2015 Carolina Panthers: Have we ever been as good?

[PBF81]

47 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   The time to strike is when the opportunity presents itself.

   They caught lightning in a bottle tag at year, all year, till they ran into Denver’s D

 

Well, OK, but one of two good teams they played all season, 1-1.  And Denver's offense was awful, far worse than Arizona's.  Arizona was easily the more complete team.  

 

42 offensive points vice 10?  

 

One win all season against any team that made it past the divisional round is hardly a harbinger of greatness.  

 

12 of their 17 regular season games were against teams 8-8 or worse and with negative point-differentials.  

 

 

[msw2112]

Newton always struck me as a "me first" kind of guy and not a great team guy.  I don't know if he dubbed himself "Superman" but he certainly enjoyed the nickname and liked to draw attention to himself.  He often appeared more interested in his wild hats and fashion than football.  He was a great guy when things were going well, but a jerk when things didn't.  And his failure to dive for that football with the Super Bowl on the line created a lasting image.

 

Josh Allen is very different.  He's a team first guy who will do anything to win.  He would have been the first one in the scrum with a loose football late in the Super Bowl.

 

Both players are very talented, but Allen has been more consistent.

 

Note that my comments about Newton are from what I, as a fan, have observed.  I'm not in the locker room, training room, or huddle, so maybe he's a great teammate and hard worker (that's what Belichick said about him in New England) and I have it all wrong.

[GoBills808]

Just now, FireChans said:

Beane is wistfully remembering the Devin Funchess, Philly Brown, Ted Ginn Jr offense.

100% Cam got the most out of that offense but they had Olsen who was near best in the league at that point and the oline was pretty good iirc

4 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, OK, but one of two good teams they played all season, 1-1.  And Denver's offense was awful, far worse than Arizona's.  Arizona was easily the more complete team.  

 

42 offensive points vice 10?  

 

One win all season against any team that made it past the divisional round is hardly a harbinger of greatness.  

 

12 of their 17 regular season games were against teams 8-8 or worse and with negative point-differentials.  

 

 

they beat the Seahawks who had been to two straight Super Bowls lol

[PBF81]

29 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Seattle, the back the back NFC champions and the 1st overall defense and 4th overall offense “wasn’t tough?”

 

The Denver defense was elite. They also frazzled Brady. They made a lot of good teams look silly.

 

Carolina played the worst offensive game of any team that Denver faced that season.  

 

 

[Simon]

That was a very good team with a tough Front 7 and an outstanding OLine.

They were a QB away from a championship, imo.

 

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

But spending lots of capital on defensive front 7 and not much on wide receivers is Beane's MO. It is the team building ethos he grew up in. I'd like to see him flex too but I'd not sure he is going to. 

 

As a fellow who has always been convinced that your defensive front is the 2nd most impactful position on your team (only superseded by QB), this is arguably my very favorite thing about Beane's philosophy.

I will concede that rule changes have made DLs somewhat less impactful over the last few years, but not enough to significantly lessen their import in the greater scheme of the game.

[PBF81]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

100% Cam got the most out of that offense but they had Olsen who was near best in the league at that point and the oline was pretty good iirc

they beat the Seahawks who had been to two straight Super Bowls lol

 

So did four other teams.  They were 10-6, not 14-2.  

 

Either way, of the argument is that they beat two good teams all season, sure.  It was still one of the easiest schedules of any team in the NFL over two decades.  That's a fact.  

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

 

So did four other teams.  They were 10-6, not 14-2.  

 

Either way, of the argument is that they beat two good teams all season, sure.  It was still one of the easiest schedules of any team in the NFL over two decades.  That's a fact.  

 

 

Yes, that was the running joke that season...the NFL media kept dubbing them the 'worst 3-1 team ever'...then worst '4-1 team ever'...all the way up to the Super Bowl lol

 

you can tell who actually watched them vs people who just looked up their wikipedia page, that was a rugged team

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

You're mis-stating the model there. They clearly value pass-rushing DLs. Rousseau, for one. And for a DT, Oliver rushes very well. They also brought in Von. They value it. It's just that great pass-rushing DEs aren't usually still available where we generally draft.

 

How many first rounders have the Chiefs spent on receivers? They traded up this year, but we got our WR only about five picks later this year. That's not about position value, it's about who each team liked and where they thought they could get them.

 

The Chiefs've used a lot of draft picks on DLs as well. 10 since 2018 out of 48. And five out of 21 in the first three rounds, including three first rounders.

 

This model has worked and is currently outperforming any other model. It's damn sustainable. Even if not with Cam Newton's health going so early.

 

I liked the Rousseau pick and still believe there was great value in signing Miller because a pass-rush is must-have to their scheme.  Oliver, well, he's been real good, but it took to season 4-5 for it to happen.    

 

It's the need to have serious depth on DL that has always been an issue.  They signed numerous DTs to serve as depth as their WR group remained the same or declined.  But it's their "model" and what they do.    

 

The Chiefs have difference maker in Chris Jones, but also  have out-performed Buffalo finding and developing pass rushers from the draft.  It should be alarming the McD-coached Bills really haven't.  

 

As to not being in a position to draft good pass rushers, George Karlafaftis went 30th overall and registered 10.5 sacks last year.  It's a cop-out of Doug Whaley proportions to say they don't draft high enough to obtain good ones. 

 

Point is, their "model" has failed to improve upon the 2020 season.  Period.  They've gone no further than the Divisional Round and if you're not improving, you're regressing.  It's a model which is never challenged inside OBD and that's a problem.  And now they have the cover saying their self-inflicted cap situation is inhibiting which necessitates a "transitional" year.  

[Buffalo Boy]

40 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, OK, but one of two good teams they played all season, 1-1.  And Denver's offense was awful, far worse than Arizona's.  Arizona was easily the more complete team.  

 

42 offensive points vice 10?  

 

One win all season against any team that made it past the divisional round is hardly a harbinger of greatness.  

 

12 of their 17 regular season games were against teams 8-8 or worse and with negative point-differentials.  

 

 

Sure, but they beat bad teams.

   They didn’t lose to The Pats, Or Jets, Or Jags ( a couple years back) or all the other piss poor teams we have continually lost to under McD. 
   They took care of business. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

13 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Dorsey was the QB coach, McD was the defensive coordinator, Beane was Assistant GM. They went to the Super Bowl that year losing to the Broncos.  Looking at the roster two thing concerned me. They seem to be constructed in similar fashion as we have been. Specifically the WR neglect seems pretty apparent in the make up of both teams.  They seem to be MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills we have seen thus far. It's nearly at every position. Beane has had a good amount of time working on our roster. This was a very good Carolina team but I don't like that it appears we have a deficit against them in nearly every position.

 

I think it’s debatable whether or not the 2015 team was better than all of the bills teams we’ve seen since 2020. What’s not debatable is that that 2015 panther team was a one year wonder whereas the team that McDermott and Beane have built here is a team that has lasted as a Super Bowl contender for four seasons and counting now.

 

This current bills team has not made the Super Bowl like the 2015 Panthers, but they’ve also been eliminated three out of the last four years by the current Chiefs Dynasty. I’m not so certain the 2015 Panthers wouldn’t have seen a similar fate in the same circumstance.

The Panthers 15 – 1 season was book ended by two losing seasons.

would you rather a team that was a one year wonder and went to and loss a Super Bowl or a team that’s competed to contend for a Super Bowl every season and winning the most games of any franchise over the current four-year span with the exception of a team that’s currently in the midst of a dynasty?

[HomeskillitMoorman]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The build is very similar to Carolina. Constant resource allocation to the front 7 on defense in FA and the draft. The numbers are staggeringly similar in terms of drafting. 

 

In the TEN drafts where Beane was in a senior role in the Carolina front office (2008-2017) the Panthers had 69 draft picks and spent 20 of them on front 7 on defense. That is 29%. They had 28 picks in that time in the first three rounds and spent 12 of them on the defensive front 7. That is 43%

 

In the SEVEN drafts Beane has been GM in Buffalo (2018-2024) the Bills have had 55 draft picks and spent 14 of them on front 7 on defense. That is 25%. They have had 21 picks in that time in the first three rounds and spent 9 of them on defensive front 7. That is 43% (identical to Carolina). 

 

Is worth saying at this point that defensive front 7 is around 30% of your starters, so those numbers should be seen in that context. But Brandon Beane is building his team the way he witnessed it done in Carolina. He tells us himself he will never apologise for prioritising the defensive front. And he is as good as his word in that regard. 

 

He's as good as his word in spending those resources on the defensive front...not necessarily on making it a strong one. Our pass rush is non-existent in any game that matters. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes, that was the running joke that season...the NFL media kept dubbing them the 'worst 3-1 team ever'...then worst '4-1 team ever'...all the way up to the Super Bowl lol

 

you can tell who actually watched them vs people who just looked up their wikipedia page, that was a rugged team

 

I won't disagree, but let's not lose sight of the greater point, that an easy schedule, and there's zero denying that Carolina had an easy schedule that season, makes for an easier season and when the tough games come up, teams aren't as warn out.  

 

Common sense too.  NE had that arrangement in our crap division throughout Brady's tenure.  

 

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Sure, but they beat bad teams.

   They didn’t lose to The Pats, Or Jets, Or Jags ( a couple years back) or all the other piss poor teams we have continually lost to under McD. 
   They took care of business. 

 

Not arguing that I'm the least.  

 

It's a great guess that by this season's end there's going to be a lot of criticism of Brady's approach in conjunction with our complimentary football MO.  

 

 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

As to not being in a position to draft good pass rushers, George Karlafaftis went 30th overall and registered 10.5 sacks last year. 

 

I've never once watched a Chiefs game and felt like Karlaftis popped off the screen. Solid player but him getting double digit sacks is more a function of coaching IMO (and being next to the best DT in the league doesn't hurt). Similarly I don't expect L'Jarius Sneed to continue being an all-pro caliber CB in Tennessee. It's hard for me to know for sure if Veach is just inherently better at drafting defensive talent than Beane, or if their defensive coaching just does a much better job getting the most out of that talent.

[BullBuchanan]

7 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

I hate it.

 

Every GM we've EVER had priortizes it, but none of them are actually good at drafting it.

 

It's very difficult to win, if not impossible, without a very good d-line.

[BullBuchanan]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I've never once watched a Chiefs game and felt like Karlaftis popped off the screen. Solid player but him getting double digit sacks is more a function of coaching IMO (and being next to the best DT in the league doesn't hurt). Similarly I don't expect L'Jarius Sneed to continue being an all-pro caliber CB in Tennessee. It's hard for me to know for sure if Veach is just inherently better at drafting defensive talent than Beane, or if their defensive coaching just does a much better job getting the most out of that talent.

We watched a different player. Dude was a monster last season. I thought he was far better than his 10.5 sacks indicated. He's not a platinum tier pure pass rusher, but he's already a very high level complete football player that is always making plays. If he were on the Bills he'd have a legitimate argument to be in our top 2 players in the front 7.
 

 

From 2023:

 

[Rampant Buffalo]

4 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

The Bills where the only team after Thanksgiving last year who where in playoff contention that did not have a receiver who was originally drafted before the 4th round. As Diggs was a 5 in Minny. In terms of priorities Beane puts receiver at a very low priority. 

 

Andy Isabella was originally a 2nd round pick. But I haven't seen anyone say, "Wow! Look at the 2nd round pick Beane just invested in the WR position, in the form of Isabella!"

 

It works the other way too.

[Buffalo Boy]

32 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Not arguing that I'm the least.  

 

It's a great guess that by this season's end there's going to be a lot of criticism of Brady's approach in conjunction with our complimentary football MO.  

 

 

Only in as much as:

   The D doesn’t play well in the biggest moments ( L Jackson pick, yeah, I know) 

   They haven’t added the outside burner( s) Josh deserves. Not sure that will be Brady’s fault but agree he will catch heck for it.

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I think it’s debatable whether or not the 2015 team was better than all of the bills teams we’ve seen since 2020. What’s not debatable is that that 2015 panther team was a one year wonder whereas the team that McDermott and Beane have built here is a team that has lasted as a Super Bowl contender for four seasons and counting now.

 

This current bills team has not made the Super Bowl like the 2015 Panthers, but they’ve also been eliminated three out of the last four years by the current Chiefs Dynasty. I’m not so certain the 2015 Panthers wouldn’t have seen a similar fate in the same circumstance.

The Panthers 15 – 1 season was book ended by two losing seasons.

would you rather a team that was a one year wonder and went to and loss a Super Bowl or a team that’s competed to contend for a Super Bowl every season and winning the most games of any franchise over the current four-year span with the exception of a team that’s currently in the midst of a dynasty?

I would rather we didn't build the Houston Oilers and I wouldn't hang up my consolation trophies just because another team was good. 

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

4 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

The Bills where the only team after Thanksgiving last year who where in playoff contention that did not have a receiver who was originally drafted before the 4th round. As Diggs was a 5 in Minny. In terms of priorities Beane puts receiver at a very low priority. 

That's a silly argument, because Diggs was clearly a first round talent when the trade was made. Davis is at worst a 2nd round talent at this point in his career. When the draft happens, guys are unknowns. After they've played in the league 4+ years, where they were drafted doesn't matter at all. You can either play or you can't.

We've got a ton of former 2nd round bums on this team now including Hamler, Claypool and Isabella. They aren't better than Gabe Davis just because they were drafted 2 rounds earlier.