Marquez Valdes-Scantling meeting with the Bills (UPDATE: Signed)

[Buddy Hix]

$4.5 million for a Chiefs cast off? Beane is not nearly as good of a GM as many give him credit for.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Imo all these are pretty easily better than Bills pass catchers except maybe Chargers and broncos 

Care to expand on that?

[folz]

3 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

Iirc someone posted here recently that Diggs has all of four TDs in his playoff career as well, so…, 

 

1 hour ago, Starr Almighty said:

TDs aren't easy to come by I was more focused on yardage and receptions 

 

I'm fine with the MVS signing (even though he frustrated me with drops when I had him in fantasy when he was still in Green Bay). The more competition this year, the better. And we are at least deeper than we were last year, even if the top isn't as strong. But, I also think we will be a different offense this year under Brady. A more ball-control offense, hence the bigger receivers. I think targets will go Kincaid, Shakir/Samuel, Coleman, RBs, Knox, then the best of the rest (whoever rises to the top of the remaining candidates). So, whoever that is will be fighting for like the 7th target-share position. And we at least have a lot of options there. If Brady can use each guy we keep to his skill set, in a committee-like approach, running the ball at like a 54/46 percentage, I think this offense can still be very potent with Kincaid as your #1/#2 target and Josh at the helm. It's just going to look different...maybe more of an old New England style offense (but one that takes some more risks/shots downfield, etc.). Just my guess/opinion at the moment. So, I'm not complaining about adding more competition.

 

 

However, I really wanted to address the quotes above. On paper, losing Diggs and Davis looks pretty bad. But, neither were consistently clutch in the playoffs and they definitely weren't helping us get over that divisional round hump. [I still like both players and am happy they were Bills, but it probably was time for a change.]

 

Diggs' playoff numbers:

 

Over his total playoff career (14 games with Minnesota and Buffalo), Stefon has averaged 5 receptions for 65 yards and 0.29 TDs per playoff game.

 

Over his Bills playoff career (9 games), Stefon averaged almost the same: 5 receptions for 67 yards and 0.22 TDs/playoff game

 

Stefon did really well in the 2020 playoffs, averaging 7 receptions for 104 yards and 0.66 TDs per playoff game that season (3 games total).

 

However, over the last three seasons (2021-2023; 6 playoff games), Stefon only averaged 4.5 receptions for 48 yards and 0 TDs/playoff game, with a 58.9% catch percentage and a 41.1% success percentage. Those numbers are not great...and that was our #1 WR over 3 years of playoffs.

 

 

Gabe Davis had the really nice playoff game in Indy his rookie year, then had the monster game in KC in 2021, and an excellent game against Miami in 2022. But, in his other 4 playoff games, he averaged 1 reception for 18.7 yards and 0.25 TDs. And then, of course, he was unavailable for the two playoff games this year (due to injury). Obviously, you can't blame a guy for getting injured, but he only helped in 3 out of the 9 playoff games the Bills had while he was here. 

 

So, of the 18 combined possible playoff games played by Diggs and Davis as Bills (9 each), Stef had 4 good games and Davis had 3 good games (7 out of 18). And actually, three of the games overlap. So, we had 3 of 9 games where they both played well, and then in the other 6 playoff games, they both had bad stats for 5 of the 6, and in the other Diggs did good, but not Davis. We obviously need to do better in the post-season, however Brady and McD think that can be done. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Really? I find that odd, but not as odd as the false binary you offered. It’s actually possible to have one great player AND several good players. Good WRs aren’t that difficult to find, but difference making WRs are. That’s because they’re rare and very valuable. One of their valuable impacts is that they can elevate the players around them. 

I can see us drafting another WR next year, but we are not going to trade for another guy this year due to cap and such.  While you can have what you describe, it is harder to do so and manage the cap.  
 

I would alter your statement to say you need a difference maker on offense in general.  It can be a WR but also a TE or a RB.  Or a couple in combination.  The Pats when they had Gronk and of course the Chiefs with Kelce as examples.  I’m hoping Kincaid is that guy.

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, Buddy Hix said:

$4.5 million for a Chiefs cast off? Beane is not nearly as good of a GM as many give him credit for.

 

Let's hope he gets paid $4.5M.  That would mean he hit ALL the incentives.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Judging by Embedded, if we didn't go Ray Davis, it was going to be Van Pran-Granger, who we got a round later.  

 

I'm not in love with spending a 4th on a RB.  That said.. I do think Brady's Offense likes having good receivers as backs.  When Cook comes out and Davis goes in, we might not have the down field WR routes that Cook can run, but Davis is an above average receiving back, so we still can operate the same offense regardless of who's in the game. 

I don't hate this logic... every once in a while.

 

At a certain point, your habits become your strategy. They throw away picks at RB's and don't draft enough WR's.  Which is why we are sitting here debating if we've done enough at WR for the third year in a row.

 

I would LOVE to pick Beane's brain about why, with the way WR contracts have exploded and how Josh has elevated when he's surrounded by receiving talent, they have not drafted enough WR's. Not sure I'd get a satisfactory answer.

[Chandler#81]

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, Buddy Hix said:

$4.5 million for a Chiefs cast off? Beane is not nearly as good of a GM as many give him credit for.

It’s much less than that. If he makes $4.5

million it means he has over 55 catches and over 7 TDs.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I don't think that at all, nor did I state as much.

What depresses me about this group is that -- in my opinion -- they installed two fairly unimpressive guys as presumptive WR1 and WR2 (I was not a fan of Coleman as a prospect and I think Curtis Samuel is just fine, but no better than fine), then proceeded to sign only WR4-WR9 types who DON'T have a chance of overtaking the top guys. Like...that's the problem in a nutshell to me. The depth of the group is fine, but there's not much quality to it, particularly at the top.

To be honest, I actually think it would be a fairly high quality WR depth chart if a number one receiver was added to it. In other words, I think Coleman can be a good #2, Shakir a quality slot (which he'll be anyway), Samuel a great #4, etc. If it just had an alpha WR at the top, then I'd be fine with the rest of it. But it doesn't. It looks like a nice supporting cast for a #1 guy, but the Bills don't have a #1 guy.

At the end of the day, the WR group just looks subpar to me. I've run out of different ways to explain why that is, but it continues to be my feeling. I'm normally the most optimistic, rose colored glasses wearing Bills fan you'll ever meet, but I don't like the way they've gone about the WR position this offseason.

I think that anyone who is being fair and rational, if they're really being honest with themselves, would have to admit that this Bills WR group looks to be no better than, say, 25th in the league. I count about 5-7 teams that are similar or worse at WR, but that's it. Do you disagree? Do you think it looks any better than the 25th best group in the league?

To me, having a bottom third WR group is simply unacceptable when you have Josh Allen in his prime.

 

Well there in lies the disconnect or disagreement per se.  You are "sold" that Coleman isn't capable of being a WR1.  And while there is nothing wrong with you having that opinion of an unproven player, I think you are not leaving yourself room to be proven wrong either.  As much sold you are that he is nothing more than a WR2, there are others sold he can be an elite WR1.  

 

I get it though, everyone has takes or opinions this time of year, and nothing wrong with that.  But, I would recommend at least leaving room for the concept that Coleman may just be the Alpha you say you would be excited about this group if we had.  He was definitely drafted by guys who scouted him beyond just a highlight tape at FSU to be the Alpha.  But hey, I am not saying you are wrong for your opinion or concerns either, I just think its always, 100% of the time, a mistake to conclusively decide on a rookies future before they have ever stepped on the field.  How many people had St. Brown pegged to be who he is on draft night?  Nobody was talking about Davante Adams, Cooper Kupp, etc etc on the nights they were drafted to be elite top 5 players at points in their careers.  Mr. Irrelevant just started in the Super Bowl and was an MVP candidate in his first full year starting, also only his 2nd year in the league.  

 

The best talent doesn't normally have all the best measurables, that has been proven time in and time again over and over throughout NFL history.  People (saying in general, not sure what your main beef specifically is with him) wanting to write off or significantly cap Coleman's potential because they don't love really one main measurable (his 40 time being the most talked about negative and then translating that to he won't get open) is incredibly premature.  I am all for doubt, concerns, questions, etc...its the conclusive mindset that he "can't" be something before he has stepped on the field that I will never understand...same goes for anyone who conclusively decided he will be a stud as that is just as premature too.  

 

Lastly...this whole statement I bolded above is wild to me, and honestly, its a "fools gold" type answer, meaning it leads to a false positive answer.  First off, ranking the WR group is an absolutely meaningless exercise and really has no realistic way to predictive of on field results.  No disrespect, but this notion that the only way to rank or build a WR group is on sheer talent is not at all accurate.  I get the mindset, but it leads to a false predictive conclusion of expected results.  A bottom tier WR group is currently the back to back SB champions.  In all 7 of Brady's SB wins he had a mediocre or bottom tier group of WR's and the ones he lost he had his best set of WR's in his career.  All kinds of teams besides Chiefs and Patriots had mediocre to bad WR groups who won the SB even in the passing era of the NFL like Philly, Seattle, Ravens, Giants, etc.  

 

What makes a group good or not is not the individual accolades, its the fit within the team, the offense, as a core, etc.  Not many teams who won the SB in the past 20 years had a truly dominant Alpha WR.  Its not about having a WR that puts up over 1500 yards...in fact, go check the NFL SB winners and count how many teams had that kind of WR on their roster when they won the SB.  

 

You want to win in the postseason then you better win in the trenches and you better move the chains.  Its not rocket science, and there are many ways to move the chains.  Some do it with a dominant run game...some do it with spreading the ball around with a balanced attack...some do it with an all out air attack to an Alpha WR.  You know which of those happens more?  The teams who SPREAD the ball around with a balanced offense.  Go count how many SB winners won in an all out air attack to a Alpha WR.  Go count how many SB winners won in an all out ground attack.  And then go and look at the box score of the teams who had a balanced offense where they spread the ball around, were able to run the ball, and kept the chains moving controlling the clock and scoring points.  Its overwhelmingly that category.  

 

So while I get until we see the product on the field there is warranted doubt, concerns, questions, etc...this whole we are "doomed" mentailty doesn't actually add up to SB championship results.  We have literally have the #1 WR in efficiency and catch rate from 2023 just now coming into his own, we have the 2nd leading TE in efficiency and catch rate as a rookie in Kincaid, we just added a 4.3 guy in Samuel who has never had a real QB and had his best seasons under Brady, and we have a promising rookie how at the very least is a MUCH NEEDED redzone TD machine.  And thats with arguably the 2nd best QB in the league, and some other quality depth behind them and a run game that was quite good last year and might be even better this year.  

 

Meanwhile, the best WR's of the last 20 years mostly are without a SB ring.  None for Adams, Hopkins, Megatron, Julio, Jefferson, Chase, Diggs, etc, etc.  Would it be great to also have a WR like one of those guys...sure...but history has shown its not even remotely close to "necessary", especially to the degree some of you have bene making it out to be.

 

I don't say all this to smite you, I say all this to maybe help talk you off your ledge abit because you have been abnormally angry and over the top about this subject for awhile.  And I think its fair to be concerned until we see what happens, but there is also more possibility and more hope here than you realize.  

 

Personally...I think Josh Allen is about to have his best career season yet.  And there is no one who will be running out there on that field the DC can ignore, including Cook and Davis out of the back field.   

Edited May 14 by Alphadawg7

[JerseyBills]

i like this alot. remember Andy Isabella was playing significant snaps in a divisional playoff game... 

Claypool/MVS are both extremely talented,  just have to get their heads right and this is the perfect place for that. 

 

MVS at depth is awesome.  KC gave him 11 mil per year just 2 years ago, we know he's talented,  just not a WR2 or 3 and he won't be,  so he could be effective in a situational WR role as a vertical threat.

 

If injuries happen, at least we have a talented guy and not Andy Isabella in a playoff game 

 

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I don't hate this logic... every once in a while.

 

At a certain point, your habits become your strategy. They throw away picks at RB's and don't draft enough WR's.  Which is why we are sitting here debating if we've done enough at WR for the third year in a row.

 

I would LOVE to pick Beane's brain about why, with the way WR contracts have exploded and how Josh has elevated when he's surrounded by receiving talent, they have not drafted enough WR's. Not sure I'd get a satisfactory answer.

YOU and several others are debating this.  Others want to see how the team plays before worrying.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Simple math. I give you WR1.

 

If Shakir gets 160 targets like Diggs he will have 139 catches, 2,182 yards, and 7 TDs.

 

 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

YOU and several others are debating this.  Others want to see how the team plays before worrying.

If you don’t want to discuss the Bills, you don’t have to go on TBD lol

[billieve420]

This receiving room leaves a lot to be desired no question about it. However, when you are paying a Franchise QB there is some expectation he can lift average players above their normal level of performance. So Josh is going to have to make due this year. 

Edited May 14 by billieve420

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

If you don’t want to discuss the Bills, you don’t have to go on TBD lol

Others like me think they’ll be fine on offense.  

[HappyDays]

30 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Brady called a fantastic gameplan against KC. 

 

I think he called the only gameplan he could with our undermanned offensive roster. A ball control offense that had to thread the needle repeatedly and force Allen to use his legs more than is sustainable over a 17+ game season, just to sort of keep us in the game. That isn't an offense to strive for, it's an offense that can get you out of a game.

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, billieve420 said:

This receiving room leaves a lot to be desired no question about it. However, when you are paying a Franchise QB there is some expectation he can lift average players above their normal level of performance. So Josh is going to have to make due this year. 

 

Let's just hope the Defense, where we have recent investment in guys like Oliver, Jones, Epenesa, Von, Milano, Johnson & Douglas, along with high draft picks in Rousseau, Carter, Bernard, Elam & Bishop also holds up it's end of the deal.  

 

Especially when it matters. 

 

We've asked Josh to carry this team since he made the jump to elite QB.  Analyst after analyst point out how he's asked to do more for our team than any QB in the league has to do for theirs.  

 

And for the most part, he has elevated everyone.  And in the Playoffs, he is the equal to the man leading the league's current dynasty. 

 

Now, we seem to be building an Offense that is equipped to take more off his plate, but without anyone that truly scares a Defense (as we sit here today).  

 

Let's see how it goes.   We only get so many prime Josh Allen years.  They better have a plan, and that plan better work. 

[Warriorspikes51]

18 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I'd be okay with this. We don't have a field stretching WR on the roster. He gives us a baseline for that role, albeit a low baseline.

 

He had game sealing plays against us, Baltimore and had a TD in the SB.  Clutch

 

I know he can be a very frustrating player, but the speed and size is good 

ANOTHER 6'4 WR.   

 

 

 

WR Camp Competition is going to be a wild battle.  IMO, I'd put them at this for now 

Coleman
Samuel

Shakir

MVS

Claypool
Hamler
Hollis 

 

Cephus
Shorter
Shavers

Xavier J. 
Isabella

Edited May 14 by Warriorspikes51

[Lost]

Are the Bills only hiring 6'4 receivers now?   Mack Hollins 6'4, Keon Coleman 6'4, Chase Claypool 6'4, Justin Shorter 6'4, MVS 6'4, Dalton Kincaid 6'4, Dawson Knox 6'4

 

Edited May 14 by Lost

[FLFan]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Double dip at WR in the draft was the obvious move. Signing the more talented OBJ for almost the same money we are getting MVS for. Don't act like there weren't other options.

The Bills tried to sign OBJ, as did the Chiefs, according to OBJ.  He chose Miami.