2015 Carolina Panthers: Have we ever been as good?

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 5/9/2024 at 5:42 PM, Paup 1995MVP said:

That’s a lazy opinion.  Everyone can run at the skill positions in the NFL. Do you think Shakir is slow?  Ask the Steelers what they think of his movement. Samuel is fast also.  James Cook is fast.  Hell Josh Allen is fast at QB.  We let Poyer and Hyde go because  they got older and slower.  Our LB’s can all move.  
 

And don’t  forget football is a physical game.  You have to be tough in the trenches.  That is how Beane has built the team.  Good on both lines.  Watch the way defenses play now.  Teams keep their DB’s back to take away the deep ball.  No one is overly successful throwing the deep ball now including Mahomes.   It’s a lot of short and intermediate passing, and hope for good YAC.  That’s why Kincaid will feast this year.  And btw he can run also.  

 

THE Bills philosophy has been super solid the past 5 years.  We need to stay healthier on defense this year.  And peak as the season heads toward the playoffs.  Getting rid of Diggs will be good for the offense.  He became a cancer last season and sucked in the playoffs all 4 years.  
 

i am excited about the team with a lot of new players.  As a fan going through the offseason and heading into a new season, all you want and hope for is a solid chance to win.  Beane gives us that every year.  How it goes once the season starts and plays out remains to be seen.  But I love the organization and how we build a team every year.  

Of course everyone can run at the skill positions in the NFL just like every Olineman can block or defensive players can tackle. Obviously there's some major context that goes into that. Calling Samuel a speedster when yds per catch is 10.7 for his career is misjudgement by you. He's a career possession WR never showed that speed your we're talking about which is game breaking speed. Shakir is average speed himself is that the end all be all no it's not but it doesn't mean the Bills are not lacking speed either because they definitely are. 

 

Most fans, pundits ,media and absolutely most coaches and GMs will agree the Bills don't have a blazer on this team. That in my opinion is doing a major disservice to Josh Allen. You say today's NFL teams are taking away the deep ball I agree with that but u need speed for teams to employ those deep safety shells and if u don't have it teams will use different schemes on defense taking away other things you do well. 

[Mister Defense]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

So you feel Buffalo has been better? Not sure why that triggered you so greatly. You yourself just said at the very most 3 position groups are better out of what? 8 total? The furthest we have gone is not as far as they went. Now we enter rebuilding and sure, we can possibly hang another AFC east banner this year but is that because we built a better team or as you said we have gotten much better contributions at QB? How much does it even matter? Who cares about the AFC east titles if we don’t have the talent to go further. 

 

Outside that MVP year Newton did not perform like a Top 3 QB and just because you give this regime credit for Josh consistently doing so the reason we consistently fall short is because we cant build a better all around team. At least that’s what it appears to me.
 

I mean, when you look at the positional groupings of a team many people including yourself have basically called trash, then you consider that we are not better than the trash in the majority of those groupings. Hmmm. Maybe that is why I made this post. For all our success I was surprised that those Carolina squads had more talent. Which to me says a lot about the perceived success of this regime and the direction it’s going. This is not the first rodeo for any of them and the face that in many ways it looks the same or worse doesn’t get me all hot and bothered. 

 

Well, we will continue disagreeing. But I will take my Bills any day over your 2015 Panthers.

 

I can say that the Panthers had some high level parts in their team and also that the Bills team is superior--as they have clearly demonstrated that year after year after year.

 

I was not comprehensive in my first post--as I believe this Bills' secondary has been superior as well. Ditto for the coaching.

 

You don't address the 'one hit wonder' truth, the Panthers' poor record in the year before and year after--but of course not, as the entire point of the post is to trash the current Bills' leadership.  That failure in itself completely undermines your main point--as my team's talent has been dramatically better at winning football games than your team's, that Panthers team, the one you emphatically state had "MUCH" better talent.  If your focus and main point of your post were accurate  that would  not be the case, as the Panthers, not the Bills, would have the far superior record. In fact, and as you know, the Bills' record in that span is MUCH better.

 

How can  your far superior,  dramatically more talented team,  so not even close in your eyes, be soo good, yet still suck so badly the year before that and the year after??  Most of the players you heap praise on were on those teams too.

 

If you think that kind of Panthers team is where it is at, and that the Bills team we have seen over the last years is not even close, go ahead and think that. Even if it is clearly wrong as the actual reality of the situation undermines that comically bizarre notion.

 

You could have that Panthers team--I will take the Bills of the last 5 years any day.  And, even with the big turnover this off season, the grrreat job this front office and coaching staff have done give me confidence that they could be a legitimate contender once again.  While your far superior Panthers have one playoff  appearance since your team's seminal season...

 

 

Edited May 11 by Mister Defense

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Well, we will continue disagreeing. But I will take my Bills any day over your 2015 Panthers.

 

I can say that the Panthers had some high level parts in their team and also that the Bills team is superior--as they have clearly demonstrated that year after year after year.

 

And I was not comprehensive in my first post--as believe this Bills' secondary has been superior as well. Ditto for the coaching.

 

You don't address the 'one hit wonder' truth, the Panthers' poor record in the year before and year after--but of course not, as the entire point of the post is to trash the current Bills' leadership.  That failure in itself completely undermines your main point--as my team's talent has been dramatically better at winning football games than your team's, the Panthers, the one you emphatically state had "MUCH" better talent.  If your focus and main point of your post were accurate  that would  not be the case, as the Panthers, not the Bills, would have the far superior record. In fact, and as you know, the Bills' record in that span is MUCH better.

 

How can  your far superior,  dramatically more talented team,  so not even close in your eyes,  be soo good, yet still suck so badly the year before that and the year after??  Most of the players you heap praise on were on those teams too.

 

If you think that kind of Panthers team is where it is at, and that the Bills team we have seen over the last years is not even close, go ahead and think that. Even if it is clearly wrong as the actual reality of the situation undermines that comically bizarre notion.

 

You could have that Panthers team--I will take the Bills of the last 5 years any day.  And, even with the big turnover this off season, the grrreat job this front office and coaching staff have done give me confidence that they could be a legitimate contender once again.  While your far superior Panthers have one playoff  appearance since your team's seminal season...

 

 

QB play, it sort of takes that to be good right?

 

Lets go win another AFC east crown!

[Mister Defense]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

QB play, it sort of takes that to be good right?

 

Lets go win another AFC east crown!

 

Yup, yet gain not responding to the reality I present.

 

Go Panthers!!

 

Good luck!

 

Lol

[Rampant Buffalo]

3 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Disagree with the #2. The goal now is to win a Super Bowl. That's because Diggs helped Allen become the QB he is today. You can't even really put a price tag on value like that. Diggs helped the Bills become relevant year after year after two decades on being non-relevant. I find some value in that as well. Agree with your point of Diggs being a dud in the playoffs for the Bills. But that alone does not make the Diggs trade one that did not workout. 

 

I think folks also don't put enough stock into the drafting of Kincaid. The most recent Super Bowl dynasties futured TE's as their #1 skill player. Coincidence? In today's game an elite TE can put you over the top. Perhaps because they are hard so rare? Elite WR's grow on trees it seems and can even be traded for. Every team can have an elite WR so having one doesn't do enough to separate a team from the rest of the pack of good teams. 

 

I figured I'd get some pushback on that. When I evaluate the Diggs trade, I look at three things

 

1. Duration: low. He was here four years.

2. Quality of regular season play: high

3. Quality of postseason play: low

 

I get what you're saying about Diggs helping Allen become the QB he is today. But I think Allen would be fundamentally the same guy he is today anyway, so long as the Bills made a reasonable effort to set him up for success.

[Mikie2times]

13 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Yup, yet gain not responding to the reality I present.

 

Go Panthers!!

 

Good luck!

 

Lol

This is boring, but you clearly need it spelled out 

 

Josh Allen QBR ranks

2023 3rd

2022 2nd

2021 6th

2020 3rd

 

Cam Newton QBR Ranks

2014 18th

2015 11th

2016 25th

2017 19th

 

I got you most of the way. How about you finish this off and let me know how often teams makes the playoffs with a top 5 QBR vs 15 QBR or lower?

 

I know it is hard for you to understand that a team with less talent can actually perform more consistently but it's actually rather common when you have top 5 QB.  If you want to give Beane all the credit for landing an elite QB and supporting him with nothing that is ok. If you want to celebrate being champions over the Miami Dolphins each year that is ok as well. I think most of us would like to actually win a SB and for that to happen we need more talent than a "crappy Panthers team" that couldn't even win a Super Bowl or sustain success who only played scrubs. 😂 

 

 

Edited May 11 by Mikie2times

[Mister Defense]

19 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

This is boring, but you clearly need it spelled out 

 

Josh Allen QBR ranks

2023 3rd

2022 2nd

2021 6th

2020 3rd

 

Cam Newton QBR Ranks

2014 18th

2015 11th

2016 25th

2017 19th

 

I got you most of the way. How about you finish this off and let me know how often teams makes the playoffs with a top 5 QBR vs 15 QBR or lower?

 

I know it is hard for you to understand that a team with less talent can actually perform more consistently but it's actually rather common when you have top 5 QB.  If you want to give Beane all the credit for landing an elite QB and supporting him with nothing that is ok. If you want to celebrate being champions over the Miami Dolphins each year that is ok as well. I think most of us would like to actually win a SB and for that to happen we need more talent than a "crappy Panthers team" that couldn't even win a Super Bowl or sustain success who only played scrubs. 😂 

 

 

 

I think you just need to watch some Bills games, as apparently you have not--and do not realize just how talented this team and its coaching have been under your boys, Beane and McD,  and that it s not just Josh Allen.

 

Your OP was not focused on Josh Allen, but on the  MUCH superior talent on your 2015 Panthers compared to the recent Bills' teams.

 

It'd be great for you to answer my question in my previous post: "How can  your far superior,  dramatically more talented team, so not even close in your eyes, be soo good, yet still suck so badly the year before that and the year after??  Most of the players you heap praise on were on those teams too."

 

I hope you can see that it completely undermines your OP, and main point, that you cannot respond--if they were a MUCH more talented team, where did all that amazing talent go the year before and the year after your team's seminal season??

 

You would be calling in the cavalry,  and maybe literally!, if the Bills ever went 5-8 or 6-8-1, yet you want some of that, rather than what we have had here in Buffalo... 

 

I hope you can see how ridiculous that is.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11 by Mister Defense

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

I think you just need to watch some Bills games, as apparently you have not--and do not realize just how talented this team and its coaching have bee under your boys, Beane and McD,  and that is not just Josh Allen.

 

It'd be great for you to answer my question in my previous post: "How can  your far superior,  dramatically more talented team, so not even close in your eyes, be soo good, yet still suck so badly the year before that and the year after??  Most of the players you heap praise on were on those teams too."

 

I hope you can see that it completely undermines your OP, and main point, that you cannot respond--if they were such a far superior talent, team--where did all that amazing talent go the year before and the year after your team's seminal season?? You would be calling in the cavalry,  and maybe literally!, if the Bills ever went 5-8 or 6-8-1, yet are calling for that, rather than what we have here in Buffalo... 

 

 

 

Josh Allen QBR ranks

2023 3rd

2022 2nd

2021 6th

2020 3rd

 

Cam Newton QBR Ranks

2014 18th

2015 11th

2016 25th

2017 19th

[Mister Defense]

18 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Josh Allen QBR ranks

2023 3rd

2022 2nd

2021 6th

2020 3rd

 

Cam Newton QBR Ranks

2014 18th

2015 11th

2016 25th

2017 19th

 

Lol!

 

How  does that quarterback comparison explain what happened to all of that amazing talent on your super talented 2015 Panthers team!?

 

And Cam Newton was the MVP of the NFL in 2015!   So wouldn't that just be the final nail in the coffin for your OP? It rips apart, even more so, your entire premise, point--and responses to the criticism of it, such as the one above. As you are now saying that our talent deprived Bills under McD and Beane were good almost exclusively because of their superior quarterback--but use 2015, the year the Panthers' QB was the MVP of the league, to say that they were a MUCH more talented team than the Bills!

 

I l laughed out lout when I realized that was the case--and then saw the above response, laughed at both the irony and extreme contradiction now clear in your OP and your responses to it.

 

Your OP was farcical at its surface, and much more so in closer examination.

 

Edited May 12 by Mister Defense

[TheyCallMeAndy]

It’s hard to compare a team from nearly a decade ago to a team that hasn’t had a single mini camp yet…

[FireChans]

Our transformation into the 2015 offense is complete.

Big contested catch guy with question marks about ability to separate - Devin Funchess and Keon Coleman

 

Speed guy with horrific hands and 3 names  - Ted Ginn Jr and MVS

 

TE who is elite receiving adjacent - Greg Olsen and Dalton Kincaid

 

Slot WR only with alligator arms - Philly Brown and Khalil Shakir

 

Athletic monster QB who will be forced to put his body on the line to drag the above guys to SB contention - Cam Newton and Josh Allen

 

Beane finally has the offense that was good enough to get embarrassed in the Super Bowl!

[JohnNord]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:19 AM, Mikie2times said:

Dorsey was the QB coach, McD was the defensive coordinator, Beane was Assistant GM. They went to the Super Bowl that year losing to the Broncos.  Looking at the roster two thing concerned me. They seem to be constructed in similar fashion as we have been. Specifically the WR neglect seems pretty apparent in the make up of both teams.  They seem to be MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills we have seen thus far. It's nearly at every position. Beane has had a good amount of time working on our roster. This was a very good Carolina team but I don't like that it appears we have a deficit against them in nearly every position.

 

QB - This was Cams MVP season, but still would rather have Josh

 

Cam Newton

 

 

RB - Both went to the Pro Bowl that year, Stewart was actually a really good back at that time. This is close but nod to Carolina. 

 

Jonathan Stewart 

Mike Tolbert  

 

WR - It's possible our current WR room is better than the one they fielded in 2015 🤢. Ginn was very explosive but nobody had over 750 yards. Our WR units have been better the last few years which is really concerning as far as how Beane views the position. 

 

Ted Ginn Jr

Jerricho Cotchery

Devin Funchess

Corey Brown

 

TE - Olson was an absolute monster. Very high hopes for Kincaid but hard to put him in Olson's class at this stage

 

Greg Olson

 

OL- Two all pros and Michael Oher. Nod to Carolina

 

T Michael Oher

LG Andrew Norwell

C Ryan Kalil

RG Trai Turner

RT Mike Remmers

 

DL - Short was a pro bowler. This was the young version of Star. I would say DL is pretty close.

 

DE  Charles Johnson

DT Star Lotulelei

DT Kawann Short

DE Jared Allen

 

LB - One of the best LB cores of the decade. Not close. 

 

Shaq Thompson

Luke Kuechly

Thomas Davis

 

DB - When we had pre injury Tre and younger Poyer and Hyde we probably get that nod. That unit hasn't been intact for a bit though. 

 

CB Charles Tillman

CB Josh Norman

SS Roman Harper

FS Kurt Coleman

You can definitely some similarities in terms of roster building with both franchises.  I do feel that Beane and McDermott undervalue WR’s and it’s the one position that has been mismanaged.
 

They lost a number of established vets over the past three seasons and rather than re-loading, they simply doubled down on players they had on the roster (McKenzie, Davis etc) which backfired.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

lol I didn’t even see this thread. I made a comment about the 2015 Panthers today.

4 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

You can definitely some similarities in terms of roster building with both franchises.  I do feel that Beane and McDermott undervalue WR’s and it’s the one position that has been mismanaged.
 

They lost a number of established vets over the past three seasons and rather than re-loading, they simply doubled down on players they had on the roster (McKenzie, Davis etc) which backfired.  

The most dominant franchise since 2000 also undervalued WR, NE Patriots.

 

 

[Mikie2times]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

lol I didn’t even see this thread. I made a comment about the 2015 Panthers today.

The most dominant franchise since 2000 also undervalued WR, NE Patriots.

 

 

They did have two pro bowl level TE's for a stretch. One Hall of Fame TE for most the run. When they did finally pursue a stud they produced the greatest offense of all time (somehow not winning the Super Bowl). I think in hindsight that could be viewed as a mistake. If Brady had a Moss like WR for most his career he would have at least a few more rings I would think. 

Edited May 14 by Mikie2times

[JohnNord]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

lol I didn’t even see this thread. I made a comment about the 2015 Panthers today.

The most dominant franchise since 2000 also undervalued WR, NE Patriots.

 

 

Correct but they also had one of the greatest QB’s of all-time.   There’s been two QB’s that have been able to succeed with subpar WR options.   One is Brady, the other is Mahomes.  Both of those two also had elite TE’s for the majority of their career.  
 

Josh has a way to go before he’s on that level.  He should have been given better weapons

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

They did have two pro bowl level TE's for a stretch. One Hall of Fame TE for most the run. When they did finally pursue a stud they produced the greatest offense of all time (somehow not winning the Super Bowl). I think in hindsight that could be viewed as a mistake. If Brady had a Moss like WR for most his career he would have at least a few more rings I would think. 

Adding Moss for almost nothing to a Super Bowl roster wasn’t really fair. But they didn’t win a Super Bowl with Moss.

It’s never bad to have great WRs.