason" with a WR1 who had just produced 1183 yards on 107 catches and 8 TD's. Samuel, MVS and Claypool didn't even come close to producing those numbers combined. The strategy the Bills have taken is to hope for unlikely results. They did it to a lesser extent with Harty and Sherfield last offseason. And predictably failed. You are welcome to be satisfied with a stick in the eye or a kick in the nuts.......whatever floats you.........but don't try to tell us that p!ss is rain.........just admit you enjoy it because it's sterile and you like the taste. Piss isn't sterile. #FACTS I was totally gobsmacked when we traded Stefon Diggs. I expect him to be super-motivated to rehab and train his ass off this off season and lay down some good numbers for the Texans instead of visiting Paris for Fashion Week and attending Coachella during OTAs as he did in the 2023 off season. I *think* the WR is better for 2024 than it was for Allen's rookie season but when I walk through it point by point, I wind up wondering if it's wishful thinking: Kelvin Benjamin - 2014 Panthers 1st round pick with 1000+ and 900+ seasons along with two torn ACLs in his medical history and a torn meniscus the previous year. Well-paid and highly Demotivated. Zay Jones - 2017 2nd round pick who had meagre yardage and major hands issues his rookie year but we hoped a torn labrum was responsible and all better now. Jeremy Kerley - 8 year, 5 team journeyman whose best seasons were 827 and 667 yds Andre' Holmes - 8 year, 4 team mostly ST journeyman, best season 693 yards Robert Foster - fast UDFA with limited college play who needed to be cut and signed to the PS to get him to take it seriously Isaiah McKenzie - fast gadget guy who couldn't run routes at the time, claimed off waivers from Denver mid-season It really bothers me that I write the above and feel the need to second guess whether we're really better at this point. 1 2 Quote
dgrochester55 Posted May 17 Posted May 17 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Beck Water said: Piss isn't sterile. #FACTS I was totally gobsmacked when we traded Stefon Diggs. I expect him to be super-motivated to rehab and train his ass off this off season and lay down some good numbers for the Texans instead of visiting Paris for Fashion Week and attending Coachella during OTAs as he did in the 2023 off season. I *think* the WR is better for 2024 than it was for Allen's rookie season but when I walk through it point by point, I wind up wondering if it's wishful thinking: Kelvin Benjamin - 2014 Panthers 1st round pick with 1000+ and 900+ seasons along with two torn ACLs in his medical history and a torn meniscus the previous year. Well-paid and highly Demotivated. Zay Jones - 2017 2nd round pick who had meagre yardage and major hands issues his rookie year but we hoped a torn labrum was responsible and all better now. Jeremy Kerley - 8 year, 5 team journeyman whose best seasons were 827 and 667 yds Andre' Holmes - 8 year, 4 team mostly ST journeyman, best season 693 yards Robert Foster - fast UDFA with limited college play who needed to be cut and signed to the PS to get him to take it seriously Isaiah McKenzie - fast gadget guy who couldn't run routes at the time, claimed off waivers from Denver mid-season It really bothers me that I write the above and feel the need to second guess whether we're really better at this point. This group is much better, primarily because nobody in the 2018 WR room was productive enough to even be a #4 for any other team. They were abyssmal. We have no clear #1 in 2024, but I am certain that any of Shakir, Samuel, Coleman and maybe even MVS as they are today could have been the clear #1 option if they were in the 2018 group. In addition, Allen has Kincaid and Knox at TE instead of Charles Clay and Jason Croom. A more fair comparison would be to the 2019 WR Group of Beasley, Brown, McKenzie, Roberts, Knox and Kroft. Edited May 17 by dgrochester55 4 Quote
hondo in seattle Posted May 17 Posted May 17 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: They "started the offseason" with a WR1 who had just produced 1183 yards on 107 catches and 8 TD's. Samuel, MVS and Claypool didn't even come close to producing those numbers combined. The strategy the Bills have taken is to hope for unlikely results. They did it to a lesser extent with Harty and Sherfield last offseason. And predictably failed. You are welcome to be satisfied with a stick in the eye or a kick in the nuts.......whatever floats you.........but don't try to tell us that p!ss is rain.........just admit you enjoy it because it's sterile and you like the taste. I'm not sure we're all that far apart. This is how I saw it a few days ago and how I still see it today. On 5/13/2024 at 5:19 PM, hondo in seattle said: It almost seems like Beane is trying to fix the WR room with numbers. Get a bunch of flawed but affordable guys with potential upside and see who's good enough to stick. Beane got the Bills into cap trouble and he had to get us out. That meant Diggs had to go. And the departures of Diggs and Davis left the cupboard pretty bare without a lot of money to shop with. When you don't have a lot of money, you shop at the Dollar Store. But Beane's tried to go out and get guys with potential upside. Claypool, for example, was once a productive wideout. MVS has speed and has put together a couple of okay years. While it's Beane's fault that we're in this situation I'm not complaining about his efforts to now manage it the best he can without mortgaging the future. If you don't agree, that's fine. I'm not sure what value you add when you make remarks about me liking to get kicked in the nuts and drink piss. It's not an intelligent argument nor is it a kind or respectful thing to say. Luck and circumstance have sh*t on us Bills fans enough. It puzzles me that we'd want to add to that by sh*tting on each other. Quote
Beck Water Posted May 17 Posted May 17 19 minutes ago, dgrochester55 said: This group is much better, primarily because nobody in the 2018 WR room was productive enough to even be a #4 for any other team. They were abyssmal. We have no clear #1 in 2024, but I am certain that any of Shakir, Samuel, Coleman and maybe even MVS as they are today could have been the clear #1 option if they were in the 2018 group. In addition, Allen has Kincaid and Knox at TE instead of Charles Clay and Jason Croom. A more fair comparison would be to the 2019 WR Group of Beasley, Brown, McKenzie, Roberts, Knox and Kroft. You know, I really want to believe this. I honestly do. Benjamin was, in fact, a #1 WR in Carolina for 2 seasons, sandwiching a year on IR. And while it wasn't as good, projecting out his first 8 games he might well have finished as their #1 in 2017 with the Ghost of Cam Newton throwing to him. Kerley was actually leading SF in receptions and receiving yards in 2016 with Kaepernick throwing to him. He was suspended then cut half the 2017 season with the Jets and Josh McCowan, but certainly could have called him #3. I think it's fair to say in hindsight, he had nothing left and got suspended for PEDs because he was trying to flog his body through a season. It lasted 1 game here. You may be right. The Curtis Samuel signing was reminiscent of Beasley to me - steady guy who has produced consistently from the slot. I'm not sure who is analogous to Brown, though? 18 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: Beane got the Bills into cap trouble and he had to get us out. That meant Diggs had to go. And the departures of Diggs and Davis left the cupboard pretty bare without a lot of money to shop with. When you don't have a lot of money, you shop at the Dollar Store. But Beane's tried to go out and get guys with potential upside. Claypool, for example, was once a productive wideout. MVS has speed and has put together a couple of okay years. While it's Beane's fault that we're in this situation I'm not complaining about his efforts to now manage it the best he can without mortgaging the future. The thing is, Diggs did NOT have to go to "get us out" of cap trouble. It would have cost us less cap this year, and at least allowed us to shop at Price Cutter or Aldi. 1 Quote
oldmanfan Posted May 17 Posted May 17 4 hours ago, Beck Water said: You know, I really want to believe this. I honestly do. Benjamin was, in fact, a #1 WR in Carolina for 2 seasons, sandwiching a year on IR. And while it wasn't as good, projecting out his first 8 games he might well have finished as their #1 in 2017 with the Ghost of Cam Newton throwing to him. Kerley was actually leading SF in receptions and receiving yards in 2016 with Kaepernick throwing to him. He was suspended then cut half the 2017 season with the Jets and Josh McCowan, but certainly could have called him #3. I think it's fair to say in hindsight, he had nothing left and got suspended for PEDs because he was trying to flog his body through a season. It lasted 1 game here. You may be right. The Curtis Samuel signing was reminiscent of Beasley to me - steady guy who has produced consistently from the slot. I'm not sure who is analogous to Brown, though? The thing is, Diggs did NOT have to go to "get us out" of cap trouble. It would have cost us less cap this year, and at least allowed us to shop at Price Cutter or Aldi. I have absolutely no evidence to support this, but I’m thinking Josh was sick of dealing with Diggs and wanted him gone. 1 1 Quote
BADOLBILZ Posted May 17 Posted May 17 7 hours ago, dgrochester55 said: This group is much better, primarily because nobody in the 2018 WR room was productive enough to even be a #4 for any other team. They were abyssmal. We have no clear #1 in 2024, but I am certain that any of Shakir, Samuel, Coleman and maybe even MVS as they are today could have been the clear #1 option if they were in the 2018 group. In addition, Allen has Kincaid and Knox at TE instead of Charles Clay and Jason Croom. A more fair comparison would be to the 2019 WR Group of Beasley, Brown, McKenzie, Roberts, Knox and Kroft. The Bills haven't started a season without a WR that had accumulated at least 900 yards(a low bar) in any NFL season since 1987. Right now, that's the case unless they trade for someone who's proven they can be a WR1 or a good WR2. It's just another unnecessary leap of faith at the position.........same as the past 2 offseasons(which ultimately failed the team) but a considerably larger leap this time. 1 2 1 Quote
GunnerBill Posted May 17 Posted May 17 2 hours ago, oldmanfan said: I have absolutely no evidence to support this, but I’m thinking Josh was sick of dealing with Diggs and wanted him gone. Josh and Diggs fell out over a year before he played is last game here. There was definitely a point of "gone as far as this relationship can." But the point @Beck Water made is still true. Trading Diggs was not, primarily, a cap move. It was a culture / relationship re-set. 2 Quote
oldmanfan Posted May 17 Posted May 17 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: Josh and Diggs fell out over a year before he played is last game here. There was definitely a point of "gone as far as this relationship can." But the point @Beck Water made is still true. Trading Diggs was not, primarily, a cap move. It was a culture / relationship re-set. Agreed Quote
GunnerBill Posted May 17 Posted May 17 10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: The Bills haven't started a season without a WR that had accumulated at least 900 yards(a low bar) in any NFL season since 1987. Right now, that's the case unless they trade for someone who's proven they can be a WR1 or a good WR2. It's just another unnecessary leap of faith at the position.........same as the past 2 offseasons(which ultimately failed the team) but a considerably larger leap this time. But haven't you heard? Wide receivers are ten a penny and some sort of money ball gumpf about "yard accumulators" means this is actually the Bills out-smarting the league. If only the other teams were smart enough to go with a wing, a prayer, and an alligator armed slot receiver!! 5 Quote
Augie Posted May 17 Posted May 17 3 hours ago, oldmanfan said: I have absolutely no evidence to support this, but I’m thinking Josh was sick of dealing with Diggs and wanted him gone. ….and I couldn’t blame him. Quote
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