Is it true the Bills didn’t “do enough” at WR to compete for championships?

[Mr. WEO]

13 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

The Cardinals, Giants, and Bears were not trading back to 28 and passing on the top 3 WRs.  

 

Jags traded down and still got Brian Thomas Jr., a consensus top 5 WR, at 23. 

 

And, given how badly Chicago is run, who knows what they would have taken to move to 9.  

[BarleyNY]

12 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

I think Josh Allen excels in play action, so that would be a good thing.

This is true of most QBs, but not all. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think I remember hearing that Allen dislikes play action because he prefers to line up in shotgun and keep his eyes on the defense rather than line up under center and turn his back to the defense as play action requires.

 

Dorsey and Brady instead used RPOs out of shotgun to blend the run and pass games. But it might be something Allen has to get used to doing. If the Bills are going to run more, then he is probably going to line up under center more often. If that happens we will want to take advantage of using traditional play action. 

[nosejob]

6 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

This is true of most QBs, but not all. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think I remember hearing that Allen dislikes play action because he prefers to line up in shotgun and keep his eyes on the defense rather than line up under center and turn his back to the defense as play action requires.

 

Dorsey and Brady instead used RPOs out of shotgun to blend the run and pass games. But it might be something Allen has to get used to doing. If the Bills are going to run more, then he is probably going to line up under center more often. If that happens we will want to take advantage of using traditional play action. 

I myself would prefer Josh in shotgun...with a clean pocket putting on a clinic.

[mannc]

I can see the OP’s point, but this makes two years in a row that the Bills have used their first draft pick on a receiver.  Are we really complaining about not double-dipping this year in round 3 or 4?  (Last year we took Shorter in round 5.) I agree that this regime historically has short-changed the offense, but what did people want us to do differently the last two years?  

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Jags traded down and still got Brian Thomas Jr., a consensus top 5 WR, at 23. 

 

And, given how badly Chicago is run, who knows what they would have taken to move to 9.  

How do you know the Bills didn’t try to move up?  (I suspect Thomas Jr was off their board because of injury and character concerns.)

And what makes you think the Bears are badly run?  Other than trading for Claypool two years ago, they’ve made a lot of strong moves…

Edited May 6 by mannc

[Boatdrinks]

At this point if I had to guess I would say no, they haven’t. We can’t know of course, and there are always surprises in the NFL season. That’s part of what makes it compelling. On paper - and I know games aren’t played on paper- the Bills WR corps doesn’t look impressive. As fans there is nothing we can do about the FO strategy , so I’ll hope for the best. 

[Dr. Who]

45 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

This is true of most QBs, but not all. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think I remember hearing that Allen dislikes play action because he prefers to line up in shotgun and keep his eyes on the defense rather than line up under center and turn his back to the defense as play action requires.

 

Dorsey and Brady instead used RPOs out of shotgun to blend the run and pass games. But it might be something Allen has to get used to doing. If the Bills are going to run more, then he is probably going to line up under center more often. If that happens we will want to take advantage of using traditional play action. 

I do think he prefers shotgun for the reasons you indicate. However, I seem to recall some metric that showed the offense was quite successful when employing play action, though I could not possibly trace the source of that information (or what season or seasons that would pertain), nor state with certitude that it isn't something I imagined. Nonetheless, I generally have a pretty good memory, so I suppose it more likely there is something out there that gives that data.

Edited May 5 by Dr. Who

[billybrew1]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:13 AM, Bills Bud said:

They never did enough. Allen has never had the proper weapons to win a Super Bowl, and our group now may be the worse

Diggs, Knox, Singletary, Smoke or Sanders, Beasley and Davis was definitely good enough…..

 

Of course, we had a poor OL then…. And all our blue chip defenders were in the secondary….

The Tre White injury was huge for the Bills….

 

Now?
Our OL took some hits with Morse and Bates leaving, but especially Morse of course. We’ll see if Edward’s or Prangle can fill a gap.

Our skill positions took big hits too… We still lack speed, imho… it was very apparent vs. better Ds last season and it will probably be a problem this year as well. We don’t need fast players, we need good fast players. I think Coleman looks like he might end up being a good one, but I loved adding Davis. His big downside is miles as he has just a crazy amount of Carries already. But I really like his film and we needed a RB real bad.

We’ll find out this year how good of an OC we have. Now that he has a full offseason to run whatever he wants.

i just wonder if Joe Brady got his guys or McBeane’s  guys?

 

On defense, we desperately need an All-pro DL. Someone to draw a lot of attention to himself. A dominator. If we had one our decent DL players would look much better. Again, we need one bad!

We look great at LB but our little LBs are dependent on our DL keeping them clean. Can it? IDK? We probably cannot sustain any injuries at DL either. I like that we appear to have really solid depth at LB….

Secondary - We look OK here but really have very little depth at spots you really need good depth at. We also lost all three blue chip players but in reality, we lost all three after the 2021 season. So… OK but real thin.

STs - They also look iffy as both of our kickers make a good buck. Our punter was a hero last season so perhaps he can do it again.

Our kicker had a really poor season for him, maybe he can come back… No one who is going to return. We had trouble on STs many times last season. Blocked punts, missed chip shots….blocked kicks… Very few big plays to help the team but that has been characteristic of our STs since McD took over. We are very unaggressive. I don’t like our STs coach but I don’t know who would be better….

 

All in all, it looks like Josh might be on his own more this season than ever….though there is a chance we get hot as the rookies play more if we are lucky on the injury front….

 

Go Bills!

 

 

 

[AZSanta]

It all comes down to quarterback play. If your QB plays great in the playoffs you are going to win more times than not. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

I can see the OP’s point, but this makes two years in a row that the Bills have used their first draft pick on a receiver.  Are we really complaining about not double-dipping this this year in round 3 or 4?  (Last year we took Shorter in round 5.) I agree that this regime historically has short-changed the offense, but what did people want us to do differently the last two years?  

How do you know the Bills didn’t try to move up?  (I suspect Thomas Jr was off their board because of injury and character concerns.)

And what makes you think the Bears are badly run?  Other than trading for Claypool two years ago, they’ve made a lot of strong moves…

 

So... character concerns are top of mind for the Bills with the WR?  How do you explain "locker room cancer" Claypool signing?  Good one!

 

And it's difficult for me to believe the bolded part is a serious question.  They are a horribly run franchise....for years.  they have played 4 playoff games in the last 18 years, one win.  They have just spent  3rd 1st round pick in the past 7 drafts on a QB.  They traded 4 picks to move up 1 spot to get Trubisky--a guy who no one was going to pick at #3.  They overdrafted Fields and then tossed him to the curb after 3 seasons....for a 6th round pick!  No they lunged for Caleb Williams, a guy who many question his maturity, because they had to.  

 

Outside of the Browns and the Jags, how can you argue that the Bears aren't the worst  run franchise in the NFL?

 

You were joking right??

[klos63]

We have a few young receivers from last season that might help.

Sometimes it's those type players that have an impact, not the first year players. 

[mannc]

19 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

So... character concerns are top of mind for the Bills with the WR?  How do you explain "locker room cancer" Claypool signing?  Good one!

 

And it's difficult for me to believe the bolded part is a serious question.  They are a horribly run franchise....for years.  they have played 4 playoff games in the last 18 years, one win.  They have just spent  3rd 1st round pick in the past 7 drafts on a QB.  They traded 4 picks to move up 1 spot to get Trubisky--a guy who no one was going to pick at #3.  They overdrafted Fields and then tossed him to the curb after 3 seasons....for a 6th round pick!  No they lunged for Caleb Williams, a guy who many question his maturity, because they had to.  

 

Outside of the Browns and the Jags, how can you argue that the Bears aren't the worst  run franchise in the NFL?

 

You were joking right??

The Bills acquired Claypool for nothing.  If he's a locker room problem, they can cut him in an instant.  Not so for a rookie WR drafted in the first round.  Please tell me you understand the difference...

 

Almost everything you just said about the Bears organization has to do with the previous regime.  As for this regime, they swung and missed on Fields; big deal, at least they took a shot at QB with upside; I still think he can be a decent NFL QB.  They robbed Carolina last year and ended up with a WR1, a starting left tackle and the first overall pick in this year's draft.  I'm not a Caleb Williams fan either, but most consider him the most talented college QB in the past four or five years.  We'll see how that turns out, but surely they didn't "reach".  The Bears also came out of the draft with an absolute stud rookie WR for Williams to throw to.  And the widely panned Montez Sweat trade has turned out really well.  Sweat turned around their defense last year after the trade and the now have a young, premium edge rusher in exchange for a second round pick.        

Edited May 5 by mannc

[BullBuchanan]

22 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

You're just not talking to the right people. I still hear it now and again.

There's a kind of reactive impulse on these boards. Folks with radically different takes feel compelled to object, but no one persuades.

It's a kind of Sisyphean exercise where individuals mutually accuse the other of obtuseness. I find it amusing in a darkly wry manner, even though often enough I indulge that wicked energy.

 

Anyway, if the WR experiment fails, we can look forward to a recapitulation of the last draft, with folks urging the use of accumulated draft capital for a top tier WR, and you and your cohorts preaching DE, CB, and the like. Joy, isn't it?

Or maybe I'm avoiding the "right" people. I always associated that phrase with backwater folks. It's adorable when they try to explain to people (who didn't ask) that iT iSnT rEaLlY a cOmPLiMeNt, when anyone with a triple digit IQ or who has been alive for over 5 years already knows this. It stopped being cleaver in the 70s, if it even was then.

Edited May 5 by BullBuchanan

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, mannc said:

The Bills acquired Claypool for nothing.  If he's a locker room problem, they can cut him in an instant.  Not so for a rookie WR drafted in the first round.  Please tell me you understand the difference...

 

Almost everything you just said about the Bears organization has to do with the previous regime.  As for this regime, they swung and missed on Fields; big deal, at least they took a shot at QB with upside; I still think he can be a decent NFL QB.  They robbed Carolina last year and ended up with a WR1, a starting left tackle and the first overall pick in this year's draft.  I'm not a Caleb Williams fan either, but most consider him the most talented college QB in the past four or five years.  We'll see how that turns out, but surely they didn't "reach".  The Bears also came out of the draft with an absolute stud rookie WR for Williams to throw to.  And the widely panned Montez Sweat trade has turned out really well.  Sweat turned around their defense last year after the trade and the now have a young, premium edge rusher in exchange for a second round pick.        

 

The Beats had no problem getting rid of their first rounders.  But that doesn't answer my question.  By all accounts, Claypool is a head case.  Not so for Thomas Jr--unless you would like to make something up..

 

I didn't say they reached for Williams.  They picked him because their recent 2 1st round QB picks were awful.  You and I could have made those picks. You understand the difference right?

 

The fact that the Bears are on their 4th GM in a dozen years is your evidence that they are not a poorly run franchise?  That's not a convincing argument...

 

 

[mannc]

21 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The Beats had no problem getting rid of their first rounders.  But that doesn't answer my question.  By all accounts, Claypool is a head case.  Not so for Thomas Jr--unless you would like to make something up..

 

I didn't say they reached for Williams.  They picked him because their recent 2 1st round QB picks were awful.  You and I could have made those picks. You understand the difference right?

 

The fact that the Bears are on their 4th GM in a dozen years is your evidence that they are not a poorly run franchise?  That's not a convincing argument...

 

 

I like Brian Thomas Jr a lot and I was hoping the Bills drafted him, but there were rumors about injuries and unspecified off-field issues that may have made him drop.  In any event, he was not available when the Bills picked so they would have had to move up for him, probably into the late teens.  It's impossible to criticize them for not making such a move when we have no idea what it would have cost or if it was even do-able.

 

Yes, the Bears have been a poorly run franchise over the past 25 years, but this regime has only been around for 3 or 4 years.  They got off to a rocky start, but they've made some very astute moves in the past couple year and could be a playoff team this year if it turns out Williams can play.  They aren't nearly as bad an organization as the Browns, Jets, Panthers, Cardinals, Saints, Falcons, Broncos, etc...   

Edited May 5 by mannc

[Dr. Who]

24 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Or maybe I'm avoiding the "right" people. I always associated that phrase with backwater folks. It's adorable when they try to explain to people (who didn't ask) that iT iSnT rEaLlY a cOmPLiMeNt, when anyone with a triple digit IQ or who has been alive for over 5 years already knows this. It stopped being cleaver in the 70s, if it even was then.

Yes, I did not intend right people as moral approbation, but indicative of the folks who speak that way. I don't necessarily think, however, that folks who live in a rural backwater are bound to be backwards. Further, I live in a rural backwater, though I suspect you may find my own proclivities insufficiently advanced.  Have no fear, however, I will not "bless your heart," no matter what.

[Mat68]

13 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

In a year that made the most sense to double dip at wr, Beane chose not to. And my reasoning was simply 2 factors.  First, you may not see another pool of wr talent in a draft like this for several years. Second,  it acts as an insurance policy in case Coleman doesn't pan out.  It wouldn't of killed BB to grab Franklin or Walker in the mid rounds.  No one is rooting for Keon to shine more than me.  But if he struggles,  it will go down in "Beane Lore" as a collasal mistake. 

It comes down to what you view Shakir as.  They think he steps in as a starter.  If Shakir can maintain 85 to 90% of his efficiency he will have a very good year.   They are replacing Davis with Coleman.  Samuel is taking over Shakir role.  Shakir is taking over Diggs role but with the end of season targets.  I think a mid to late rounder has difficulty making the team this season.  
 

Hedging at Wr because you question your scouting ability is not in the cards for Beane.  Is Franklin or Walker better in 2024 than Carter or Davis?  Better long term solution than Van Pron Granger?  Taking Franklin because you dont like Coleman is not really that strong of a reason.  Based on post draft reports Coleman was a popular player and target by multiple team at the top of rd 2.  The NFL viewed Franklin must less.  Buffalo viewed him much less.  Hard to question any of the picks individually.  Couple of traitsy OT projects but even that I like taking those swings.   

[Rocky Landing]

23 hours ago, Augie said:

 

You realize the South is a big place, right? I heard it just last week. That’s a fact. 

 

It’s actually used quite commonly, but not in a flattering way. For those of you familiar with DCTom……..yep. 

 

 

.

I wish @DC Tom would start posting again. We could use his...umm... perspective around here, lately...

[PBF81]

On 5/4/2024 at 12:10 PM, blacklabel said:

Yeah, I agree. I mean, is it nice to have a "true #1" WR? Sure, I guess. Is it a necessity? I don't really think so. Diggs has some great moments but when it came down to make or break in the playoffs he wasn't much of a factor save for the 2020 playoffs. 

 

Here's the thing, and here's why the reason for our playoff futility is obvious despite a lack of clarity for a lot of people, but who in our playoffs has consistently been a factor in the playoffs for us, on either side of the ball, besides Allen?  

 

The short answer is no one.  Davis comes the closest, he and Allen are singlehandedly responsible for our best playoff game and the one deepest in the playoffs also.  

 

There isn't a single player on the team, including Diggs, that has even approached  being consistent, not one.  

 

There's a core reason for that, but many choose to ignore it.  Not much we can do anyway, but as they say, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results ... 

 

 

[nosejob]

3 hours ago, klos63 said:

We have a few young receivers from last season that might help.

Sometimes it's those type players that have an impact, not the first year players. 

I'm very optimistic at WR and Coleman I'm coming around on him. Tired of hearing we have no speed, enough of that crap.

If these guys can play as a unit, they can be a scoring machine. All that no.1...no.2  no.3 stuff is all crap too. I'm trusting Brady to be all about mismatches week to week and everyone should benefit. BTW, I think Shavers could be our Troy Franklin.

[90sBills]

13 hours ago, Jimmy Harris 69 said:

I have to disagree Mr. Walnuts. The Kansas City Chiefs won the Super Bowl with a bunch of hockey pucks playing receiver. Kelce even had a bit of a down year. They beat the 49ers, who are loaded at receiver. They also defeated the Ravens who have two very good receivers and a solid TE. The Ravens lost because they tried to out pass the Chiefs instead of just being the best rushing team in the AFC. The Bills, seeing KC’s success are emulating the approach. What team with a twenty five million dollar receiver has won it all? The answer is none. A variety of targets schemed in the right way, with a good running attack is enough when JA17 is Quarterback. Hell I can’t wait to see our younger jumped up defense fly around. These are some exciting times mates!

Bills had a group of receivers that included Diggs and Davis. I’d say that’s better than hockey pucks. We’ve been to the AFCCG once just to get blown out. Now they’re gone and replaced with unproven talents but it’s enough now?

 

Kincaid and Coleman need to develop into top pass catchers. Also need one of the fast receivers on the roster to consistently stretch the field to clear out the middle. I don’t believe the Bills can win a superbowl without major contributors from the wr position. It’s not the same situation as KC.