2015 Carolina Panthers: Have we ever been as good?

[PBF81]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Only in as much as:

   The D doesn’t play well in the biggest moments ( L Jackson pick, yeah, I know) 

   They haven’t added the outside burner( s) Josh deserves. Not sure that will be Brady’s fault but agree he will catch heck for it.

 

We'll see, but IMO it'll go beyond the talent and into the approach.  Some would still no doubt defer that if that were to be the case. 

 

 

[Putin]

10 hours ago, Buddy Hix said:

Panthers were better everywhere, with a tie at QB.

 

Crazy how you can see the 1990’s team building philosophy in both rosters. 

Tie at the QB ? Nah not even close  !!!

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

I've never once watched a Chiefs game and felt like Karlaftis popped off the screen. Solid player but him getting double digit sacks is more a function of coaching IMO (and being next to the best DT in the league doesn't hurt). Similarly I don't expect L'Jarius Sneed to continue being an all-pro caliber CB in Tennessee. It's hard for me to know for sure if Veach is just inherently better at drafting defensive talent than Beane, or if their defensive coaching just does a much better job getting the most out of that talent.

 

If the objective criteria of success is for a guy to demonstrate he "popped off the screen" I don't know what to tell you.  

 

Funny thing about the Chiefs is they've become a more complete team since the AFC CG loss to New England in 2018.  They were 31st in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed (EDIT: that year).  Last year, they were 2nd in both categories.  

 

We can go on all off-season debating this, but it's a very different ideology for building a roster there.  The one thing they've been more adept at is sustaining their success and I haven't heard anyone in KC mention about being in "transition."  No one said that when trading Tyreek Hill was done.  

 

The common theme is having difference makers and Buffalo doesn't have that aside from Josh.  He's a big piece of the puzzle, but Buffalo lacks an elite receiver or pass rusher and haven't developed any either - yet.  

 

Edited May 9 by BillsVet

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I've never once watched a Chiefs game and felt like Karlaftis popped off the screen. Solid player but him getting double digit sacks is more a function of coaching IMO (and being next to the best DT in the league doesn't hurt). Similarly I don't expect L'Jarius Sneed to continue being an all-pro caliber CB in Tennessee. It's hard for me to know for sure if Veach is just inherently better at drafting defensive talent than Beane, or if their defensive coaching just does a much better job getting the most out of that talent.

 

I agree on Karlaftis. Disagree on Sneed. I think he is a legit corner. He is one of the best matchup guys around.

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

Funny thing about the Chiefs is they've become a more complete team since the AFC CG loss to New England in 2018.  They were 31st in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed (EDIT: that year).  Last year, they were 2nd in both categories.  

 

Yeah they fired their DC Bob Sutton after a string of embarrassing defensive losses that year culminating in that AFCCG loss. Since Spagnuolo took over they have had at the very least an above average defense which always raises its level in the playoffs, and of course was elite this past season. That's my point though. They changed the defensive coach and saw an immediate turnaround. Elite coaching staffs make the GM look smarter by default. It's the newest iteration of the dynasty Patriots, unfortunately.

[billybrew1]

15 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Dorsey was the QB coach, McD was the defensive coordinator, Beane was Assistant GM. They went to the Super Bowl that year losing to the Broncos.  Looking at the roster two thing concerned me. They seem to be constructed in similar fashion as we have been. Specifically the WR neglect seems pretty apparent in the make up of both teams.  They seem to be MUCH more talented than any version of the Bills we have seen thus far. It's nearly at every position. Beane has had a good amount of time working on our roster. This was a very good Carolina team but I don't like that it appears we have a deficit against them in nearly every position.

 

QB - This was Cams MVP season, but still would rather have Josh

 

Cam Newton

 

 

RB - Both went to the Pro Bowl that year, Stewart was actually a really good back at that time. This is close but nod to Carolina. 

 

Jonathan Stewart 

Mike Tolbert  

 

WR - It's possible our current WR room is better than the one they fielded in 2015 🤢. Ginn was very explosive but nobody had over 750 yards. Our WR units have been better the last few years which is really concerning as far as how Beane views the position. 

 

Ted Ginn Jr

Jerricho Cotchery

Devin Funchess

Corey Brown

 

TE - Olson was an absolute monster. Very high hopes for Kincaid but hard to put him in Olson's class at this stage

 

Greg Olson

 

OL- Two all pros and Michael Oher. Nod to Carolina

 

T Michael Oher

LG Andrew Norwell

C Ryan Kalil

RG Trai Turner

RT Mike Remmers

 

DL - Short was a pro bowler. This was the young version of Star. I would say DL is pretty close.

 

DE  Charles Johnson

DT Star Lotulelei

DT Kawann Short

DE Jared Allen

 

LB - One of the best LB cores of the decade. Not close. 

 

Shaq Thompson

Luke Kuechly

Thomas Davis

 

DB - When we had pre injury Tre and younger Poyer and Hyde we probably get that nod. That unit hasn't been intact for a bit though. 

 

CB Charles Tillman

CB Josh Norman

SS Roman Harper

FS Kurt Coleman

In order for the LBs to be that good (and they were) the DL HAS to be pretty good as well… 

I’d say all four were able to due their job, that is to let the LBs shine.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

If the objective criteria of success is for a guy to demonstrate he "popped off the screen" I don't know what to tell you.  

 

Funny thing about the Chiefs is they've become a more complete team since the AFC CG loss to New England in 2018.  They were 31st in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed (EDIT: that year).  Last year, they were 2nd in both categories.  

 

We can go on all off-season debating this, but it's a very different ideology for building a roster there.  The one thing they've been more adept at is sustaining their success and I haven't heard anyone in KC mention about being in "transition."  No one said that when trading Tyreek Hill was done.  

 

The common theme is having difference makers and Buffalo doesn't have that aside from Josh.  He's a big piece of the puzzle, but Buffalo lacks an elite receiver or pass rusher and haven't developed any either - yet.  

 

 

 

“Look, this game, it’s so hard to be good year in and year out and you just more than anything you have to have a roster that can handle the physicality of this game and the injuries. ... So when we thought about this opportunity long and hard and to infuse not just the picks but the cap space over the next few years, it just made a lot of sense to us and I think it worked out for both."

 

"We’re gonna have a lot of young guys play football for us this fall. There is going to be a transition period. But after the draft ended and from the time they’ve been here through the rookie minicamp, we’ve been certainly impressed with them and their attitudes."

 

Both of those quotes are Brett Veach after trading Tyreek Hill in the 2022 offseason. 2022 was supposed to be a transition year for them and they were not good a lot of the year. But they bucked the trend, their rookies balled out, they got a bit of luck with the Damar situation giving them homefield throughout the playoffs and Mahomes was clutch when they needed him to be.

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah they fired their DC Bob Sutton after a string of embarrassing defensive losses that year culminating in that AFCCG loss. Since Spagnuolo took over they have had at the very least an above average defense which always raises its level in the playoffs, and of course was elite this past season. That's my point though. They changed the defensive coach and saw an immediate turnaround. Elite coaching staffs make the GM look smarter by default. It's the newest iteration of the dynasty Patriots, unfortunately.

 

I mean Veach had been GM for exactly one draft when they fired Sutton. 

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I mean Veach had been GM for exactly one draft when they fired Sutton.

 

The coaching is what changed the most since then IMO. No reason they shouldn't have won the Super Bowl that year. They still had Tyreek Hill and the league hadn't caught up to the revolutionary offense spearheaded by a QB doing things no one had ever done before. They just needed their defense to not get dominated and they simply couldn't do it.

 

Since then they have had their one cornerstone player in Chris Jones. Everyone else has been a rotating cast of different characters. The one constant from then to now is Steve Spagnuolo. Pretty clearly the best defensive coach in the league IMO and has a knack for taking his unit to another level in the playoffs. Honestly he might have been more responsible for their Super Bowl win last year than Andy Reid was.

 

Edited May 9 by HappyDays

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Carolina played the worst offensive game of any team that Denver faced that season.  

 

 

That may be true. Calling them overrated after dismantling the 13-3 Cards and the beating the back to back SB team Seahawks is kinda wild though

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

I would rather we didn't build the Houston Oilers and I wouldn't hang up my consolation trophies just because another team was good. 

 

 

none of that has to do with the question asked though right? Both teams have consolation banners. Can Newton doesn’t have a Super Bowl ring.

 

If the question is which team is built better I would go with the one that is built for sustain success over the one year wonder.

 

now, if you want to argue that Josh Allen might be the sole reason why the bills are built for sustained success  rather than being a one year wonder, then I probably agree. but regardless of the reason, the bills are obviously the better built team.

 

 

 

 

 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

No one said that when trading Tyreek Hill was done. 

Are we living on the same TBD? The narrative was obviously that Mahomes would struggle and “let’s see him without 2 HoF targets” lol

[BullBuchanan]

21 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

none of that has to do with the question asked though right? Both teams have consolation banners. Can Newton doesn’t have a Super Bowl ring.

 

If the question is which team is built better I would go with the one that is built for sustain success over the one year wonder.

 

now, if you want to argue that Josh Allen might be the sole reason why the bills are built for sustained success  rather than being a one year wonder, then I probably agree. but regardless of the reason, the bills are obviously the better built team.

I think being better "built" would imply the philosophy is different. It's the same philosophy. Cam and Josh are the same archetype, Josh is just a lot better. They were enamored with big slow WR prospects in the draft, first Benjamin and then Funchess. Their plans fell apart at WR because Benjamin got hurt and Funchess sucked.

 

They too brought in a former star DE (Allen) at the end of the line to try to put them over the hump.

 

They invested heavily in big men with 10/12 top 3 picks invested in OL or Defensive front 7 between 2012 and 2015.

Edited May 9 by BullBuchanan

[Mikie2times]

18 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

none of that has to do with the question asked though right? Both teams have consolation banners. Can Newton doesn’t have a Super Bowl ring.

 

If the question is which team is built better I would go with the one that is built for sustain success over the one year wonder.

 

now, if you want to argue that Josh Allen might be the sole reason why the bills are built for sustained success  rather than being a one year wonder, then I probably agree. but regardless of the reason, the bills are obviously the better built team.

 

 

 

 

 

Beane has had more time, more control, and we are not as good in nearly any area. In addition to this we are taking the form of what could be considered to be the wrong design. The fact that Allen keeps the boat floating so it never actually sinks is a curse as much as it is a blessing. 

5 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

I think being better "built" would imply the philosophy is different. It's the same philosophy. Cam and Josh are the same archetype, Josh is just a lot better. They were enamored with big slow WR prospects in the draft, first Benjamin and then Funchess. Their plans fell apart at WR because Benjamin got hurt and Funchess sucked.

 

They too brought in a former star DE (Allen) at the end of the line to try to put them over the hump.

 

They invested heavily in big mean with 11/12 top 3 picks invested in OL or Defensive front 7 between 2012 and 2015

It's remarkably similar

Edited May 9 by Mikie2times

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

12 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Beane has had more time, more control, and we are not as good in nearly any area.

We are not nearly as good as a team that had losing a seasons in two out of four seasons while playing in one of the worst divisions in football? How do they keep winning year after year?

 

 

 

 

 

[without a drought]

4 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

We are not nearly as good as a team that had losing a seasons in two out of four seasons while playing in one of the worst divisions in football? How do they keep winning year after year?

 

 

 

 

 

2014 when they won the division by going 7-8-1 was something special.

 

 

[Mikie2times]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

We are not nearly as good as a team that had losing a seasons in two out of four seasons while playing in one of the worst divisions in football? How do they keep winning year after year?

 

 

 

 

 

Not that hard to figure out 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

30 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Not that hard to figure out 

 

okay. Maybe I am dull. What the heck is that supposed to tell us other than the Panthers had one abnormally great year? Which we already knew. 
 

The Bills worst years under Beane and McDermott were good years for the Cam Newton Panthers. The Bills should have bottomed out this last year when they were 6-6 and had one of those losing seasons like the Panthers did but instead they went on a six game winning streak and it wasn’t because Josh Allen went nuclear. 

[McDeerInTheHeadlights]

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The build is very similar to Carolina. Constant resource allocation to the front 7 on defense in FA and the draft. The numbers are staggeringly similar in terms of drafting. 

 

In the TEN drafts where Beane was in a senior role in the Carolina front office (2008-2017) the Panthers had 69 draft picks and spent 20 of them on front 7 on defense. That is 29%. They had 28 picks in that time in the first three rounds and spent 12 of them on the defensive front 7. That is 43%

 

In the SEVEN drafts Beane has been GM in Buffalo (2018-2024) the Bills have had 55 draft picks and spent 14 of them on front 7 on defense. That is 25%. They have had 21 picks in that time in the first three rounds and spent 9 of them on defensive front 7. That is 43% (identical to Carolina). 

 

Is worth saying at this point that defensive front 7 is around 30% of your starters, so those numbers should be seen in that context. But Brandon Beane is building his team the way he witnessed it done in Carolina. He tells us himself he will never apologise for prioritising the defensive front. And he is as good as his word in that regard. 

 

Interesting stats, although the Bills do not have a "pure" front 7, which means they put even more emphasis on these positions in Buffalo.

[Rampant Buffalo]

3 hours ago, BillsVet said:

If the objective criteria of success is for a guy to demonstrate he "popped off the screen" I don't know what to tell you. 

 

A lot depends on what kind of screen you're using. If you have a hologram projector or a 3D printer, it's a lot easier for a guy to pop off the screen. If on the other hand you have a plain old two dimensional screen, any guy on your screen is pretty much stuck there.

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

okay. Maybe I am dull. What the heck is that supposed to tell us other than the Panthers had one abnormally great year? Which we already knew. 
 

The Bills worst years under Beane and McDermott were good years for the Cam Newton Panthers. The Bills should have bottomed out this last year when they were 6-6 and had one of those losing seasons like the Panthers did but instead they went on a six game winning streak and it wasn’t because Josh Allen went nuclear. 

So take Allen off the field and replace him with an average level QB and we still beat KC? We still beat the Chargers? We run all over the Cowboys? We come from behind vs Miami? Allen or the threat of Allen contributed to all of our wins. Newton playing like a below average QB is why Carolina didn't sustain success. You can only give this group so much credit for landing a single player. They have not been able to develop the roster even as well as they did almost 10 years ago.