WR trade candidates, who do you want?

[TheBrownBear]

28 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I honestly do not see any similarities between Davis and Coleman besides slight height weight similarities

 

Davis is a bulked up more clunky athlete...

 

Keon Coleman played division one basketball... Can flush down alley oops smooth ..  he looks like a glider

 

Was Florida state's primary punt return... Everybody knows you put your best athlete in college at punt returner 

 

So Florida State thought he was the best athlete on the team... He's fluid and smooth... Davis clunky 

 

Davis has a weird catching motion.. keon Coleman has clean hands 

 

I've seen him hurdle people, one hand catch, juke people.. and run by people 

 

 Davis didn't even do that at UCF... He's a supreme athlete who is still getting better at football..  which will be a plus for the bills

 

I like your thinking and I'm starting to come around to the idea that Coleman might eventually turn into a stud.  I don't think it will be right away, but I like his ceiling.  He's fluid and you can just see he's a naturally gifted athlete.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

I like your thinking and I'm starting to come around to the idea that Coleman might eventually turn into a stud.  I don't think it will be right away, but I like his ceiling.  He's fluid and you can just see he's a naturally gifted athlete.

This is a pick that screams we're shooting for the Stars 

 

Now Josh Allen.. has already made undrafted Robert Foster look like a viable NFL receiver 

 

There is a much greater chance that he develops chemistry with Josh and becomes very good then being a bad pick.. he seems like a very funny humble down to earth kid 

 

I in fact was sold.. when he had a scholarship offer to Louisiana State University... Probably the best wide receiver developers in the country at the amateur level 

 

And turned it down to go a thousand miles away to Michigan State.. a running team that can't recruit a quarterback

 

Because he wanted to get away from bad influences and mature... That screams I know what I'm capable of

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Coleman absolutely has number one potential... His route running while not nuanced... He shows he can separate within 15 yards because of his smoothness 

 

In breaking routes he was tremendous on.. Gabe only was good on posts for in breaking routes 

 

Couldn't run a 15 yd square in.. keon Coleman actually excells on a square in.. which is one of Josh's favorite throws... Him and diggs were money 

 

He's been a two sports star for the last decade.. there are not many people alive who Kansas recruits for football and basketball... He's probably the only one 

 

And his athleticism is starting to show more on tape than it did 2 years ago... You say wide receiver two but his athleticism is too good..  and everybody says he's a good worker

 

I say more athletic keenan Allen once he figures out leverage for route running... He is capable of running good routes he just isn't nuance

 

I have friends who still scout for NFL teams including me still being on the road.. and I got a dozen texts saying we got the steal of the draft from NFL scouts

 

 

Agree he has more route versatility than Gabe. But I am not with you on the Keenan Allen comp. I will be here to eat crow if I am wrong (and obviously I hope I am) but I think he is an NFL #2 WR or a guy who can be a #1 as a big slot in very specific type of offense (which would need some transition from the Bills). I also speak to guys who are scouts in the league. I don't hate Coleman as a pick but I don't think he is a true #1 and nor do people I speak to FWIW.

15 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Therein lies the problem.  A contending team is going to go into the season with their on-paper best WR as C Samuel?  Ouch.  I hope for Beane's sake they don't give out worst GM of the year award.

 

And it's not only a 2024 problem.  The hole will still be there for 2025.  

 

It seems to me, people on this board micromanage the words from Beane.  If we take a step back and say Beane is a good GM.  A good GM would never go into a season with C Samuel as their top WR.  Ergo, the Bills will get a better WR.   The question then becomes who, and I have laid out my preferred options.

 

 

I don't step back and micromanage anything. I think he generally does what he says. And I think he is slightly overrated as a GM by this board. I think his QB and his HC are both better than him.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree he has more route versatility than Gabe. But I am not with you on the Keenan Allen comp. I will be here to eat crow if I am wrong (and obviously I hope I am) but I think he is an NFL #2 WR or a guy who can be a #1 as a big slot in very specific type of offense (which would need some transition from the Bills). I also speak to guys who are scouts in the league. I don't hate Coleman as a pick but I don't think he is a true #1 and nor do people I speak to FWIW.

Yeah but I'm also still paid to scout 

 

My opinion certainly is not unfalleable but I am plugged in at the highest level

 

But I've been watching these kids live since they were 17

 

I have a great feel for the dogs versus the joes

Edited May 13 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Yeah but I'm also still paid the scout 

 

My opinion certainly is not unfalleable 

 

But I've been watching these kids live since they were 17

 

And you are entitled to your view. But I am giving you mine. And it isn't just plucked out of thin air. Even though I am not paid to do this. 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And you are entitled to your view. But I am giving you mine. And it isn't just plucked out of thin air. Even though I am not paid to do this. 

 

You know what they say about opinions ...

 

Listen people here are calling him James Hardy... Which could be a lazy comparison 

 

But he is closer to Plex or Vincent Jackson or Keenan Allen athletically and talent wise then Gabe Davis

 

People around Florida State say he was the best wide receiver physically they've had in a long time

 

@GunnerBill even you know how ridiculous it is to have a guy like that returning punts at his size

 

That just shows they needed the ball in his hand

 

 

Edited May 13 by Buffalo716

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with you on the chance of making a trade. I disagree with you on Coleman and Davis being very different. There are some difference but some strong similarities too.

 

I think the differences out number and out weigh the similarities in how Davis can, and will play, here in Buffalo.

 

Let me put it this way...based on what you and I have previously discussed on Coleman, I think you would agree that Coleman is capable of at least doing the things Davis was able to do for the most part.  And definitely correct me if I am wrong, but I think you would agree with that based on things you previously said.

 

Since I don't have the answer right this minute, lets just assume you do answer yes, and think Coleman is at least capable of replacing Davis role in the offense.  Now lets look at some of the key components of them as players and who is better...

• ATHLETICISM:  Coleman is certainly more athletic than Davis.  Not only does Coleman have better burst and acceleration than Davis, but he has substantially better bend and hip flexibility giving him the agility to be effective on screens and even kick returning, things Davis will never be effective at.  Davis is a strider, it takes him longer to reach his top speed and its why Coleman will play faster than him on the field.  
• CATCHING:  Coleman has better hands, no surprise there.  I mean you can see it in how Coleman just plucks the ball from the air. 
• AWARENESS:  I would say Coleman is a smarter and a more cerebral player.  He is a student of the game and if you watch his interviews he can recall exact plays, exact thoughts, moments, decisions, discussions, etc on plays without even showing him the play.  Davis on field awareness was lacking and inconsistent from getting his feet down in bounds, where to go on an option, route depth, etc.  
• CATCH RADIUS:  Coleman has a bigger catch radius between the combo of his better hands and knowing how to use his size and body better thanks to his basketball background.  
• ROUTE TREE:  Coleman has a more robust route tree
• ROUTE RUNNING:  As a prospect, Coleman is the better route runner and has better foot work IMHO.  Davis rounded his routes off and his bread and butter were on routes without sharp cuts   
• BLOCKING:  This is the only area I can honestly give Davis the nod on as he is good blocker for a WR.  However, Coleman can block, and like Davis, is a willing blocker as well and has the potential to be right there with Davis in this area.

Now those items above do not mean Coleman is a lock to be a successful WR1 in the NFL, no one knows that, he will need to prove that on the field.  So any concerns you may have about that are still free and clear from the above comparison specifically between Coleman and Davis.  But, I do believe it certainly increases his potential to offer more and do more than Davis did the past 4 years.  

 

Personally, I do not see Davis when I watch Coleman play.  I do think Florida St used him and Wilson both a lot like how Davis played in the NFL, but I don't think that is the extent of Coleman's ability.  

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't step back and micromanage anything. I think he generally does what he says. And I think he is slightly overrated as a GM by this board. I think his QB and his HC are both better than him.

Beane IMO is an excellent GM, one of the best.  However a blunder of this magnitude with our starting WRs would force me to reevaluate.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Einstein's Dog said:

Beane IMO is an excellent GM, one of the best.  However a blunder of this magnitude with our starting WRs would force me to reevaluate.

 

I think he is a decent GM. He has some flaws though and his team building priorities are one. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think he is a decent GM. He has some flaws though and his team building priorities are one. 

He found Allen

 

Just for that alone he's excellent

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I think the differences out number and out weigh the similarities in how Davis can, and will play, here in Buffalo.

 

Let me put it this way...based on what you and I have previously discussed on Coleman, I think you would agree that Coleman is capable of at least doing the things Davis was able to do for the most part.  And definitely correct me if I am wrong, but I think you would agree with that based on things you previously said.

 

Since I don't have the answer right this minute, lets just assume you do answer yes, and think Coleman is at least capable of replacing Davis role in the offense.  Now lets look at some of the key components of them as players and who is better...

• ATHLETICISM:  Coleman is certainly more athletic than Davis.  Not only does Coleman have better burst and acceleration than Davis, but he has substantially better bend and hip flexibility giving him the agility to be effective on screens and even kick returning, things Davis will never be effective at.  Davis is a strider, it takes him longer to reach his top speed and its why Coleman will play faster than him on the field.  
• CATCHING:  Coleman has better hands, no surprise there.  I mean you can see it in how Coleman just plucks the ball from the air. 
• AWARENESS:  I would say Coleman is a smarter and a more cerebral player.  He is a student of the game and if you watch his interviews he can recall exact plays, exact thoughts, moments, decisions, discussions, etc on plays without even showing him the play.  Davis on field awareness was lacking and inconsistent from getting his feet down in bounds, where to go on an option, route depth, etc.  
• CATCH RADIUS:  Coleman has a bigger catch radius between the combo of his better hands and knowing how to use his size and body better thanks to his basketball background.  
• ROUTE TREE:  Coleman has a more robust route tree
• ROUTE RUNNING:  As a prospect, Coleman is the better route runner and has better foot work IMHO.  Davis rounded his routes off and his bread and butter were on routes without sharp cuts   
• BLOCKING:  This is the only area I can honestly give Davis the nod on as he is good blocker for a WR.  However, Coleman can block, and like Davis, is a willing blocker as well and has the potential to be right there with Davis in this area.

Now those items above do not mean Coleman is a lock to be a successful WR1 in the NFL, no one knows that, he will need to prove that on the field.  So any concerns you may have about that are still free and clear from the above comparison specifically between Coleman and Davis.  But, I do believe it certainly increases his potential to offer more and do more than Davis did the past 4 years.  

 

Personally, I do not see Davis when I watch Coleman play.  I do think Florida St used him and Wilson both a lot like how Davis played in the NFL, but I don't think that is the extent of Coleman's ability.  

 

I agree he can do most of what Gabe can do. I don't think he quite has the body control in tight areas of Gabe at this point but I am pretty sure he can develop that with NFL coaching and he isn't "bad" at that so much as Gabe was good there.

 

As for your areas of improvement the only two I give you without contest are athleticism and hands. I think Coleman is better in both areas. That was my view before his slow run (indeed there is an exchange between @HappyDays and I on here the Friday of the Combine week before the WRs worked out where I said that). I still say that, 40 time be damned. I think he is also more versatile. You might call that route tree - I'm not sure I would but I take the point to an extent. 

 

Beyond that.... I give Gabe the advantage as a blocker (though Coleman isn't bad), I think awareness, catch radius and route running are ties at best for Coleman. That is where we differ on our evaluation of who Keon is. And it isn't that I hate him. I had him a full round higher than I had Gabe at draft time. But I think there are limitations to his game that even though I see the potential I think will continue to hamper him. It is what I think caps his ceiling somewhat. He is a very good #2 for me. That doesn't make him a bad pick or a bad prospect. It is just where I think ultimately he ends up as an NFL player.

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He found Allen

 

Just for that alone he's excellent

 

That for sure is worthy of significant credit. The most important move you make as a GM is the shots you do (and don't) take at QBs.

[Alphadawg7]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree he can do most of what Gabe can do. I don't think he quite has the body control in tight areas of Gabe at this point but I am pretty sure he can develop that with NFL coaching and he isn't "bad" at that so much as Gabe was good there.

 

As for your areas of improvement the only two I give you without contest are athleticism and hands. I think Coleman is better in both areas. That was my view before his slow run (indeed there is an exchange between @HappyDays and I on here the Friday of the Combine week before the WRs worked out where I said that). I still say that, 40 time be damned. I think he is also more versatile. You might call that route tree - I'm not sure I would but I take the point to an extent. 

 

Beyond that.... I give Gabe the advantage as a blocker (though Coleman isn't bad), I think awareness, catch radius and route running are ties at best for Coleman. That is where we differ on our evaluation of who Keon is. And it isn't that I hate him. I had him a full round higher than I had Gabe at draft time. But I think there are limitations to his game that even though I see the potential I think will continue to hamper him. It is what I think caps his ceiling somewhat. He is a very good #2 for me. That doesn't make him a bad pick or a bad prospect. It is just where I think ultimately he ends up as an NFL player.

 

That for sure is worthy of significant credit. The most important move you make as a GM is the shots you do (and don't) take at QBs.

 

I know you don't hate him, and it's why I said too that my comparison wasn't meant to change your mind on your overall concerns or questions about him.  I think you are quite fair about him in your opinion even if I see him as a round higher than you did and see his ceiling probably higher than you.  It was more to show why I don't personally see them as that similar and why I think Coleman has the potential to be much more than Davis ever was.  By no means am I of the mindset he is a lock to be a successful WR1, but I do think his floor is high and that at the very least he will be a great WR2 if he doesn't prove to be the answer at WR1.  

 

Personally, when I watch Coleman and take into consideration all the attributes we just discussed, I don't think there is a particular WR that comes to mind as a direct 1 to 1 comparison.  His combo of size and fluid athleticism is pretty unique.  Coleman for me has both a high floor and still having a high ceiling.  If he reaches his potential, I think that could look something like a blend of DeAndre Hopkins and Brandon Marshall.  

[GolfandBills]

8 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Common misconception.  The Bills get $10M Tre money June 1st, also potential Josh restructure money. 

 

If you look at the salary aspects, none of those seem bad, it is the future money where the expense will be, and the Bills have room in the future.

Allen can’t restructure again until next year 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I know you don't hate him, and it's why I said too that my comparison wasn't meant to change your mind on your overall concerns or questions about him.  I think you are quite fair about him in your opinion even if I see him as a round higher than you did and see his ceiling probably higher than you.  It was more to show why I don't personally see them as that similar and why I think Coleman has the potential to be much more than Davis ever was.  By no means am I of the mindset he is a lock to be a successful WR1, but I do think his floor is high and that at the very least he will be a great WR2 if he doesn't prove to be the answer at WR1.  

 

Personally, when I watch Coleman and take into consideration all the attributes we just discussed, I don't think there is a particular WR that comes to mind as a direct 1 to 1 comparison.  His combo of size and fluid athleticism is pretty unique.  Coleman for me has both a high floor and still having a high ceiling.  If he reaches his potential, I think that could look something like a blend of DeAndre Hopkins and Brandon Marshall.  

 

I don't think he is the contested catch dominator that either of those two were and he doesn't have the close area quick feet of Hopkins either. Agree though he is a difficult pro comp. I actually think his best route to success in the NFL is big slot and again I said that on here before the Matt Harmons and Daniel Jeremiah's of the world went there. I there is some late career Larry Fitz there. But I do mean late career Larry Fitz. 

51 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

You know what they say about opinions ...

 

Listen people here are calling him James Hardy... Which could be a lazy comparison 

 

But he is closer to Plex or Vincent Jackson or Keenan Allen athletically and talent wise then Gabe Davis

 

People around Florida State say he was the best wide receiver physically they've had in a long time

 

@GunnerBill even you know how ridiculous it is to have a guy like that returning punts at his size

 

That just shows they needed the ball in his hand

 

 

I agree ball in hand he is a weapon. No doubt. It is how you get him the ball in hand and even at Florida State a lot of the plays where they did that to best effect was out of the slot with free releases. When he gets to dictate the route his physicality pops on the screen. When he doesn't and it is contested the entire way he is definitely less impressive.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, TheBrownBear said:

I like your thinking and I'm starting to come around to the idea that Coleman might eventually turn into a stud.  I don't think it will be right away, but I like his ceiling.  He's fluid and you can just see he's a naturally gifted athlete.

 

That is the best word I could find to describe Kincaid as well. I like an athlete out there with body control who can box out, track the ball and twist and turn to catch it. Yes, I crave some more speed to scare the defense, but two years in a row they have gone with fluid pass catchers with solid hands with their first pick. That ain’t nothin’.  

 

I have no need for an Al Davis track star who can’t play the sport, but one more legit guy who scares the D deep would be awesome. 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

9 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

A good number of our fans (including myself) are expecting a post June 1st trade for a WR.  This WR should be of at least the quality of the expected 2024 Diggs.  Listed below are who I feel are the top contenders:

 

1.  DK Metcalf - rumored to be on the market, salary $13M, age 27.  Big, fast, would be great addition.

2.  B Aiyuk - previously rumored to be on the market and would make sense because SF has a lot of high priced WRs and drafted one in Round 1.  Salary $14M, age 26.  Downside is looking for big payday.

3.  D Hopkins - Tenn has glut of WRs.  Salary around $13M (maybe less based on how the $8M salary + $4M roster bonus is distributed).  age 32.

4.  D Adams - Raiders are going to stink and have no QB,  Adams contract is such that this looks like his last year w $44M next year.  Salary $17M, age 32.

 

Dark Horse candidates

5.  DJ Moore - former Carolina pick, salary $16M, age 27

6.  C Kupp - salary $15M, age 31

7.  C Godwin - salary $20M, age 28

 

The combination of draft capital and salary needed to be given for each listed WR makes is hard to figure out which way to go.  Lets hope Beane makes one happen.

 

I meant to respond to your other post on my FA WR thread and forgot. So I'll just do it here.

 

Your list is 95% made up of guys we either won't be able to afford, will require an amount of compensation in picks and money that I don't see Beane doing at this stage in the Offseason, and/or won't be being traded.

 

For the millionth time, Moore isn't going anywhere. They gave up a fair amount to get him just a season ago and he's produced. Allen works predominantly out of the Slot. They'll have Moore and Odunze on the Outside with Allen in the slot, Allen working in on the Outside when either needs to sub out. They don't really have anything underneath those 3 guys. They knew what they were doing acquiring all 3 over the past two seasons. 

 

Hopkins is the most likely to be acquired from a financial standpoint. But like the Bears and Moore, I don't see them moving him for many of the same reasons. They acquired him just last year when Burks underachieved expectations. They hoped with Hopkins on the other side, he'd take a step forward. Instead, he took a step backwards. Realizing they're nowhere with Burks, they signed Ridley to remove him from the signing lineup. The addition of Boyd does nothing to alter Ridley and Hopkins on the Outside. He's a PURE Slot. They'll have Ridley and Hopkins on the Outside and Boyd Inside. I see no way they're going to move out Hopkins and put Burks back in the Starting Lineup, following last season. If they move anyone, it would be Burks.

 

8 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Common misconception.  The Bills get $10M Tre money June 1st, also potential Josh restructure money. 

 

If you look at the salary aspects, none of those seem bad, it is the future money where the expense will be, and the Bills have room in the future.

 

You're ignoring expenses we have that are unavoidable.

 

Counting what we have left and the money that's coming from Tre - we'll have about 12. But half or more of that is going to go to paying for our Draft Picks, paying for the Practice Squad, and a little left for in season spending.

 

You keep mentioning restructuring Josh for a second time in the same offseason. I don't see that happening. He's never restructured someone twice in the same offseason. I'm not sure why he chose to not restructure the full amount he could, but there was a reason for it. If he was going to squeeze more out of his deal for this offseason, he'd have done it then.

 

As for other cap saving measures, we've done literally all we could do in terms of potential releases, extension, and restructures already. Save for just two possibilities. A restructure to Oliver and a restructure to Milano. Those moves won't be nearly enough to take on most of your list and pay for the unavoidable expenses we have.

 

This is why I was looking at the FA market. I agree we could use someone bigger from your list. But I don't see us being able to pull it off and more importantly, I don't see Beane doing what it would take in giving up premium Draft Picks, restructuring deals he's already done this offseason, AND paying someone a massive long term deal at the numbers they're being done for this year.

 

If we are to make a move, at all, I see it either being a Free Agent or someone more like this on a trade that would require far less to pull off:

 

In regards to your last reply to me on the other thread, identifying that it's unlikely to practically impossible to acquire a major target doesn't mean I don't think we need it. Nor does saying it's that or nothing make it more likely to happen or that other options couldn't provide an upgrade from what we have on the Outside to start the season.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

 

Yep giving up a day 3 pick for one of those types I don't rule out. Just not sure if they move the dial particularly for the team. Meyers would be my favourite from that list.

[BillsFanForever19]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep giving up a day 3 pick for one of those types I don't rule out. Just not sure if they move the dial particularly for the team. Meyers would be my favourite from that list.

 

Slayton is intriguing. Speedy, young, and produced over 700 yards in back to back season with less than stellar QB play.

 

If the options are starting Hollins, Shorter, and/or Claypool on the Outside to start the season or longer or acquiring a Michael Thomas or MVS in FA or a Tyler Lockett, Darius Slayton, or Jacobi Myers via Trade - I'll take the latter 6 days a week and twice on Sundays.

Edited May 14 by BillsFanForever19

[NeverOutNick]

10 hours ago, DCofNC said:

I’m almost sure they won’t trade for anyone of those guys.   Money, picks, etc all make it not worth it and to be honest every one of them is a concern in one shape or another.   They SHOULD have just inked D-Hop last year, but you don’t go wasting a draft pick to make up for it, unless it’s unbelievably low, like a 4th or less.

DK is not a true 1, he’s a great compliment, but he’s the same thing whoever gets to be disappointed with Higgins next year is getting.  DJ Moore, also not a true Alpha, nor is Aiyuk.  Any of them make the team better, but they are absolutely not worth the draft capital AND the big contract to eat that much cap space. 

I actually agree with most everything you said, especially that we should’ve just inked Dhop last year. If we did we may have been talking about our 2nd SB adventure this year. 
 

I also agree with you analysis on DK and DJ Moore but Aiyuk I’m not sure I agree. I wasn’t a huge believer in him early on but the more I watch him, the more I think he could be a true #1. I don’t want to pay him the insane contract he’ll get though. 
 

Moore and Dk aren’t #1 WRs but they are what we are missing most to our offense in great vertical threats. But again I wouldn’t pay them WR1 money. If we could get them for the year without renewing their contract I think we could win it all. 
 

Dhop or Adams would be luxuries I’d love to have and probably wouldn’t break the bank because of their age. They’re still super clutch in big moments though so sign me up even though I can’t see Beane pulling the trigger. 
 

This was a great draft class to get a deep threat or 2 even late but it’s looking like Beane is rolling the dice that one of Hamler, Claypool or the already been there done that Isabella will be that guy  

 

If we are going to take a chance on a low risk trade to help with our glaring vertical need I could see it being DKs best bud Lockett

Edited May 14 by NeverOutNick

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

I like your thinking and I'm starting to come around to the idea that Coleman might eventually turn into a stud.  I don't think it will be right away, but I like his ceiling.  He's fluid and you can just see he's a naturally gifted athlete.

 

What sucks if that unless Beane makes another move, "eventually" isn't soon enough. The way we've built this roster, Coleman and Hollins are the only two guys you look at as true outside WRs (and not everybody agrees that Coleman is one). So he's going to be forced into a big role before he has a chance to refine his skillset. As someone that loved the prospect before the Bills took him and had him as my #1 Bills target after the top three, even I know he needs time to refine his skillset. I love who he has the potential to become, not who he is on day one. The expectations are going to be too high because the fanbase is looking at him as Diggs' replacement and that's really just not fair to him.