Marquez Valdes-Scantling meeting with the Bills (UPDATE: Signed)

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

It’s all good…but come on man, come back to reality.  If you think MVS, Chase, or Hollins are capable of over taking Samuel and even Coleman, then that is the wildest take I have seen all off season.  
 

I can accept you are not high on the group, but that is such an unrealistic and over the top take.  
 

The only caveat is that Claypool actually has the pure ability and talent to be a WR1 or WR2 and succeed in this league.  But his attitude, mental ineptitude, entitlement, etc have sunk his stock to lower than ABs.  So if he shocks and comes in and busts his tail off, hustles, puts the effort and work in, he could surprise and maybe be the WR2 for the Bills at some point.  But that’s a lot to ask, and I’m not holding my breath as it’s rare a guy can make that kind of turnaround when things like effort and selfishness are so ingrained in their character.  

I don't think that at all, nor did I state as much.

What depresses me about this group is that -- in my opinion -- they installed two fairly unimpressive guys as presumptive WR1 and WR2 (I was not a fan of Coleman as a prospect and I think Curtis Samuel is just fine, but no better than fine), then proceeded to sign only WR4-WR9 types who DON'T have a chance of overtaking the top guys. Like...that's the problem in a nutshell to me. The depth of the group is fine, but there's not much quality to it, particularly at the top.

To be honest, I actually think it would be a fairly high quality WR depth chart if a number one receiver was added to it. In other words, I think Coleman can be a good #2, Shakir a quality slot (which he'll be anyway), Samuel a great #4, etc. If it just had an alpha WR at the top, then I'd be fine with the rest of it. But it doesn't. It looks like a nice supporting cast for a #1 guy, but the Bills don't have a #1 guy.

At the end of the day, the WR group just looks subpar to me. I've run out of different ways to explain why that is, but it continues to be my feeling. I'm normally the most optimistic, rose colored glasses wearing Bills fan you'll ever meet, but I don't like the way they've gone about the WR position this offseason.

I think that anyone who is being fair and rational, if they're really being honest with themselves, would have to admit that this Bills WR group looks to be no better than, say, 25th in the league. I count about 5-7 teams that are similar or worse at WR, but that's it. Do you disagree? Do you think it looks any better than the 25th best group in the league?

To me, having a bottom third WR group is simply unacceptable when you have Josh Allen in his prime.

[dave mcbride]

45 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

Jazz Odyssey?

Awesome call! Mach II FTW!!

 

 

[Mat68]

27 minutes ago, stevestojan said:

Not going to start an entire topic on this but since we’re talking WR, does Shorter have any potential? I know next to nothing about him and we haven’t been able to see him play of course. 

Probably not.  Has the athletic profile but no elite production.  Was on the offense with a top 10 Qb prospect and didn't really produce.  Maybe he puts it all together.  More likely he is an elite trait core special teamer. 

[HappyDays]

56 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Isn’t Hollins a special teams ace type player? I always thought of his acquisition as occupying the WR5 Jake Kummerow/Sherfield role of a special teams ace who can play WR a bit in case of injury or in 4/5 wide special sets a few snaps a game. 
 

I never thought they were going to go into the season with him as a WR unless there were injuries. The drafting of Coleman moved him down out of a top 3 spot now MVS has moved into the pure WR4 slot which firmly bumps Hollins down to WR5

 

The problem is that WR5 is a more important role when you don't have a WR1. Hollins as a depth WR on the Dolphins would be fine. Just like Sherfield on the Dolphins was able to produce some. But you put them on a team without that elite WR1 and their deficiencies become legit problems on the roster, as we saw last year.

[SoonerBillsFan]

With a 1mil SB,  he is almost assured to be a roster lock.  

[dave mcbride]

12 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Another way to look at it is that they will have added drain-circling vets like Hollins and MVS to an already unimpressive cast of never-been's.

 

 

I think the term you're looking for is "dog's breakfast": 

 

 "A dog's breakfast is any kind of smorgasbord prepared, in haste or at random, from life's castoffs. In this case, it was the chicken bones and half-eaten pizzas of policies that the Administration had proposed earlier and Congress had rejected. . . . Cat people wouldn't understand, but anyone who has ever walked a dog down an alley would."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/07/magazine/on-language-dog-s-breakfast.html

[SoonerBillsFan]

12 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I’d rather have several good guys vs. 1 great guy 

Thank you.   Maybe by game 12 or so,fans will realize there is no true #1 in this offense.  The ball goes to whomever is open

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

I don't think that at all, nor did I state as much.

What depresses me about this group is that -- in my opinion -- they installed two fairly unimpressive guys as presumptive WR1 and WR2 (I was not a fan of Coleman as a prospect and I think Curtis Samuel is just fine, but no better than fine), then proceeded to sign only WR4-WR9 types who DON'T have a chance of overtaking the top guys. Like...that's the problem in a nutshell to me. The depth of the group is fine, but there's not much quality to it, particularly at the top.

To be honest, I actually think it would be a fairly high quality WR depth chart if a number one receiver was added to it. In other words, I think Coleman can be a good #2, Shakir a quality slot (which he'll be anyway), Samuel a great #4, etc. If it just had an alpha WR at the top, then I'd be fine with the rest of it. But it doesn't. It looks like a nice supporting cast for a #1 guy, but the Bills don't have a #1 guy.

At the end of the day, the WR group just looks subpar to me. I've run out of different ways to explain why that is, but it continues to be my feeling. I'm normally the most optimistic, rose colored glasses wearing Bills fan you'll ever meet, but I don't like the way they've gone about the WR position this offseason.

I think that anyone who is being fair and rational, if they're really being honest with themselves, would have to admit that this Bills WR group looks to be no better than, say, 25th in the league. I count about 5-7 teams that are similar or worse at WR, but that's it. Do you disagree? Do you think it looks any better than the 25th best group in the league?

To me, having a bottom third WR group is simply unacceptable when you have Josh Allen in his prime.

 

This is a very fair take. 

 

Most fans of other teams would look at Coleman - Shakir - Samuel - MVS - Hollins and agree with you. 

 

That can change when we see them on the field, in this offense, with Brady, with Allen.  But as of today, that WR room doesn't scare anyone, and we - as Bills fans - are taking the best case scenario, which is that Brady is the real deal at play caller, Allen can elevate these guys, Kincaid is the #1 ala Kelce/Andrews and these WR's are all, at least, WR2/WR3 ability.

 

We have an interesting collection of talent on Offense.  Allen is obviously elite.  I think we likely have a Top 12 OL again.  RB's and TE's are arguably Top 5 groups in the league.  The WR room makes a lot of sense 1-5, but has no one, as of yet, that scares anyone. 

 

I can't fault those who are optimistic and I also can't fault those who are pessimistic.  The fact is, this WR room is a bottom tier group on paper.. and while KC/BAL rooms aren't world beaters, they have more proven talent and Tight Ends that have shown they can be the focal point of the passing game. 

[muppy]

7 minutes ago, Logic said:

At the end of the day, the WR group just looks subpar to me. I've run out of different ways to explain why that is, but it continues to be my feeling. I'm normally the most optimistic, rose colored glasses wearing Bills fan you'll ever meet, but I don't like the way they've gone about the WR position this offseason.

I think that anyone who is being fair and rational, if they're really being honest with themselves, would have to admit that this Bills WR group looks to be no better than, say, 25th in the league. I count about 5-7 teams that are similar or worse at WR, but that's it. Do you disagree? Do you think it looks any better than the 25th best group in the league?

To me, having a bottom third WR group is simply unacceptable when you have Josh Allen in his prime.

Greetings. For me after reading you a lot of what has been posted lately regarding the WR corps, the lines I bolded are the crux of the matter bottom line

 

I understand your take and hope you are wrong amigo.  Josh Allen is a playmaker and we need all we can get around him 100%. Such skepticism from you though. It's muppy cringe time. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

The problem is that WR5 is a more important role when you don't have a WR1. Hollins as a depth WR on the Dolphins would be fine. Just like Sherfield on the Dolphins was able to produce some. But you put them on a team without that elite WR1 and their deficiencies become legit problems on the roster, as we saw last year.

When did having an elite WR1 become the only way to win a Super Bowl? It’s such a big topic on this board.

[BeastMaster]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

I don't think that at all, nor did I state as much.

What depresses me about this group is that -- in my opinion -- they installed two fairly unimpressive guys as presumptive WR1 and WR2 (I was not a fan of Coleman as a prospect and I think Curtis Samuel is just fine, but no better than fine), then proceeded to sign only WR4-WR9 types who DON'T have a chance of overtaking the top guys. Like...that's the problem in a nutshell to me. The depth of the group is fine, but there's not much quality to it, particularly at the top.

To be honest, I actually think it would be a fairly high quality WR depth chart if a number one receiver was added to it. In other words, I think Coleman can be a good #2, Shakir a quality slot (which he'll be anyway), Samuel a great #4, etc. If it just had an alpha WR at the top, then I'd be fine with the rest of it. But it doesn't. It looks like a nice supporting cast for a #1 guy, but the Bills don't have a #1 guy.

At the end of the day, the WR group just looks subpar to me. I've run out of different ways to explain why that is, but it continues to be my feeling. I'm normally the most optimistic, rose colored glasses wearing Bills fan you'll ever meet, but I don't like the way they've gone about the WR position this offseason.

I think that anyone who is being fair and rational, if they're really being honest with themselves, would have to admit that this Bills WR group looks to be no better than, say, 25th in the league. I count about 5-7 teams that are similar or worse at WR, but that's it. Do you disagree? Do you think it looks any better than the 25th best group in the league?

To me, having a bottom third WR group is simply unacceptable when you have Josh Allen in his prime.

The problem is that your basing it on not having an elite receiver out of the group.

 

Is that a bad thing? I'm not so sure it is. Diggs demanded the ball, and if he wasn't getting his targets, he was not happy about it. If you think that didn't play into Josh's mindset that he had to prioritize Diggs instead of run the offense as intended, smoke another one. Josh being able to just go through his reads and make the right play could lead to more improvement just on that alone. Also, we went through in previous threads here on the board where elite WR's have gotten their teams, and generally speaking they don't get them over the hump, yet you continue to pine for one...even though we already did that and that guy failed in the playoffs.

 

You also don't like Coleman, so that is affecting your outlook on the group. If he's Tee Higgins, this group is more than fine, and I actually think he can be Tee Higgins with some more ability underneath and a bigger route tree.

 

We lost Diggs and Davis, but we have added numerous guys that can play and produce. I'm not overly concerned

[JohnBonhamRocks]

I think we are looking to make our bread and butter on offense be (in addition to an even further souped up run game) that our pass catchers 3-5 can beat your pass defenders 3-5. 
 

Great: double Kincaid and throw your best CB at Samuel or Coleman if you want, but we are going to: (a) maul your league-trending tinier defenders who match up with speed, and (b) live on one of Samuel/Shakir/Coleman getting your CB3 and/or MVS getting your CB4 and/or Cook/Knox getting in space with the thumper LB brought in to stop our running attack. 
 

I do understand the “gravity” argument but I’m not sure that Diggs drew double coverage quite as often as we might estimate and I do tend to agree with the take that there is power in sharing the football.

Edited May 14 by JohnBonhamRocks

[BeastMaster]

3 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

This is a very fair take. 

 

Most fans of other teams would look at Coleman - Shakir - Samuel - MVS - Hollins and agree with you. 

 

That can change when we see them on the field, in this offense, with Brady, with Allen.  But as of today, that WR room doesn't scare anyone, and we - as Bills fans - are taking the best case scenario, which is that Brady is the real deal at play caller, Allen can elevate these guys, Kincaid is the #1 ala Kelce/Andrews and these WR's are all, at least, WR2/WR3 ability.

 

We have an interesting collection of talent on Offense.  Allen is obviously elite.  I think we likely have a Top 12 OL again.  RB's and TE's are arguably Top 5 groups in the league.  The WR room makes a lot of sense 1-5, but has no one, as of yet, that scares anyone. 

 

I can't fault those who are optimistic and I also can't fault those who are pessimistic.  The fact is, this WR room is a bottom tier group on paper.. and while KC/BAL rooms aren't world beaters, they have more proven talent and Tight Ends that have shown they can be the focal point of the passing game. 

This post probably sums it up best.

 

The optimists will see what has been done and will envision it working out well. It likely won't be as great as they think, and there will be struggles along the way.

 

The same can be said about the skeptics/pessimists. They think they have a bottom of the league group and that the offense will suffer. This take is also not very likely given the offense is led by Josh Allen and a good Oline and good RB's

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, muppy said:

Such skepticism from you though. It's muppy cringe time. 

Yeah, I get it, Mup.

People aren't used to seeing ol' Logic be pessimistic and do anything other than toe the company line.

One of the big reasons that I have so often appeared optimistic and had a rosy outlook is that I have more often than not agreed with the way Brandon Beane has built this team. I continue to be a fan of his, and I think he's a great GM.

But it would be intellectually dishonest of me to not give voice to my displeasure when I think he's making missteps and not giving Josh Allen the best chance to succeed and, thus, not giving the Buffalo Bills the best chance to succeed.

Time will tell if I'm right or wrong, but you can trust that I'm always going to be honest about the way I view things. And this offseason, for the first time in a long time, I feel disappointed in the way Beane has chosen to go about things. I feel less optimistic right now than I did at this time last season, and that's not a nice feeling. Cringe if you must. I shall continue to speak my truth.

[SoonerBillsFan]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

When did having an elite WR1 become the only way to win a Super Bowl? It’s such a big topic on this board.

It isn't the only way, but many fans are too caught up with that fallacy. 

[DJB]

Beane signed him and Edwards so we know the Chiefs playbooks on offense and defence

 

Its brilliant 

[SoonerBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

Yeah, I get it, Mup.

People aren't used to seeing ol' Logic be pessimistic and do anything other than toe the company line.

One of the big reasons that I have so often appeared optimistic and had a rosy outlook is that I have more often than not agreed with the way Brandon Beane has built this team. I continue to be a fan of his, and I think he's a great GM.

But it would be intellectually dishonest of me to not give voice to my displeasure when I think he's making missteps and not giving Josh Allen the best chance to succeed and, thus, not giving the Buffalo Bills the best chance to succeed.

Time will tell if I'm right or wrong, but you can trust that I'm always going to be honest about the way I view things. And this offseason, for the first time in a long time, I feel disappointed in the way Beane has chosen to go about things. I feel less optimistic right now than I did at this time last season, and that's not a nice feeling. Cringe if you must. I shall continue to speak my truth.

Logic, while I disagree with you in regards to what's going on, I love ya as a poster and always respect your opinion👍

[Don Otreply]

9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I think the term you're looking for is "dog's breakfast": 

 

 "A dog's breakfast is any kind of smorgasbord prepared, in haste or at random, from life's castoffs. In this case, it was the chicken bones and half-eaten pizzas of policies that the Administration had proposed earlier and Congress had rejected. . . . Cat people wouldn't understand, but anyone who has ever walked a dog down an alley would."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/07/magazine/on-language-dog-s-breakfast.html

Actually you are describing the infamous “ Garbage plate” at Nick Tahoes back in the day…, oddly enough it was quite good, as I suspect our WRs to be this season, 😁👍

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

When did having an elite WR1 become the only way to win a Super Bowl? It’s such a big topic on this board.

 

#1 target of the last 10 Super Bowl participants:

 

Travis Kelce

Brandon Aiyuk

Travis Kelce

AJ Brown

Cooper Kupp

Ja'Marr Chase

Mike Evans

Travis Kelce

Travis Kelce

George Kittle

 

By the way those teams also all had a #2 passing target that was better than anyone on the Bills roster right now. Several of them had a better #3 passing target.

 

That's the caliber of talent we're talking about. Meanwhile on this board we're wondering if Khalil Shakir can be the #1. It's honestly a complete joke.

 

I never expected us to find a #1 caliber pass target right away after trading Diggs. I expected a step back. It is just frustrating that Beane didn't even really try. We added one WR in the draft and then signed a couple low-probability scratch offs in Claypool and Hamler, and the rest has been complementary or depth additions.

 

We have to hope Kincaid is ready to be a #1 pass target. That's probably our best hope. The next best hope is maybe... Claypool? I don't know. It's just not a good situation and we're likely to enter next offseason with the same questions that we entered this offseason with.

 

Edited May 14 by HappyDays

[BeastMaster]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

Yeah, I get it, Mup.

People aren't used to seeing ol' Logic be pessimistic and do anything other than toe the company line.

One of the big reasons that I have so often appeared optimistic and had a rosy outlook is that I have more often than not agreed with the way Brandon Beane has built this team. I continue to be a fan of his, and I think he's a great GM.

But it would be intellectually dishonest of me to not give voice to my displeasure when I think he's making missteps and not giving Josh Allen the best chance to succeed and, thus, not giving the Buffalo Bills the best chance to succeed.

Time will tell if I'm right or wrong, but you can trust that I'm always going to be honest about the way I view things. And this offseason, for the first time in a long time, I feel disappointed in the way Beane has chosen to go about things. I feel less optimistic right now than I did at this time last season, and that's not a nice feeling. Cringe if you must. I shall continue to speak my truth.

I expect everyone to speak truthfully here, and if you are not, then I don't know what your purpose is here.

 

That being said, I appreciate your commentary and simply think you are just wrong on this one, but like everything...time will tell.