Shakir starter or complement piece?

[NoSaint]

9 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

The Bills didn't have a classic #1 since week 6 last year, in terms of performance.  I know Diggs commanded attention but I think we're ready for this.

the only downside is Josh took on covering a lot of that deficit down the stretch

 

which makes this a tough discussion. We could put weo, doc and Shakir out there at wr and probably field something better than several teams because we have Josh…. But is it a winner in January? 

[NeverOutNick]

Honestly looking back at the moves this offseason at WR I’m still confused on the direction. I totally understand letting Gabe walk and I get Diggs needed to be traded for some value and this was the last opportunity to get high compensation in return for him. The pre-draft acquisition of Curtis Samuel doesn’t fill either hole our 2 WRs filled. In fact it makes it a more crowded room at what our 2 best remaining “WRs” do in Shakir and Kincaid, eating up the middle of the field and working the slot. Samuel is a fine player but he’s never been the best WR on his own team and for all his speed he’s not a great deep threat because he doesn’t track the ball very well. He’s going to be used well under Brady but still a head scratching start to our reworked WR room when you did have a boundary vertical threat like Hollywood brown available and multiple receivers in the upcoming draft to fill that role. Next we go into the draft still not having any proven outside threats. We grab maybe the guy with the best hands in this draft but even though he’s a heck of an athlete and person at best he’s an upgrade over Gabe Davis who doesn’t have Gabe’s vertical game. We are all happy with the move during the draft and think we have to be going after one or two more WRs to compete for the other outside spot right? I mean it’s the 2nd round and AD Mitchell and Troy Franklin are still on the board…Day 2 goes by and man we missed on Mitchell but I get it McD is the coach and he wanted to load up on D but it’s ok because tomorrow we can get Franklin  or Walker who both show great burst off the line and work the intermediate and long game very well. Whoa whoa what’s going on here a RB run, don’t do it Beane. Well ok he looks like he could be really good and even though we missed out on Mitchell and Walker there are still some speedsters left in Ainais Smith, Malik Washington and man that Bub Means guy looks like he has potential as an outside big bodied deep threat. Oh well at least he looks like a starting caliber center that was good value, wait we traded our 5th rounder for next years 4th but the WRs…LB and pass rusher 🤦🏻‍♂️…welp we’ve got a couple late picks maybe to take a chance on Jerry’s kid ooph maybe those linemen will develop. 
 

Sorry for the run on but got caught up lol. I wouldn’t have taken this same approach in giving Josh every opportunity to crush it this year in a draft class loaded with potential at WR. At the very least I would’ve given more competition to outside WR instead of going with a bunch of retreads that never were in the NFL (Claypool, Hollins, Shrever, Isabella, Hamler). I hope one of those guys works out to play opposite of Coleman (my money is on Hamler) while Shakir, Samuel and Kincaid eat up the middle of the field but I am skeptical in the direction they went in the receiver room this offseason.

Edited May 12 by NeverOutNick

[Maine-iac]

I think Shakir might be the hardest receiver to stop in terms of game plan against us.  He can play outside or slot so it's harder to just line up and jam him or put your best corner on him.  If you are giving him that much attention that's where Kincaid and the other pass catchers have to win.  I'm hoping he'll be Beasley with wheels.  I'm also hoping they continue to run the ball like they did last year.

[Maine-iac]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

the only downside is Josh took on covering a lot of that deficit down the stretch

 

which makes this a tough discussion. We could put weo, doc and Shakir out there at wr and probably field something better than several teams because we have Josh…. But is it a winner in January? 

As good a group of pass catchers as we had this January (maybe better) and we were a few defensive injuries and a struggling kicker away from beating the Chiefs.  A team that speads the ball around is harder to stop.  I'm with you on protecting Allen a little bit.  I would like to see a decent short yardage back (someone over 220lbs) with some vision to make goal line less about Josh smashing it in.

[Jimmy Harris 69]

There will be a significant contribution from Isabella, Shorter, Hamler or Hollins. The first three have speed to stretch the field. Even if we found 80 catches of the 14 to 15 yd average in that group it would be hugely impactful . Hollins is the kind of insurance policy the Bills love in a veteran. Josh Allen could deliver Mack Hollins to the land of the living career-wise. These four receivers are the ones we are underestimating in our projections for this year. It just takes one to have a breakout year and make everybody forget about the second receiver “we should have drafted”. We don’t see these guys practice nor can we appreciate what the bills know and believe. I love surprises. We will see some in 24! Samuel, Shakier, Kincaid and Cook will catch a lot of balls. Davis and Knox will contribute significantly. The Bills’ offense will be top seven—-again. Happy Muthers Day!

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

I really want to see like 5 players all over 90 targets in this offense. That would be awesome. Kincaid, Shakir, Samuel and Coleman I think can all get 90+ targets. Cook and Ray Ray Davis combine for 90 targets. That puts the Bills offense at 450+ targets, likely around 500 targets as a few of those players mentioned will be in the 100 - 110 target range . Allen has averaged 609 targets the last three seasons. So then we have about another 100 targets left over the remaining players on the roster. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, NeverOutNick said:

Honestly looking back at the moves this offseason at WR I’m still confused on the direction. I totally understand letting Gabe walk and I get Diggs needed to be traded for some value and this was the last opportunity to get high compensation in return for him. The pre-draft acquisition of Curtis Samuel doesn’t fill either hole our 2 WRs filled. In fact it makes it a more crowded room at what our 2 best remaining “WRs” do in Shakir and Kincaid, eating up the middle of the field and working the slot. Samuel is a fine player but he’s never been the best WR on his own team and for all his speed he’s not a great deep threat because he doesn’t track the ball very well. He’s going to be used well under Brady but still a head scratching start to our reworked WR room when you did have a boundary vertical threat like Hollywood brown available and multiple receivers in the upcoming draft to fill that role. Next we go into the draft still not having any proven outside threats. We grab maybe the guy with the best hands in this draft but even though he’s a heck of an athlete and person at best he’s an upgrade over Gabe Davis who doesn’t have Gabe’s vertical game. We are all happy with the move during the draft and think we have to be going after one or two more WRs to compete for the other outside spot right? I mean it’s the 2nd round and AD Mitchell and Troy Franklin are still on the board…Day 2 goes by and man we missed on Mitchell but I get it McD is the coach and he wanted to load up on D but it’s ok because tomorrow we can get Franklin  or Walker who both show great burst off the line and work the intermediate and long game very well. Whoa whoa what’s going on here a RB run, don’t do it Beane. Well ok he looks like he could be really good and even though we missed out on Mitchell and Walker there are still some speedsters left in Ainais Smith, Malik Washington and man that Bub Means guy looks like he has potential as an outside big bodied deep threat. Oh well at least he looks like a starting caliber center that was good value, wait we traded our 5th rounder for next years 4th but the WRs…LB and pass rusher 🤦🏻‍♂️…welp we’ve got a couple late picks maybe to take a chance on Jerry’s kid ooph maybe those linemen will develop. 
 

 

Perhaps Justin Shorter is your answer to the day three WR's you wanted the team to draft?

[NeverOutNick]

1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Perhaps Justin Shorter is your answer to the day three WR's you wanted the team to draft?

I honestly don’t think Justin Shorter would’ve been drafted at all in this years class of WRs. I’ve said it multiple times, the guy looks like he’s built to be an NFL WR but body catches everything, can’t get separation and is clunky in his route running. Hopefully he turns into the phenom he was projected to be coming out of HS but outside of Beane trying to make a statement that he’s keeping his 5th round WR from last year, I don’t see him making the team 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

19 minutes ago, NeverOutNick said:

I honestly don’t think Justin Shorter would’ve been drafted at all in this years class of WRs. I’ve said it multiple times, the guy looks like he’s built to be an NFL WR but body catches everything, can’t get separation and is clunky in his route running. Hopefully he turns into the phenom he was projected to be coming out of HS but outside of Beane trying to make a statement that he’s keeping his 5th round WR from last year, I don’t see him making the team 

 

With all due respect you have made a lot of predictions on WR's in the draft that were far off to say the least. Not saying you are any different than all of us in that regard but that nobody knows much of anything in terms of how a draft will play out. 

 

The history of the Bills shows that they have gotten production from WR's in that early day 2 range. Shorter is behind both thus far having not gotten any action as rookie but we will see. I agree he might not make the 53 and find himself on the practice squad. But who knows.

[NeverOutNick]

4 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

With all due respect you have made a lot of predictions on WR's in the draft that were far off to say the least. Not saying you are any different than all of us in that regard but that nobody knows much of anything in terms of how a draft will play out. 

 

The history of the Bills shows that they have gotten production from WR's in that early day 2 range. Shorter is behind both thus far having not gotten any action as rookie but we will see. I agree he might not make the 53 and find himself on the practice squad. But who knows.

Proof? Most of my analysis is pretty on point. Last year I told all the doubters that Zay Flowers was the best WR in this class

[shane nelson]

He has earned the right to start!! 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 minutes ago, NeverOutNick said:

Proof? Most of my analysis is pretty on point. Last year I told all the doubters that Zay Flowers was the best WR in this class

 

Troy Franklin and Brendan Rice this year are two. So when you say you doubt Justin Shorter would have been drafted this year, I'm sorry I don't put a lot of stock into that opinion. 

[White Linen]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

the only downside is Josh took on covering a lot of that deficit down the stretch

 

which makes this a tough discussion. We could put weo, doc and Shakir out there at wr and probably field something better than several teams because we have Josh…. But is it a winner in January? 

 

I suppose it is really comes down to what you think of our current group.  I think we have a real chance to be better.  My opinion goes against the grain because I'm a big believer in team harmony and I think more of this years group than most.  IMO for Buffalo, it will need to be, that 20xx team just came together. 

 

Diggs became a problem. Gabe was big game Gabe wish he could.  

 

I really like Samuel and think he's better than anyone the Bills have had with Josh, not named Stefon.  We're afraid to say it but Kincaid looks like an NFL star.  Keon and Shakir should contribute nicely in specific roles / routes / situations.  If Claypool wakes up, he's talented enough, to be a guy can have nice games and remind everyone. 

 

[MasterStrategist]

2 hours ago, NeverOutNick said:

Honestly looking back at the moves this offseason at WR I’m still confused on the direction. I totally understand letting Gabe walk and I get Diggs needed to be traded for some value and this was the last opportunity to get high compensation in return for him. The pre-draft acquisition of Curtis Samuel doesn’t fill either hole our 2 WRs filled. In fact it makes it a more crowded room at what our 2 best remaining “WRs” do in Shakir and Kincaid, eating up the middle of the field and working the slot. Samuel is a fine player but he’s never been the best WR on his own team and for all his speed he’s not a great deep threat because he doesn’t track the ball very well. He’s going to be used well under Brady but still a head scratching start to our reworked WR room when you did have a boundary vertical threat like Hollywood brown available and multiple receivers in the upcoming draft to fill that role. Next we go into the draft still not having any proven outside threats. We grab maybe the guy with the best hands in this draft but even though he’s a heck of an athlete and person at best he’s an upgrade over Gabe Davis who doesn’t have Gabe’s vertical game. We are all happy with the move during the draft and think we have to be going after one or two more WRs to compete for the other outside spot right? I mean it’s the 2nd round and AD Mitchell and Troy Franklin are still on the board…Day 2 goes by and man we missed on Mitchell but I get it McD is the coach and he wanted to load up on D but it’s ok because tomorrow we can get Franklin  or Walker who both show great burst off the line and work the intermediate and long game very well. Whoa whoa what’s going on here a RB run, don’t do it Beane. Well ok he looks like he could be really good and even though we missed out on Mitchell and Walker there are still some speedsters left in Ainais Smith, Malik Washington and man that Bub Means guy looks like he has potential as an outside big bodied deep threat. Oh well at least he looks like a starting caliber center that was good value, wait we traded our 5th rounder for next years 4th but the WRs…LB and pass rusher 🤦🏻‍♂️…welp we’ve got a couple late picks maybe to take a chance on Jerry’s kid ooph maybe those linemen will develop. 
 

Sorry for the run on but got caught up lol. I wouldn’t have taken this same approach in giving Josh every opportunity to crush it this year in a draft class loaded with potential at WR. At the very least I would’ve given more competition to outside WR instead of going with a bunch of retreads that never were in the NFL (Claypool, Hollins, Shrever, Isabella, Hamler). I hope one of those guys works out to play opposite of Coleman (my money is on Hamler) while Shakir, Samuel and Kincaid eat up the middle of the field but I am skeptical in the direction they went in the receiver room this offseason.

Brady is counting on an intermediate passing game that is more efficient, and a solid rushing attack.  

 

We will see if it works, but the plan isn't confusing.  Just might not be what you want to see.

 

Coleman/Shakir/Samuel will be our main WR targets, plain and simple.  Some combo of Hollins/Shorter/Hamler/Claypool will get some outside snaps and likely less than 40-45 targets.  Our downfield passing game is a concern of mine too.

 

But, once Brady took over they're focus down the stretch LY was short/intermediate passing.  Occasional "scramble" play hitting Gabe deep.  Coleman can fill that role at minimum.

 

We are counting on YAC from guys like Samuel/Shakir, Coleman to an extent.  Coleman to be our 50/50 downfield guy, but also someone who wins underneath/intermediate with his quick release and strength at break of route.  Kincaid will be used in a variety of ways, his role expanded at end of year.  Add in Cook/Davis and Knox as a safety valve.

 

This is just a completely group of players.  We have more diversity than LY, IMO, in terms of getting everyone involved at least at the 1st two levels of passing attack.

[YattaOkasan]

19 hours ago, Bills Bud said:

I don’t think he is going to be as good and consistent as people think. He only had a few decent games, and now teams have tape on him so it’s only going to get tougher.

Considering he didn’t get more than 6 targets in any game having a few 100 yard games is pretty good. Would also note he had a big clutch factor with big time TDs. If DCs wanna throw more coverage his way then yes they will do well against him while losing against other WRs. I think it’s gonna be hard to game plan against us cause we have pretty good man separators in Kincaid Samuel shakir that can all also work against zone. I think 800 yards on 50% more targets. So slightly less efficient but still very efficient. Do you think it’ll be less than that?

1 hour ago, Maine-iac said:

As good a group of pass catchers as we had this January (maybe better) and we were a few defensive injuries and a struggling kicker away from beating the Chiefs.  A team that speads the ball around is harder to stop.  I'm with you on protecting Allen a little bit.  I would like to see a decent short yardage back (someone over 220lbs) with some vision to make goal line less about Josh smashing it in.

Expanding on this I think 2020 was Josh’s best year and while we had the emergence of diggs we also spread the ball around a lot. I think we tied the record for number of players with a receiving TD. I’m very excited if that can be replicated 

3 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Brady is counting on an intermediate passing game that is more efficient, and a solid rushing attack.  

 

We will see if it works, but the plan isn't confusing.  Just might not be what you want to see.

 

Coleman/Shakir/Samuel will be our main WR targets, plain and simple.  Some combo of Hollins/Shorter/Hamler/Claypool will get some outside snaps and likely less than 40-45 targets.  Our downfield passing game is a concern of mine too.

 

But, once Brady took over they're focus down the stretch LY was short/intermediate passing.  Occasional "scramble" play hitting Gabe deep.  Coleman can fill that role at minimum.

 

We are counting on YAC from guys like Samuel/Shakir, Coleman to an extent.  Coleman to be our 50/50 downfield guy, but also someone who wins underneath/intermediate with his quick release and strength at break of route.  Kincaid will be used in a variety of ways, his role expanded at end of year.  Add in Cook/Davis and Knox as a safety valve.

 

This is just a completely group of players.  We have more diversity than LY, IMO, in terms of getting everyone involved at least at the 1st two levels of passing attack.

Would add that Coleman in the screen game, which Brady called twice as often as Dorsey, is gonna be a big piece. Dude can block and get up field quick. 

[Maine-iac]

Not Shakir related but looking at the roster just realized that Claypool is huge.  He is literally as big as Kincaid.  We have a lot of 6' 4" WR's but 238 lbs is a big guy on the outside.

[NeverOutNick]

1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Troy Franklin and Brendan Rice this year are two. So when you say you doubt Justin Shorter would have been drafted this year, I'm sorry I don't put a lot of stock into that opinion. 

Did Troy Franklin play a down in the NFL yet? I don’t take back a word I said about him, dude is going to be a way better WR than shorter in the NFL, I’d bet you $100 on that right now. And Brendan Rice was rated as my 16th best WR and even in my write up I stated it’s more about what he can be (Jerrys son is hard to bet against) and he runs a lot of off script routes probably due to his QBs play. I definitely would’ve taken him over Shorter AND Rice fell to the 7th (which proves my point that shorter wouldn’t have been drafted in this class). So “no disrespect” but until Shorter touches the field and proves he’s worth anything more than camp fodder, I’ll stick to my opinion and track record of knowing what works at WR in the NFL. 
 

Hopefully I’m wrong on Shorter since he’s a Bill (for now)
 

BTW proof would be finding players I’ve missed on 2-5 years ago that haven’t panned out. Yes we all miss here and there but more often than not, I’m very good at analyzing WR talent while sitting on my couch lol…I bet alot of us wish we could sit in and talk to these kids in person like real scouts. And that could be a reason some of these guys slip. 
 

If you want to plant your flag in Shorter I’ll come back here and apologize if I’m wrong. And maybe you can do the same for me when Franklin lights it up 🤔.

 

I’ll say it again, outside of Beane pushing an agenda with not owning up on a missed pick (and who really cares Beane, he’s just a 5th rounder, not like you could’ve had Nakua lol jk it’s really not that big of deal to miss on late rounders).
 

I hope he lets the 6 best WRs have an even shot to make the roster (Coleman, Samuel and Shakir are the only locks). If Beane is true to letting all chaos break loose and we get the open competition, I believe if healthy, Hamler will be #4 because he’s got the speed we’re lacking and has the talent to live up to his second round grade. I have no idea who the other 2 will be. Because the Bills prioritize special teams and his past work ethic is awful, I’d bet claypool is on the outside looking (even if he’s a great talent and I’m pulling for him). I want to like Isabella but at this point he seems like he’s a great practice player that doesn’t do much to move the needle on gameday. I’ve always liked Cephus as a possession WR with good hands coming out of Wisconsin but he’s slow and we’ve got a lot of that already. The last spot will be that special teams gunner/outside WR guy and that probably means Hollins/Shavers/Shorter.

 

Just my opinion 😉 

[NeverOutNick]

32 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Brady is counting on an intermediate passing game that is more efficient, and a solid rushing attack.  

 

We will see if it works, but the plan isn't confusing.  Just might not be what you want to see.

 

Coleman/Shakir/Samuel will be our main WR targets, plain and simple.  Some combo of Hollins/Shorter/Hamler/Claypool will get some outside snaps and likely less than 40-45 targets.  Our downfield passing game is a concern of mine too.

 

But, once Brady took over they're focus down the stretch LY was short/intermediate passing.  Occasional "scramble" play hitting Gabe deep.  Coleman can fill that role at minimum.

 

We are counting on YAC from guys like Samuel/Shakir, Coleman to an extent.  Coleman to be our 50/50 downfield guy, but also someone who wins underneath/intermediate with his quick release and strength at break of route.  Kincaid will be used in a variety of ways, his role expanded at end of year.  Add in Cook/Davis and Knox as a safety valve.

 

This is just a completely group of players.  We have more diversity than LY, IMO, in terms of getting everyone involved at least at the 1st two levels of passing attack.

All great points. I just hope defenses don’t play us accordingly to what we’re putting out on the field. Just feels like we’re shrinking the field a bit. Hope Hamler stays healthy and is on the field a lot to keep the D honest. 

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, Maine-iac said:

As good a group of pass catchers as we had this January (maybe better) and we were a few defensive injuries and a struggling kicker away from beating the Chiefs.  A team that speads the ball around is harder to stop.  I'm with you on protecting Allen a little bit.  I would like to see a decent short yardage back (someone over 220lbs) with some vision to make goal line less about Josh smashing it in.

Davis is a suitable goal line and short yardage back.  I dont think you understand how stalky 5’8 215 is.   

[Mat68]

57 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Considering he didn’t get more than 6 targets in any game having a few 100 yard games is pretty good. Would also note he had a big clutch factor with big time TDs. If DCs wanna throw more coverage his way then yes they will do well against him while losing against other WRs. I think it’s gonna be hard to game plan against us cause we have pretty good man separators in Kincaid Samuel shakir that can all also work against zone. I think 800 yards on 50% more targets. So slightly less efficient but still very efficient. Do you think it’ll be less than that?

Expanding on this I think 2020 was Josh’s best year and while we had the emergence of diggs we also spread the ball around a lot. I think we tied the record for number of players with a receiving TD. I’m very excited if that can be replicated 

Would add that Coleman in the screen game, which Brady called twice as often as Dorsey, is gonna be a big piece. Dude can block and get up field quick. 

Cook , Shakir, and Samuel are all good options for the screen fame too.