Athletic article - comments from NFL people on AFC draft classes

[FireChans]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Would you have drafted Reed or Diggs?

I don’t know? If i knew they were gonna be who they ended up being, I’d draft them a lot higher.

[Malazan]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

I just answered. 
 

tough scene

So the Bills early season slide and disappointing playoff exit was a cause for everyone to be fired, but the Eagles late season slide and disappointing playoff exit is a 100% lock for a first time GM to win the Superbowl?

[oldmanfan]

Just now, FireChans said:

I don’t know? If i knew they were gonna be who they ended up being, I’d draft them a lot higher.

Well yes, hindsight is great, isn’t it?  Because we can go back years and talk about WRs drafted in later rounds that were great and guys drafted in round 1 that didn’t pan out.  
 

Over the last several years the Bills drafted a RB that is a good pass catcher in round 2 (Cook is working out), a TE (Kincaid is working out), and a WR (we’ll see with Coleman).  And traded a # 1 for Diggs.

Facts are stubborn things.

[FireChans]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Well yes, hindsight is great, isn’t it?  Because we can go back years and talk about WRs drafted in later rounds that were great and guys drafted in round 1 that didn’t pan out.  
 

Over the last several years the Bills drafted a RB that is a good pass catcher in round 2 (Cook is working out), a TE (Kincaid is working out), and a WR (we’ll see with Coleman).  And traded a # 1 for Diggs.

Facts are stubborn things.

So you think the Bills have done a good enough job at getting WR's?   Because of Cook and Kincaid? Is that the take?

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

So you think the Bills have done a good enough job at getting WR's?   Because of Cook and Kincaid? Is that the take?

And trading for Diggs.  And Shakir is shaping up.  I might have gone after one more somewhere along the way.  
 

You act like they can play 8 WR at a time.

[FireChans]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

And trading for Diggs.  And Shakir is shaping up.  I might have gone after one more somewhere along the way.  
 

You act like they can play 8 WR at a time.

I definitely would have. You're the one who finds that so outlandish.

 

We traded for Diggs 4 years ago. That's a long time in the NFL.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

I definitely would have. You're the one who finds that so outlandish.

 

We traded for Diggs 4 years ago. That's a long time in the NFL.

I believe you win up front.  I would have spent more capital in the O line.  Give Josh more time then WRs get open regardless where they’re drafted.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

59 minutes ago, DrMaxPower said:

I like the comments on Kincaid VS Bowers.

 

Everyone has been pumping up Bowers as the uber-prospect for 2 years but at least some people see Kincaid as the more better receiver.

 

Mo betta 

[FireChans]

24 minutes ago, Malazan said:

So the Bills early season slide and disappointing playoff exit was a cause for everyone to be fired, but the Eagles late season slide and disappointing playoff exit is a 100% lock for a first time GM to win the Superbowl?

Oh, they should have fired their HC.

 

You know the Eagles were in the Superbowl a year ago, right?  With a far worse QB than ours, right?

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, DrMaxPower said:

 

It's a net negative if Diggs was who was supposed to be. Instead he was a petulant baby that quit mid season.

 

People keep talking about the WR position with the memory of Diggs, not the guy who was actually on the field the last 10 games.

 

The Diggs/Davis we got down the stretch will not be hard to replicate, if not surpass.

 

I think from a locker room perspective it’s a net positive.  Addition by subtraction.  
 

Even though it appears that Diggs lost a little, he was still an above average WR.  His numbers were pedestrian down the stretch, but there were also several long throws that he missed with Allen which could have changed that story.  Plus having Diggs on the field, helped open things up for receivers in the flat/middle like Cook, Shakir and Kincaid.

 

My problem isn’t necessarily that they moved on from Diggs/Davis - it’s more that the plan to replace them doesn’t look very encouraging on paper

[DrMaxPower]

20 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Mo betta 

 

Haha me speak english good.

 

More polished*, better

[DrMaxPower]

16 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I think from a locker room perspective it’s a net positive.  Addition by subtraction.  
 

Even though it appears that Diggs lost a little, he was still an above average WR.  His numbers were pedestrian down the stretch, but there were also several long throws that he missed with Allen which could have changed that story.  Plus having Diggs on the field, helped open things up for receivers in the flat/middle like Cook, Shakir and Kincaid.

 

My problem isn’t necessarily that they moved on from Diggs/Davis - it’s more that the plan to replace them doesn’t look very encouraging on paper

 

I'm not convinced that teams were giving him much attention. He saw a lot of single coverage that he wouldn't break. I say wouldn't intentionally; I think it was a result of attitude/effort rather than deteriorating physical ability. I think teams saw the uninterested malcontent and treated him accordingly. He certainly wasn't seeing the coverage he did a couple years ago.

 

I think there's a difference in perspective; I see it as needing to replace what we had on the field to end last year, not the guy who racked up 1400 yards. I think there's enough secondary options to chew into that gap in production. I still think we're going to see lots of 2 TE this year.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

I'm going to watch. But I'm also not going to bend over backward to defend BB as doing a great job. He has crossed the Rubicon for me.

 

Who did we lose?  Latty Murray? The 60th rusher in the league with 79 carries?  We needed to spend a fourth on an RB for that? Ookay.

 

Day 2 picks are bad investments for RB's. Singletary, Moss, and Cook were all day 2 picks. You are right that Davis was a fourth.

 

"So in 3 of the past 5 drafts the Bills have invested a 2 first round picks and a 2nd round pick on a receiving weapon for Josh."

 

If you think the Bills are investing enough in WR, there's really not much else to say lol. It speaks VOLUMES that you have to play pretend that Kincaid is a WR.

 

Lol...just when I thought your post couldn't be any worse than your last one you go out and top it.  Impressive.  

 

What is so funny to me is that when I mention the fact that the back to back Champs have had a worse WR room the last 2 years than the Bills (and one of the worst in the league)...the FIRST thing you and all of them say is BUT KELCE.  But with the Bills, you want to downplay Kincaid at TE and over dramatize WR.

 

The fact you want to ignore a first round TE who set team records as a rookie as a "weapon" for Josh says all anyone needs to know about how bad this post is.  But why stop there...you dumb it down further by now saying Cook was a bad investment...Literally 1 post after you just said the run game was fine with Cook and we didn't need another RB?  Ummmm...Ok.  

 

And I can promise you no GM in the NFL thinks a day 2 pick on a RB is a bad investment.  Literally one of the most absurd draft-isms I have ever heard.  

 

 

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lol...just when I thought your post couldn't be any worse than your last one you go out and top it.  Impressive.  

 

What is so funny to me is that when I mention the fact that the back to back Champs have had a worse WR room the last 2 years than the Bills (and one of the worst in the league)...the FIRST thing you and all of them say is BUT KELCE.  But with the Bills, you want to downplay Kincaid at TE and over dramatize WR.

 

The fact you want to ignore a first round TE who set team records as a rookie as a "weapon" for Josh says all anyone needs to know about how bad this post is.  But why stop there...you dumb it down further by now saying Cook was a bad investment...Literally 1 post after you just said the run game was fine with Cook and we didn't need another RB?  Ummmm...Ok.  

 

And I can promise you no GM in the NFL thinks a day 2 pick on a RB is a bad investment.  Literally one of the most absurd draft-isms I have ever heard.  

 

 

The back to back champs have invested a lot more at WR than we have. Same with their opponents in the Super Bowl.
 

And Kincaid isn’t Kelce 2.0 yet. 
 

Like I said, the fact that you have to include Kincaid in a discussion about the Bills WR investments is proof positive you have nothing here lmao. “We drafted Knox 4 years ago, how can you say we don’t invest enough in WR’s?”

[Malazan]

50 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Oh, they should have fired their HC.

 

You know the Eagles were in the Superbowl a year ago, right?  With a far worse QB than ours, right?

 

So a guy that was responsible (to some unknown degree) for drafting a far worse QB (and handing him big money) when that is by far the most important position in Football is the guy you want?

 

And I don't want it to sound harsh against Halaby. I think he has a fine resume for a GM, but I question your evaluation methodology. Beane has shown he can put together a consistent contender. The contention that Halaby without all of the personnel and structure already put in place by Rosemann as a 1st time GM would be able to achieve better results is hope, not something based on a reasonable expectation.

[Alphadawg7]

25 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The back to back champs have invested a lot more at WR than we have. Same with their opponents in the Super Bowl.
 

And Kincaid isn’t Kelce 2.0 yet. 
 

Like I said, the fact that you have to include Kincaid in a discussion about the Bills WR investments is proof positive you have nothing here lmao. “We drafted Knox 4 years ago, how can you say we don’t invest enough in WR’s?”

 

Didn't mention Knox once, but that is you deflecting again like always when you fail to make a point and spew nonsense but still try and save it.  The funniest part is the Bills have literally invested more into weapons for Josh than the Chiefs have for Mahomes.

 

Over the last 5 drafts starting in 2020 (Allens prime years)...

Bills:  Used TWO firsts and one second on pass catching weapons for Josh (Diggs, Kincaid, and Coleman).  

Chiefs:  Used ONE first and two seconds on pass catching weapons for Mahomes (Skyy Moore, Rashee Rice, and Xavier Worthy).  

 

LMAO - You aren't even right about Chiefs investing more, not to mention they did a worse job at it.  And here is the best part...the Chiefs ALSO used a...wait for it...FIRST round pick on a running back, and a crappy one too that got replaced by a 7th rounder a couple years later.  You know, that position you just said was a mistake to even use a day 2 pick on.  

 

And yeah...rookies generally dont come out and are the greatest to ever play the position as rookies.  So yeah duh he isn't Kelce yet, but that doesn't mean you don't draft him lmao.  And Kelce lost a step last year, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Kincaid has a better year than Kelce this year and every year moving forward.  So I wouldn't be so quick to say he isn't him yet in terms of a receiving weapon.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6 by Alphadawg7

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, Malazan said:

 

So a guy that was responsible (to some unknown degree) for drafting a far worse QB (and handing him big money) when that is by far the most important position in Football is the guy you want?

 

And I don't want it to sound harsh against Halaby. I think he has a fine resume for a GM, but I question your evaluation methodology. Beane has shown he can put together a consistent contender. The contention that Halaby without all of the personnel and structure already put in place by Rosemann as a 1st time GM would be able to achieve better results is hope, not something based on a reasonable expectation.

We already have a QB. 
 

So I’m not really worried about drafting a worse one and paying him and starting him, right?

 

What I do like is the Eagles’ approach to team building. Appropriately dedicating assets to WR (they just signed both their starters to long-term extensions and they still drafted 2 in the best WR draft in a while.) Emphasis on OL and disruptors on DL. Understanding the RB market and drafting a single RB above round 4 in the last 8 years. Not afraid to move around the draft board to target their players. 
 

You’re right, it could be all Roseman and maybe Halaby doesn’t have the same juice. But I much prefer that team building style (of a team that has gone to 2 SB’s and won 1), over the Carolina redux style (that went to 1 SB and got embarrassed because Cam was throwing to trash cans).

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Didn't mention Knox once, but that is you deflecting again like always when you fail to make a point and spew nonsense but still try and save it.  The funniest part is the Bills have literally invested more into weapons for Josh than the Chiefs have for Mahomes.

 

Over the last 5 drafts starting in 2020 (Allens prime years)...

Bills:  Used TWO firsts and one second on pass catching weapons for Josh (Diggs, Kincaid, and Coleman).  

Chiefs:  Used ONE first and two seconds on pass catching weapons for Mahomes (Skyy Moore, Rashee Rice, and Xavier Worthy).  

 

LMAO - You aren't even right about Chiefs investing more, not to mention they did a worse job at it.  And here is the best part...the Chiefs ALSO used a...wait for it...FIRST round pick on a running back, and a crappy one too that got replaced by a 7th rounder a couple years later.  You know, that position you just said was a mistake to even use a day 2 pick on.  

 

And yeah...rookies generally dont come out and are the greatest to ever play the position as rookies.  So no s*** he isn't Kelce yet, but that doesn't mean you don't draft him lmao.  And Kelce lost a step last year, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Kincaid has a better year than Kelce this year and every year moving forward.  So I wouldn't be so quick to say he isn't him yet in terms of a receiving weapon.

 

 

 

 

I’m talking about WR’s. Jesus Christ lmao. This is getting sad.

 

See I said:

 

“The back to back champs have invested a lot more at WR than we have. Same with their opponents in the Super Bowl”

and then you make your gibberish post about weapons. I didn’t say weapons. I said WR. Read the posts you’re responding to before you waste your time writing 3 paragraphs I’m not going to read.
 

And CEH was a horrific pick. They certainly should have took Tee Higgins, which I said at the time. So good one?

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Just discussing.  What do you think the primary benefit is of a strong arm?  If it’s throwing long passes then data has been shared on TBD showing that only about 1% of passes travel 40 yards or more in the air.  I suspect that’s because it it a low percentage chance of success.  To me Josh’s arm strength is shown on the intermediate routes when he can fit the ball into smaller areas.  Or on out routes.

 

You just keep beating your drum though if it makes you happy.  ... isn't "just discussing."  Best to leave stuff like that out for genuine discussion.   

 

The benefit of a strong arm has many benefits, primary of which is to open up the entire field as options for the passing game.  That's what they said about him when they drafted him.  Not we like his strong arm so he can feed receivers accurately in the short-medium game.  Every offseason our plan changes, there's no consistency.  

 

We draft Moss as a power rusher, but don't use him like that.  We sign Hines who's prolific in receiving, and say sign him with that stated intent, but don't use him.  It was ridiculous.  There are other examples, including once again drafting a Moss clone in essence in Davis this year.  Are we really going to a power rushing game?  What about all the hype over Cook.  (rhetorical)   Anyway, that's a lengthier conversation.  Let's stick to the core topic here.  

 

You make the statement ... "To me Josh’s arm strength is ..."   That suggests that you're trying to see things a certain way.  I try to lay all of my preconceived notions aside and look for evidence.  

 

 

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I’d be interested in your video evidence.  If by that you mean Josh isn’t seeing or throwing to open guys downfield that’s a different issue that play construction.

Do the Chiefs play pretend Kelce is a WR?

 

We can do that, in fact, I was going to put together a montage last season of all the plays, but I couldn't sign up for A22.  The highlight reels only have some of them.   

I'd recommend picking a game, watching it, and looking at what ALL of the receivers do, WRs, TEs, RBs, and then watch where Allen goes.  You won't have any difficulty picking them out.  The ones he overlooks are the ones he's going to have to start hitting this season the way things are panning out.  

 

BTW, in line with this, yesterday I just catalogued each and every pass to Coleman from last season.  I'll tally them up by type, but as I originally pointed out, lots of bubble-screens.  Most of his passes were caught within a few yards of the LoS.  Again, I'll break it down when I have time.  I stayed up way too late doing that.  

 

On top of that, here's a bonus topic.  The narrative is that Diggs lost a step.  I'm not seeing that, at least no so drastic that from game 10 to game 11 it plummeted, as in off a cliff, according to that narrative.  But if that's true, then as the season went on, he should have gotten slower, not faster.  

 

Watch the last regular season game highlights, the @ Miami game and pay attention to the Diggs only highlights.  And then tell me what you noticed?  

 

Do you have an source for every game last season?  I don't think they're on youtube.  If you do, let me know, I'll put together that montage video for you.  

 

 

[oldmanfan]

38 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

You just keep beating your drum though if it makes you happy.  ... isn't "just discussing."  Best to leave stuff like that out for genuine discussion.   

 

The benefit of a strong arm has many benefits, primary of which is to open up the entire field as options for the passing game.  That's what they said about him when they drafted him.  Not we like his strong arm so he can feed receivers accurately in the short-medium game.  Every offseason our plan changes, there's no consistency.  

 

We draft Moss as a power rusher, but don't use him like that.  We sign Hines who's prolific in receiving, and say sign him with that stated intent, but don't use him.  It was ridiculous.  There are other examples, including once again drafting a Moss clone in essence in Davis this year.  Are we really going to a power rushing game?  What about all the hype over Cook.  (rhetorical)   Anyway, that's a lengthier conversation.  Let's stick to the core topic here.  

 

You make the statement ... "To me Josh’s arm strength is ..."   That suggests that you're trying to see things a certain way.  I try to lay all of my preconceived notions aside and look for evidence.  

 

 

 

We can do that, in fact, I was going to put together a montage last season of all the plays, but I couldn't sign up for A22.  The highlight reels only have some of them.   

I'd recommend picking a game, watching it, and looking at what ALL of the receivers do, WRs, TEs, RBs, and then watch where Allen goes.  You won't have any difficulty picking them out.  The ones he overlooks are the ones he's going to have to start hitting this season the way things are panning out.  

 

BTW, in line with this, yesterday I just catalogued each and every pass to Coleman from last season.  I'll tally them up by type, but as I originally pointed out, lots of bubble-screens.  Most of his passes were caught within a few yards of the LoS.  Again, I'll break it down when I have time.  I stayed up way too late doing that.  

 

On top of that, here's a bonus topic.  The narrative is that Diggs lost a step.  I'm not seeing that, at least no so drastic that from game 10 to game 11 it plummeted, as in off a cliff, according to that narrative.  But if that's true, then as the season went on, he should have gotten slower, not faster.  

 

Watch the last regular season game highlights, the @ Miami game and pay attention to the Diggs only highlights.  And then tell me what you noticed?  

 

Do you have an source for every game last season?  I don't think they're on youtube.  If you do, let me know, I'll put together that montage video for you.  

 

 

I think we all love Josh, but his improvement will come when he uses the entire set of weapons at his disposal and does do all over the field as you suggest.  And if Coleman can make big plays out of bubble screens, fine by me.  Bring the D up closer to the line then let Samuel or Shakir get behind them.  I think we have more weapons than many are giving credit for.

 

Diggs to me fell victim to two things:  1.  Brady wanting to diversify the offense more and 2. while I have no proof,  I suspect Josh was sick of dealing with him and let McD and Beane know.

[Alphadawg7]

55 minutes ago, FireChans said:

See I said:

 

“The back to back champs have invested a lot more at WR than we have. Same with their opponents in the Super Bowl”

and then you make your gibberish post about weapons. I didn’t say weapons. I said WR. Read the posts you’re responding to before you waste your time writing 3 paragraphs I’m not going to read.
 

And CEH was a horrific pick. They certainly should have took Tee Higgins, which I said at the time. So good one?

 

Bahahaha...so lets recap your hilariously absurd stance of KC has done more for Mahomes than Bills have for Allen rant:

1. Chiefs over the past 5 years are geniuses and done more for Mahomes by investing 4 picks in the first 2 rounds over the past 5 seasons in Clydes Edward Helaire, Skyy Moore, Rashee Rice and Xavier Worthy.  And one of those was a RB in the FIRST ROUND.  
2. Bills are losers and done way less for Allen by ALSO investing 4 picks in the first 2 rounds over the past 5 seasons in Diggs, Cook, Kincaid, and Coleman.  

And you make this claim because Kincaid is "not a WR"?  Your point is so flawed and stupid that I cannot even believe you're still trying to argue it.  I mean I do because its you, and its what you do when you go down one of these rants based solely on your biased agenda than facts, but even still I am still a bit surprised you're still trying.  

 

The funniest part is that you are trying to do so by disqualifying Kincaid as a weapon because he is a TE when in fact the best weapon on the other team in question is literally a TE.  Especially when Kincaid was drafted to literally be a receiving weapon and as they put it, "Our Kelce".  

 

Tell you what...go find any one person over the age of 3 years old who would take CEH, Moore, Rice, and Worthy over Diggs, Cook, Kincaid, and Coleman.